Talk:Schunck

Expansion

I'm not sure if I represented the expansion of the shop opposite the church correctly. As I had understood, the house next door was bought and integrated with the shop. But http://www.aachen-webdesign.de/stamboom/herle.php?lang=nl says a house behind it was bought and everything was torn down and rebuilt. I'd really like to know how exactly this was done, how many houses were ultimately bought, also for the building of the Glaspaleis and how built-up the space was where that building was put and who it was bought from (part of the square from the city, I suppose). I believe it was largely empty - at least part of it was the market square, right?

A third source vaguely suggests that only for the expansion in 1893 the houses opposite the church tower were bought. DirkvdM 09:58, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

I sugested in the Dutch wiki that they one of the expansions might have expanded into the old lumberyard of the Francks' (family of the Schuncks via Anna Schunck (if I am correct)) that moved to the Willemstraat. I might want to check with, or even involve, Leo Franck who has an extened knowledge of the Schunck and Franck (well the Franck especialy) family history. I don't know how far removed (family whise) you (Dirk) are from Leo, but you might know him yourself, hell, maybe we have even met Mach10 10:19, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Please do involve him. Alas the people who would have known best are no longer alive, as far as I know. Former owner Christine Schunck would have been the best source, I suppose, but she died a few years ago. She was an aunt of mine. So, yes, I'm related to the Francks. I know the name, but I had to look it up in the family tree. There are too many to know and I hardly ever get to see them. The family is so extended it makes my head spin. The text I have shows that my greatgrandfather, Arnold Schunck (who was married to Anna Küppers), had a daughter named Christine Franck-Schunck, who had a son named Johan. Is that the branch you are referring to? By the way, I am the youngest son of Peter Schunck's youngest daughter, Carla van der Made - Schunck. DirkvdM 09:56, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

File:Schunck old shop before and after.jpg

The South house 'before' and 'after'

In old photographs I see that there were two houses. Alas most photos aren't dated. Both were opposite the church tower, each extending to one side of it. The shop proper was on the North side and the office was in other house, on the ground floor, with a stairway to the living quarters (which in turn led to the bedrooms above the shop) behind it. It had a narrower, but very similar looking, entrance. The houses are of different sizes, with the Northern (shop) house being lower but wider, but have very similar decorations. The entrances and decorations are too similar to be a coincidence. Another set of photos, however (in 'het land van Herle', which I have scanned), shows the Southern house 'before' and 'after'. It used to be much smaller, with two floors in stead of two. I'd say that if the two houses were torn down and rebuilt at the same time, they would have been integrated more, with the same height. So my guess is the South house was rebuilt in the style of the North house. But my mother says it was like two seperate houses - they had two of everything (two kitchens, two bathrooms). And that doesn't make sense if it was rebuilt. Alas she doesn't know anything about the rebuilding. That was way before her time. And while I'm at it, the shop was housed in the ground floor and the basement of the North house. My mother calls that basement the 'old basement' and the one to the South housed 'her mother's basement'. To the back were the sewing workshops, with a sizeable flat roof (the fronts of the houses had saddle roofs), big enough for the children (including neighbourhood children) to play on (cycling around), despite a glass 'thatch' in the middle (to illuminate the work shop below). DirkvdM 19:50, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and that later set of photographs that shows the South house says that it used to be pharmacist Knittel's house, so that was not the shop. But it also says that the later photo is of Schunck's shop, which is not correct afaik. So is it reliable? Then again, it could be that the shop was first there and then moved to the North house when the houses were rebuilt. But then the original shop would not really have been at the the market, because that was at the Church Square, not the smaller square to the South of the church. According to my mother. But that was also somewhat before her time. Or was it? Oh dear, this is also making my head spin. DirkvdM 19:53, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Come to think of it, I'll upload that set of photos. The one on the left is from before 1900, so copyright should be no problem, and the other one looks old enough too.
Note that the size of the North house in the lef tphoto is about the same size as it was later, so maybe that is already after that was rebuilt. Alas it is not better visible. DirkvdM 20:37, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

