Talk:Science fiction Western

Star Wars

Star Wars belongs here.

It contains western elements (obviously evil characters, obviously good characters, and others), along with sci fi. JONJONAUG 02:14, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

More of a space opera than a sci-fi western.. Highly influenced by means of folklore and Flash Gordon save for Han Solo. Anyways, you can't include every science-fiction that includes Western concepts for instance Cowboy Bebop is more influenced by the film noir of Blade Runner than by Westerns despite the insert/tagline of See you Space Cowboy.

Quintessential space Westerns would have to be The American Astronaut and Serenity. DrWho42 07:50, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm with DoctorWho42 here, Star Wars isn't really a Sci-Fi Western or a Space Western. The few elements of The Old West(TM) that it has are mostly centered around the planet Tatooine, otherwise it includes thematic elements from all accross the board, including various religions, old sci-fi serials, war movies, etc..--Raguleader 04:34, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Some elements of Star Wars definitely do belong here but not all. The Han Solo and Boba Fett films as well as Star Wars rebels do belong in Space Western and I'm sure other non-outer space elements can come here provided they have a western setting. I just need to find them but currently don't have the time.--Taeyebar 18:50, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

Firefly

Wasn't Firefly science fiction western as well? Shouldn't it be included in the television category as well? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.1.223.16 (talk) 18:27, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Nope. Read the description at the beginning of the article. Firefly is a Space Western, an obviously science fiction film with western elements, but taking place in a space setting. Science fiction Western's specifically take place in the past, albeit with often fantastic science-fiction themes. Firefly has been added at least a couple times in this article, but it doesn't belong here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.254.80.87 (talk) 07:14, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Wouldn't the same apply to Cowboy Bebop? Why does that belong here, but not Firefly? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.189.250.82 (talk) 19:22, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Restored from redirect

When this article was changed to a redirect, there was no specific reason given (nor any related discussion that I could find). But my assumption would be that the redirector intended that this should simply point to "Space Western". However, Sci-fi Western and Space Western are not one and the same (as was noted in one of the edits of the redirect). There really isn't a reason to redirect this - the article does need some work, but it can be re-worked to fix any underlying issues. ButlerBlog (talk) 21:46, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Merge

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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A science fiction Western is a Western story with science fiction elements. A Space Western is... a science fiction story with Western elements. I really don't understand why we'd have two different articles. Apparently, some people split hairs, but both articles claim that Firefly is a primary example of their genre. This just makes this obvious that reliable sources treat the terms as interchangeable. Almost all of the sourced commentary is at space Western, so we don't really need this article. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 04:52, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Support: Compatible and consistent content. —¿philoserf? (talk) 05:12, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Support merge Joyous! Noise! 17:15, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Oppose. Your description of what these two things actually are is faulty. They are technically different, even though laypeople (and, unfortunately, some who should know better) use them interchangeably. Space Westerns are futuristic stories, usually set in space, where the predominant element is the science fiction component. A science fiction Western is where the Western components take the forefront, such as pulp comics of the 50s and 60s. The lead of the Space Western describes this fairly well: Space Western is a subgenre of science fiction that uses the themes and tropes of Westerns within science-fiction stories. That's correct. In contrast, the lead to the Science fiction Western, as well as the article itself, are woefully inadequate to convey what the genre actually is, leading to the statement made to justify this merge that they are the same (that they are both a science fiction story with Western elements), when in fact, they are not. If you want to distill it down to such simple terms, then it would that a space Western is science fiction with Western tropes/themes, while a science fiction Western is a Western with science fiction elements. ButlerBlog (talk) 14:20, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

BTW, Firefly probably should not be in the science fiction Western article, although could warrant a mention due to it being discussed as an example that causes some confusion and or represents "bleed over" into elements of multiple genres. Using that as an example of why they should be merged falls into the trap of assuming they are the same. But more than that, it makes it even more obvious that as I noted above, the science fiction article is terrible (and in some example cases, quite wrong) and should be rewritten to convey a better understanding of what the genre consists of. But being poorly written and in need of a rewrite doesn't mean that these are the same thing. If necessary, I'll set aside some other things and work on a rewrite myself. But I would strongly oppose a merge. ButlerBlog (talk) 14:30, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Sounds like original research to me. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 03:07, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

