Talk:Scouting in Somalia
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[edit] | This article was nominated for deletion on 13 April 2006. The result of the discussion was keep. |
Don't know if this warrants inclusion.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 05:31, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
Thank you for your edits on this, but WPMOS does not allow image galleries of this type, hence the strange image placement. And Scouting in the youth sense is always capitalized, like Muslim-it's a description of an action, but it has since become a proper name.
Also, thank you for keeping Somaliland clean!
Do you know how to say "Be Prepared" in Somali? I am not satisfied with just the Swahili version, that's more Kenya.
Thanks!
--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 23:22, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
- Hi. WP:IG actually does allow image galleries in such situations since the important historical badges here (viz. Italian Somaliland, British Somaliland, Arab Scout Region) cannot all be accommodated within the text. It's also common practice on the scouting pages (e.g.). As is, the layout is quite distorted, contra MOS. The text also mixes up the modern-day Somaliland region with the former British Somaliland protectorate of more than a half century prior, and seems to insinuate that it is separate from Somalia itself. Additionally, the Sanaag region where the new scouting organization was formed is presently administered by the Puntland administration, following the latter's official incorporation of the coextensive Maakhir region [1]. There was also at least one dead-link [2]. I have corrected all this. Cheers, Middayexpress (talk) 06:18, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
- Hate to keep undoing you, but
- the link you quoted states clearly "Images in a gallery should be suitably captioned to explain their relevance both to the article subject and to the theme of the gallery"
- "Fair use images may almost never be included as part of a general image gallery, as their status as being "fair use" depends on their proper use in the context of an article"
- As I said previously, Scouting in the youth sense is always capitalized, like Muslim-it's a description of an action, but it has since become a proper name.
- Further, what is the point of linking the Ethiopian article? The template at the bottom is a suitable link.
- I've got to ask you to split your edits so some can be undone when incorrect, or else take your requested changes to the talkpage. This is a topic I know as well as anyone, and while some of your edits may have merit, other are not appropriate.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 13:31, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
- Wikipedians don't (or rather can't) undo other wikipedians. They can only undo user edits, which is the case here. Moving on, fair use images are actually usable in galleries per WP:NFG, but only on a case-by-case basis. The alternative is to include fewer such images in the first place ("The use of non-free images arranged in a gallery or tabular format is usually unacceptable, but should be considered on a case-by-case basis. Exceptions should be very well-justified and alternate forms of presentation (including with fewer images) strongly considered"). At any rate, there clearly are too many of them given the text length, and without a separate gallery section reserved for them, they are distorting the layout so they should be removed per the nfg policy. In your revert, you also inadvertently re-inserted the inaccurate claims about Somaliland controlling Sanaag and being a separate entity from Somalia itself. The dead-link(s) were likewise again re-inserted, and the See Also section is similarly empty of any internal links, yet there it is. Basically, the page as a whole looks like a trainwreck, like it originally did. No worries though; I've fixed it. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 14:17, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
- I'd say the logos are fairly important, justified for inclusion in this article per fair usage. I've removed the note about the capital of Sanaag, as you're right that Puntland seems to have abolished the region. By its very inclusion in this article, Somaliland is shown as part of Somalia. In regards to dead links, they should be marked as such instead of simple removal. I've found a wayback link for it. CMD (talk) 14:45, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, you reverted pretty much everything [3], except for a few superficial changes [4]. That includes the two sources that I just added indicating that Somalia took part in the 1967 World Jamboree as well as the actual translation of the Boy Scout "Be Prepared" motto into Somali [5]. Capitalization of the term Scouting -- a trivial matter -- is not a valid rationale for such wholesale reverts since that could easily be fixed without undoing all of the other necessary improvements. You also indicated that the "capital of Sanaag