From 'het land van Herle' (translated): In 1882, Anna and Arnold moved to the Church Square, where they bought an old building. In 1894, behind that building, a new one was built, after which the old 1882 shop was torn down and replaced by a new one. Over time, one managed to buy all houses West of the church, until the 'Vlot', so that the Glaspaleis could be built there. DirkvdM 20:50, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Expansion 2

How much bigger was the Glaspaleis compared to the former shop opposite the church? My guess is at least four times bigger. Since the old shop was kept in use, the expansion was considerable. So where did the clientele come from? Was this expansion at the expense of other businesses or was it simply a matter of the growth of Heerlen, both in number of residents and economically? DirkvdM 09:58, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

I've found one answer: from 1900 to 1930 the population of Heerlen increased five-fold. That's quite impressive, but it still isn't a sufficient explanation without income figures. The miners got relatively good salaries in the middle of the 20th century, but at the beginning the pay was quite low I believe. DirkvdM 11:41, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Expansion 3

In 'Glaspaleis - van warenhuis tot cultuurmarkt', p 27, it says that after the mines, on which the business relied rather heavily, closed, Schunck had to rent out the Glaspaleis. This suggests a downturn in the business, but what the book doesn't say is that Schunck moved to a bigger building at the Promenade. Which comes down to even further expansion. So what gives? DirkvdM 10:29, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Shopping windows

Different sources give different versions of who introduced the shopping windows in the shop across the church; Arnold or Peter. Does anyone know when these were put in? Before or after 1905? DirkvdM 12:38, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Did the market move from the Curch square to the Market square?

Two sources indicated that one reason to build the Glaspaleis was that the town's centre of activity had moved, according to one source from the church square to the market square. This makes sense, and I had wondered before why other sources mentioned that the old shop had such a good location, when the market square was around the corner. However, if the market was previously at the Church square, then that would have been a prime location. But neither source is very specific about this, so if anyone knows, please tell.

I had first asked this at talk:Glaspaleis, but here seemed more appropriate. Actually, Heerlen seems even better, and, better still, at the Dutch Wikipedia. Ah well, I can't get everything right the first time :) . Actually, come to think of it, I've seen photographs of the Market square under construction in the early 20th century. So all I need to know is where the market was before, on the Church square or on the Emma square. DirkvdM 20:47, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Family tales

This stuff isn't really relative to the article, but still interresting, so I put it here. If anyone knows any more about these family stories, please say so.

1) In the textile plant in Białystok, one of the brothers had been working in a hot machine room, come out all sweaty, asked for a pint of cold beer, finished it in one go and dropped dead on the spot. Sound like a tall story, but it sounds plausible - when you're overheated, drinking a lot of cold fluid fast is indeed potentially lethal.

2) Peter Schunck's wife once saw ball lightning come into a room, hover for a bit, and then go out the window again. Her story was never taken seriously, and only after her death did people find out that such things really exist. The poor woman was never believed.

3) And now for a real tall story. One ancestor of mine (not sure if this is the Schunck branch - could have been Cloot or Prickaerts) was a hunter, hunting with bow and arrow (so this must be quite some time ago). One day he wanted to shoot a bird, missed, and waited for the arrow to return. Which he didn't see coming because it was heading straight for him and hit him in the eye, which he consequently lost. Now it happens that he was engaged, so he went to his wife-to-be and said he couldn't keep her to her promise because he was now so deformed (and less capable to make a living, I guess, which must be a major consideration where there is no decent social security, unless he was a rich hobby-hunter, which is quite possible). But she said that that didn't matter because she loved him for who he was, not for how he looked (or something along those lines). Now isn't that romantic? And especially important for me because my very existence much later depended on this romantic decision. :) DirkvdM 12:37, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Looking through some family papers I've found the identity of the hunter. It was Peter Joseph Prickaerts (1808-1894), my great great grandfather (more precisely my mother's mother's mother's father). The Prickaerts family was rather well to do, I believe, so hunting was probably indeed a hobby. Actually, the Cloot family (my grandmother) was also quite rich. And she married a rich businessman. So why am I not rich? Long live socialism, which forces me to work for a living in stead of living off an inheritance. :) Well, actually, I receive unemployment benefit at the moment, so one could say the Netherlands has become my wealthy family. DirkvdM 15:15, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Thirty (cloth)