There are sources that will give definition of one term or the other, but there are only a few places that you'll find a very direct statement that "space western is this and science fiction western is that". Scholarly sources are the best sources, and Lee Broughton is one of those film school lecturers who actually draws that direct distinction with some clarity. Quoting from Broughton's Critical Perspectives on the Western: From a Fistful of Dollars to Django Unchained, page 29:

The "science-fiction Western" proper, in which science-fictional elements are imported into traditional Western plots and settings, is a different cinematic enterprise: less frequently attempted than the space Western but with a much longer history.

The emphasis of the difference on "and settings" is not my emphasis - it's his - and that is the primary distinction between the two. If you refer back to my comparison, it's where the Western elements take the forefront that defines the sci-fi Western. That's what Broughton is saying. That "longer history" that Broughton refers to goes back to The Phantom Empire - arguably the first sci-fi Western (as noted by Douglas & Shea Brode in The Twenty-First-Century Western), which clearly would not fit into the genre of "space Western" (and I don't think I've ever seen a legitimate source that does). ButlerBlog (talk) 19:13, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Support, but maintain as separate section: I think @Butlerblog's quote is helpful in understanding the distinction. A western setting with sci-fi elements is a science fiction Western and this is distinct from a Space Western which has a space/sci-fi setting with western elements. However, this distinction could be covered in a subsection since a lot of other RS's frequently use the terms interchangeably. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 02:49, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

@Butlerblog: this discussion has been open forever. Do you accept that consensus is against you? Or do I have to go through the bureaucracy of requesting that an uninvolved administrator do a formal close? NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 04:10, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

@NinjaRobotPirate: Consensus in this case looks more like it's simply based on number of voices, the first two give no support to their support (i.e. there's no meat behind it). As I pointed out - with sources (and edited the article to identify) - there are RS's that clearly define the distinction between the two. But, I'll say that while I had intended to work more on the articles to make this clear, I haven't had time to really commit to working on both. I'd accept the merge for now based on @TulsaPoliticsFan's suggestion of a clear distinction within the article as well as consideration of a future split provided enough content could actually be written in context to justify a split. Right now, I'll agree, the article's do not make the clear distinction. ButlerBlog (talk) 11:52, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Striking some of my previous feeling about it. Given your initial comment of sounds like original research to me, I have now added three additional reliable sources that each specifically describe these as two distinct subgenres, and each of these sources explains the distinction between them. Additionally, one of those sources specifically addresses the confusion about Firefly, addressing what you noted in your initial comment suggesting the merge. Since that opening of the original tag, I have tried to clean up some of the mess between the two articles so the distinction is more clear (with sources). As far as consensus goes, if it's based solely on number of voices, one might think that consensus is against my opposition. However, not a single one of the support voices (especially the initial two) has given any material evidence for a qualified merge. Given that consensus is ascertained by the quality of the arguments, then that would be a pretty flimsy consensus, IMO. You do what you need to do and what you feel is right - I'll not oppose you, but I'll not support it either. Meanwhile, I'm going to continue to edit to clean up this mess the best that I can. ButlerBlog (talk) 19:28, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Further to the above, the post-apocalyptic Western and steampunk Western are offshoots of this subgenre, as now noted with additional sources. As I get this article cleaned up with additional sources, the distinction between this and the space Western are much clearer, IMO. To that end, I have also begun to go cleaning up the examples (which evidently were just a dump of someone's faves - which would explain your original comment about Firefly and probably others). Changing from a list to prose allows for each example to be expounded upon with details on why they typify the genre and gives some clarity to the distinction being made here. ButlerBlog (talk) 19:51, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:List of Western subgenres which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:34, 12 July 2023 (UTC)