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Talk:Seckinger High School

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Did you know nomination

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Evrik (talk) 15:33, 31 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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Created by Aoidh (talk). Self-nominated at 13:18, 11 July 2022 (UTC).[reply]

  • New article (from today) that's long enough and neutral. Suitably referenced. Earwig is happy. Nominator is QPQ-exempt (one credit thus far; currently three nominations open). Easy-to-fix article issues are that it says that the opening of the high school created approximately 200 new jobs (which doesn't make sense as the school isn't open yet) and the WP:SEAOFBLUE of the lead sentence. With regards to ALT0, I'm not sure about the tense given that the school isn't open yet. Other than that, the hook fact itself checks out.
  • @Schwede66: Thank you for reviewing this. I based the lede on Amador Valley High School, a FA so I kind of followed its lead on the lede sentence, but I'm happy to adjust the over-wikilinking, I'm just unsure which should be unlinked. As far as the jobs, the school opens in less than one month; the positions have already been filled and the faculty and staff have already started working. There were tons of articles about the hiring of various faculty and coaches that I opted not to include because of the WP:SCHOOLS consensus that only the principal should generally be mentioned in high school articles. As far as tense, I used present tense because the school is built and faculty in place, they just haven't opened to students yet, which is the only future tense I used, but the curriculum is already in place and students have already selected their courses per this timeline (which shows dates based on which high school they previously attended, if any) which is why I used present tense for the curriculum. - Aoidh (talk) 22:45, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done - I rearranged the lede to remove the consecutive wikilinks, and added a sentence about the staff being currently in place, and just waiting for students. - Aoidh (talk) 15:01, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Aoidh: The article says that the curriculum focused on AI, but does not say that it is a theme. (I'm an educator, and there's a difference between the usage of those terms in edu-babble.) Can this fact be added to the article and cited? Thanks, Z1720 (talk) 13:32, 29 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Z1720: I can absolutely do that, I’ll add the source as soon as I get back home. - Aoidh (talk) 16:28, 29 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Z1720: The source already attached does say "The school will be the first to introduce curriculum with an artificial intelligence theme" so I don't think an additional source is necessary, but I did rewrite the sentence in the article to match and reflect the theme language. - Aoidh (talk) 17:41, 29 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

City limits

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@Aoidh:

Hello! Ive read your edit summary.

Actually overall practices across multiple articles such as Attempted assassination of Donald Trump (see talk page, did not happen in Butler, lead says it was near Butler), Columbine High School (no, it's not in Littleton despite being reported as being in Littleton), at Talk:ENSCO, and at Talk:Centennial Airport show that a place absolutely must be within the legal city limits to be described to be in the city. In Centennial Airport's case, it's quite a considerable distance from its USPS "city".

There are cases where someplace in one city has a different "city name" in the USPS address, because "The U.S. Postal Service establishes ZIP codes and mailing addresses in order to maximize the efficiency of their system, not to recognize jurisdictional boundaries."

I deliberately posted the ENSCO discussion to the OR noticeboard (Wikipedia:No_original_research/Noticeboard/Archive_14#Using_maps_to_determine_locations) to cover this base, and the solution arrived at the talk page was to have detailed information about where it really is, while still acknowledging the mailing address "city".

Wikipedia is about attention to detail and accuracy, and I use the ENSCO discussion as precedent, that it is within OR policy to do this, and it should be done.

It is, however, correct to say the place has a Buford mailing address or that it is near Buford. Either or both in the article's lede easily satisfy verifiability requirements.

Also, in Georgia cities can annex. For a long time Emory University wasn't in Atlanta despite being described as such (this was documented on its talk page) but a 2018 annexation by Atlanta changed that.