region note[...] Reads tangentially, and region is divided anyway", yet reverted right back to a version that describes the city in question, Ceerigaabo, as "Ceerigaabo, Somaliland". That's not neutral; particularly since Somaliland does not control let alone administer most of Sanaag. None of the cited links even mention that the boy scout organization in Sanaag was for the "Boy Scouts of Somaliland". Quite the opposite: one clearly indicates that "the Boy Scouts organization was formed in 2005 by the Sanag administration [6]. Yet, it's this same Sanaag region that you for some reason replaced with Somaliland. Furthermore, the layout once again runs afoul of MOS and other guidelines; especially WP:NFG, which indicates that either non-free images should be arranged in a gallery or "alternate forms of presentation (including with fewer images) [should be] strongly considered". Instead, the page is consistently kept unkempt. The (originally dead-linked) HSY page that you just wayback-linked to [7] is likewise neither reliable nor even in English. Can you provide a professional translation of much less personally WP:VERify what it says in Somali? It also doesn't help that that page contains a bunch of porn- and cheap laptop-related spam links in the comments section. Lastly, the expression in the article that "Somalia and Somaliland issued postage stamps with Scouting motifs in 1999 and 2003" is most certainly not neutral because Somaliland is a part of Somalia to begin with. The cited SOSSI link where the Somaliland postage stamp is mentioned also indicates that the Somali Republic (i.e. Somalia, formally) published scouting stamps. How neutral would it then be to write here without further qualification that "Somalia and the Somali Republic issued postage stamps with Scouting motifs"? Not neutral at all, just like the present situation. Same goes for Puntland, which is mentioned on the same scouting webpage as having issued a cinderella stamp of its own. Interesting that this, by contrast, isn't mentioned anywhere in the wiki article. Middayexpress (talk) 10:44, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
- Don't know why you're saying "actually". My edit summary clearly started with "Rv." So it was a revert. Making a large amount of edits which includes shifting copyediting and formatting in one go makes the diffs extremely hard to sift through. The total status of Sanaag isn't that relevant to what to describe Ceerigaabo as, which is why I removed the capital note. Considering the source is the Somaliland Times, the Sanaag administration mentioned is presumably the Somaliland one, which is the only viable one, as Puntland has its own regions. The NFG just advises against galleries. It's not about inclusion/uninclusion. NonEnglish sources are allowed, and there's no indication it isn't reliable, especially as it works with UNICEF. You have an odd perception of neutrality if you see the sentence "Somalia and the Somali Republic issued postage stamps with Scouting motifs" as having any bearing on neutrality at all. It's simply odd redundancy, although it's definitely an interesting situation to have two different writings on stamps. Cinderella stamps aren't intended for circulation, they're similar special commemorative coins with ridiculously high denominations, and so often aren't included in general lists of stamps. I suppose it can be added, if you feel a cinderella stamp is notable. CMD (talk) 13:02, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
- The Somaliland Times covers a lot more than just Somaliland news, including both international news and domestic news on other parts of Somalia; so that's not a valid argument. Anyway, I'm not going to waste anymore time here arguing back and forth ad nauseam about the obviously non-neutral nature of these edits. I've queried on rs/n about the reliability of that HSY link. Middayexpress (talk) 14:29, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
- Don't know why you're saying "actually". My edit summary clearly started with "Rv." So it was a revert. Making a large amount of edits which includes shifting copyediting and formatting in one go makes the diffs extremely hard to sift through. The total status of Sanaag isn't that relevant to what to describe Ceerigaabo as, which is why I removed the capital note. Considering the source is the Somaliland Times, the Sanaag administration mentioned is presumably the Somaliland one, which is the only viable one, as Puntland has its own regions. The NFG just advises against galleries. It's not about inclusion/uninclusion. NonEnglish sources are allowed, and there's no indication it isn't reliable, especially as it works with UNICEF. You have an odd perception of neutrality if you see the sentence "Somalia and the Somali Republic issued postage stamps with Scouting motifs" as having any bearing on neutrality at all. It's simply odd redundancy, although it's definitely an interesting situation to have two different writings on stamps. Cinderella stamps aren't intended for circulation, they're similar special