WhisperToMe (talk) 03:31, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We use reliable sources to determine content, and a place absolutely must be within the legal city limits to be described to be in the city is not accurate on Wikipedia or in general American English usage, especially when reliable sources contradict this. The lone uninvolved comment in that 2010 ORN thread supports this. With one exception that I could find, sources do not describe this as being near the city. The only thing I could find that describes it as near the city is a journalist at Atlanta News First. Every other reliable source I could find describes it as being in the city, which includes the school, the school system, local news such as the AJC and Gwinnett Daily Post, national news like CBS news and Yahoo Sports. - Aoidh (talk) 04:16, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Im happy that you found the source that states "Seckinger High School, located near Buford in the Hamilton Mill area,[...]" because that is a valuable local source that distinguishes the location precisely. When one has contradicting sources the editors need to account for them. I am aware many others from various entities say "in Buford" but in this case it's an either or, and the maps support the "or". Anyhow, to respond to the arguments :
1. When there are multiple talk pages where editors agree on outcomes, that's a strong indication that this is the practice and precedent in the English Wikipedia. These discussions, including the 2010 ENSCO one, Emory, and the Trump incident had input from longtime, savvy editors. They considered the policy and the evidence presented.
2. Editors know why multiple reliable sources defer to the USPS postal names (out of convenience). All of the other sources quoted above are just relying on the USPS. In this article, the Mayor of Butler understood that the Trump incident didn't happen in his city (local sources often are more accurate about these aspects than non local or national sources!), and yet multiple news articles will say it happened in Butler because the USPS address of the place uses Butler and the organizations just use that, even though it's clear the USPS doesn't consider municipal boundaries. Journalists and other entities aren't even trying to really check if it's in the city and/or are comfortable just approximating, which is why you don't find "near" comments in much sourcing, especially non-local/national sourcing.
3. Overall, Wikipedia editors have decided to be more precise and accurate than these reliable sources: Assassination of Donald Trump says that the attempt was near Butler, not in it. For years, the Emory University article said that it wasn't in Atlanta (until 2018's annexation)
WhisperToMe (talk) 04:30, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, im trying to determine which comment is the "uninvolved" comment? I'm going through ENSCO... WhisperToMe (talk) 04:38, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think I figured it out. The thing about the "Map maker" is that the map maker, the U.S. Census Bureau, created the very thing it is making a map of, the census designated place, the basis of various Wikipedia place articles since User:Rambot created the place articles in 2002. WhisperToMe (talk) 04:51, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see neither a strong indication nor even a suggestion of anything that would permit the discarding of the majority reliable sources which do not align with a specific definition of how places are described. It's not an issue of accuracy; that something is not within the municipal jurisdiction is not the only way to assess how a location is described, which is made clear by the abundance of reliable sources that contradict such a stance. This is especially true when looking at those reliable sources through the lens of WP:NPOV, and that includes the overwhelming majority of the local sources (with a single exception) and the school and district themselves. - Aoidh (talk) 06:13, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see Wikipedia practices not only through words on texts on what guidelines and policies say, but on outcomes made by editors who are aware of what policies and guidelines say and make decisions.
1. The editors who participated at Talk:Attempted_assassination_of_Donald_Trump/Archive_5#Location_of_incident_is_in_unincorporated_Butler_County,_PA know about NPOV et al, and the outcome of that decision is clearly on display in the article as of writing. I picked that article because it is well trafficked and scrutinized by the community, and so it is clearly in line with practices. The OR policy was considered in that editors determined which aspects of the real location were supported by secondary sources, and included those. That is also why I notified the OR noticeboard back in 2010, to get clearance on that matter.
2. So many articles say for example that Clemson University is in "Clemson, SC" and yet it is known to be flat out incorrect. Here is an article not only explaining why that isn't correct, but also the implications of governance and why it matters. No matter how many articles saying Clemson is in "Clemson, SC" one finds, they cannot outweigh this article's conclusions. Similarly it mattered that Emory wasn't really in Atlanta as that made it difficult for them to get a light rail line, and before 2018 it was not correct to say they were in Atlanta when they weren't yet in Atlanta. Additionally, in regards to the Trump incident, the mayor couldnt do much partly because the incident didnt even happen in his own city.
3. In my view this isn't NPOV here, but an issue of fact. For example, it is a fact that the Trump attempt didn't happen in Butler, PA no matter how many reliable sources say it did (that's why "near Butler" is used). It is a fact that Clemson University isn't in Clemson, and the Clemson city government is very frustrated that they can't tell the university what to build / what to do as the university is in its own jurisdiction. With that in mind, it cannot be said that the university is "in Clemson" no matter how many articles say it is.
If it helps I can alert the OR noticeboard and get further feedback in this section.