commemorative coins with ridiculously high denominations, and so often aren't included in general lists of stamps. I suppose it can be added, if you feel a cinderella stamp is notable. CMD (talk) 13:02, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, you reverted pretty much everything [3], except for a few superficial changes [4]. That includes the two sources that I just added indicating that Somalia took part in the 1967 World Jamboree as well as the actual translation of the Boy Scout "Be Prepared" motto into Somali [5]. Capitalization of the term Scouting -- a trivial matter -- is not a valid rationale for such wholesale reverts since that could easily be fixed without undoing all of the other necessary improvements. You also indicated that the "capital of Sanaag region note[...] Reads tangentially, and region is divided anyway", yet reverted right back to a version that describes the city in question, Ceerigaabo, as "Ceerigaabo, Somaliland". That's not neutral; particularly since Somaliland does not control let alone administer most of Sanaag. None of the cited links even mention that the boy scout organization in Sanaag was for the "Boy Scouts of Somaliland". Quite the opposite: one clearly indicates that "the Boy Scouts organization was formed in 2005 by the Sanag administration [6]. Yet, it's this same Sanaag region that you for some reason replaced with Somaliland. Furthermore, the layout once again runs afoul of MOS and other guidelines; especially WP:NFG, which indicates that either non-free images should be arranged in a gallery or "alternate forms of presentation (including with fewer images) [should be] strongly considered". Instead, the page is consistently kept unkempt. The (originally dead-linked) HSY page that you just wayback-linked to [7] is likewise neither reliable nor even in English. Can you provide a professional translation of much less personally WP:VERify what it says in Somali? It also doesn't help that that page contains a bunch of porn- and cheap laptop-related spam links in the comments section. Lastly, the expression in the article that "Somalia and Somaliland issued postage stamps with Scouting motifs in 1999 and 2003" is most certainly not neutral because Somaliland is a part of Somalia to begin with. The cited SOSSI link where the Somaliland postage stamp is mentioned also indicates that the Somali Republic (i.e. Somalia, formally) published scouting stamps. How neutral would it then be to write here without further qualification that "Somalia and the Somali Republic issued postage stamps with Scouting motifs"? Not neutral at all, just like the present situation. Same goes for Puntland, which is mentioned on the same scouting webpage as having issued a cinderella stamp of its own. Interesting that this, by contrast, isn't mentioned anywhere in the wiki article. Middayexpress (talk) 10:44, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
- I'd say the logos are fairly important, justified for inclusion in this article per fair usage. I've removed the note about the capital of Sanaag, as you're right that Puntland seems to have abolished the region. By its very inclusion in this article, Somaliland is shown as part of Somalia. In regards to dead links, they should be marked as such instead of simple removal. I've found a wayback link for it. CMD (talk) 14:45, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
- Wikipedians don't (or rather can't) undo other wikipedians. They can only undo user edits, which is the case here. Moving on, fair use images are actually usable in galleries per WP:NFG, but only on a case-by-case basis. The alternative is to include fewer such images in the first place ("The use of non-free images arranged in a gallery or tabular format is usually unacceptable, but should be considered on a case-by-case basis. Exceptions should be very well-justified and alternate forms of presentation (including with fewer images) strongly considered"). At any rate, there clearly are too many of them given the text length, and without a separate gallery section reserved for them, they are distorting the layout so they should be removed per the nfg policy. In your revert, you also inadvertently re-inserted the inaccurate claims about Somaliland controlling Sanaag and being a separate entity from Somalia itself. The dead-link(s) were likewise again re-inserted, and the See Also section is similarly empty of any internal links, yet there it is. Basically, the page as a whole looks like a trainwreck, like it originally did. No worries though; I've fixed it. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 14:17, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
- I've got to ask you to split your edits so some can be undone when incorrect, or else take your requested changes to the talkpage. This is a topic I know as well as anyone, and while some of your edits may have merit, other are not appropriate.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 13:31, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
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