WhisperToMe (talk) 11:46, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What is being described is WP:CONLIMITED. NPOV is one one the five foundational pillars of Wikipedia, and we cannot reject the majority of reliable sources because the information in them does not align with a particular interpretation of information that is contradicted by them. Reliable sources do not describe this article's subject as being near the town, but in it. The Clemson and Emory sources above describe municipal jurisdiction issues, which do not contradict or address the issues with these changes. ORN would not be the most accurate venue for this, but rather NPOVN. - Aoidh (talk) 17:03, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I just realized that Buford has its own school district that strictly follows the municipal boundaries. This isn't in the Buford school district. It's in Gwinnett County district, which covers areas not in Buford.
Editors can "reject a majority of reliable sources" when the facts are clear and the editors understand whats really going on with those sources. Editors discuss the matter in talk pages. They consider the evidence, they talk, talk come to a decision. Wikipedia actually has a statement that covers this:
  • "Policies and guidelines should be applied using reason and common sense. Technically, the policy and guideline pages are not the policy and guidelines in and of themselves. The actual policies and guidelines are behaviors practiced by most editors." (the italics are emphasis I added) ... this is why I stated to read the talk pages, to see the behaviors in action.
The municipal issues are inherent to this kind of discussion and why the distinctions are important. One cannot say Clemson University is in Clemson City when Clemson City complains that the university stuff is doing stuff the city doesn't like but the city has no say and no jurisdiction because the university isn't in the city.
Anyhow, I am open to starting an inquiry on an appropriate moticeboard. That is a step to resolve CONLIMITED.
WhisperToMe (talk) 18:17, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am aware of the Buford City School District, which only further refutes what you're saying; if "in Buford" only covered the municipal jurisdiction of the city which has its own school district, then the Gwinnett County Public Schools wouldn't describe their school as being in another school district. In order for your interpretation of what constitutes "in" or "near" to be accurate, not only would we have to ignore reliable sources, but those sources (which include the district and school itself) would have to be unaware of which district the school belongs to, which is not the case. The only way the facts are clear and support such a position is through the lens of a particular viewpoint of what should constitute a location, which is a viewpoint that is not supported by reliable sources or American English usage. This is a viewpoint, it is a minority one, and is incompatible with WP:NPOV. - Aoidh (talk) 18:54, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Gwinnett County stated : "Buford City Schools is a K-12 school system that serves residents living inside the city limits of Buford.". It really does only cover the city limits of Buford.
Gwinnett County schools is not describing Seckinger as being in another district. They operate it. They post the attendance boundary here. There's a big fat empty space where Buford city schools is, and Seckinger isn't there. Seckinger is cluster 18, in blue.
Why does the website say "Buford, GA"? Because the Postal Service uses that city name for the ZIP code. The reliable sources just go with the what the postal Service says.
WhisperToMe (talk) 19:10, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that's my point, they wouldn't describe it as "in Buford" if "in Buford" was defined as you are attempting to define it. They are aware of where their school is and describe it appropriately. This municipal jurisdiction definition is not used in American English and falls apart on examination of sources. We cannot set aside WP:NPOV and reject what reliable sources say just to enforce a non-standard definition for locations in lieu of what sources say. - Aoidh (talk) 19:14, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)I've added the word unincorporated, which should address your concerns about municipal juristiction while keeping the information in the article accurate, because using the word "near" is an WP:NPOV issue. "Unincorporated Buford" is a term used by reliable sources, though I cannot find one that specifically describes this school as such. - Aoidh (talk) 19:15, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Im fine with unincorporated Buford or Buford postal address or both! :)
The whole "near Butler" et al was just a simplification for an article lead, but I'm fine with these wordings.
Pennsylvania doesn't have unincorporated areas, but Georgia does.
WhisperToMe (talk) 19:18, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@WhisperToMe: Thanks, I don't think we'll be on the same page about the in/near issue, but I'm glad there was middle ground we could both agree on. - Aoidh (talk) 19:22, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Youre welcome!
As a note, Rambot uses Census Bureau data back in 2002 to form articles on American communities. The Census Bureau strictly defines cities by corporate city limits, and it used definitions of census designated places as the backbone for articles about those communities. The population statistics etc already use the strict city limits definition. (there are instances like Greater Katy and Katy, Texas being separate articles)
WhisperToMe (talk) 19:28, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I found that the Georgia Department of Transportation publishes highway maps which show schools directly alongside city boundaries. Seckinger HS isn't yet on this map (this is from 2022) but an updated one may have it:

  • "General Highway Map Gwinnett County Georgia" (PDF). Georgia Department of Transportation.

WhisperToMe (talk) 16:18, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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