I tried to find out what that cloth named 'thirty' is and posted the following question at the miscellaneous refewrence desk, alas without a conclusive result, but maybe if someone wants to find out, this might help:

Googling "thirty cloth" just gives too many results with the number thirty. Can anyone think of a beter way to search for info? I could of course try to ask a weaver, but there aren't too many of those around anymore. Arnold Schunck wove only wool and thirty, so it must have been of some importance. DirkvdM 21:21, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I looked too. I suspect it was a local name for a denim or jean workcloth, produced at the time. The number probably refers to weight, ie. something weird like 30 stone per roll. This article is very interesting. [1] --Zeizmic 22:17, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

okay, I'm more convinced than ever that is was a weight, most likely the cut system, and the cloth was a 30-cut, as shown here [2] --Zeizmic 00:32, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

this site speaks of "Cotton yarn 10/s, 16/s, 20/s, 24/s, 30/s, 32/s carded, combed waxed and un waxed". But textiles/hemp_reports.htm this site (http://www.bioregional.com/programme_projects/pap_fibres_prog/hemp textiles/hemp_reports.htm - link doesn't work because of space) says "extremely fine hemp yarn at 30 Nm is apparently produced in China." Nm means Joule (at least, I suppose that's what's meant), which is the unit for energy, so maybe that refers to the cloth's strength? I can't find anything conclusive. Alas not enough to base an explanation (or even an article) on. Yarn and textile manufacturing don't help either. I really want to know this now. DirkvdM 09:49, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

From a 1949 newspaper article (Gazet van Limburg of September 1949): "tiertey, a special cloth for skirts, as it was known in the South in those days, and which now rarely, for example during Maaastricht's carnaval, fetched from the attick. No-one remembers exactly how the word should be spelled, but it attest to the good quality that, although no-one wears these skirts anymore, they are still used, albeit only during these 'dolle dagen'." I won't add this to the article yet, but now I have a new spelling I could try for a further search. DirkvdM 10:22, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Spliting it up?

This page is getting very long, shouldn't we consider a split up, surely Arnold would deserve a page of his own. There could still be a central family page afcourse, but less extensive. What are your feelings about this?Mach10

I agree mainly because an article about a family business is currently categorized as person, and that's very strange. Either the article is split or the categories should be removed. C mon 15:52, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I have added this page to the Dutch families category, but still I believe it should be splitMach10 23:01, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

This is an article about the business, not about the family. So the business stuff should remain in here. If you take out the info about these people, without removing info essential to the business, you won't reduce the size very much. Still, both Arnold and Peter might deserve a separate page, and there's probably much more to be said about Peter (who was quite a well known person locally), but the info here isn't really enough for much more than a stub.

Also, this article is not likely to grow much more. Although it could do with a bit more about the Christine Schunck-period. It's big, but not that big. This may be a personal thing, but I rather dislike info that's split up in little tidbits. I prefer to have all related info in one spot. So I won't do this splitting up, but if you feel you could do a neat job, feel free. DirkvdM 07:21, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Translation

Of course this should be translated into Dutch (when 'ready'?). Maybe http://wikipedia.qwika.nl/en2nl/Schunck might be helpful, but I doubt it, considering the lousy translation. Eigenlijk is het meer komisch dan nuttig. DirkvdM 13:35, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Pierre Schunck's expansion

In a copy of the 'Gazet van Limburg' of 13 March 1948 I read that Pierre Schunck went to Bonaire because there were no expansion possibilities for 'his' factory in Heerlen. That sounds like SKIL, but afaik, he only became managing director there after he returned to Heerlen. Ironically, the article says the expansion was hindered by difficulties importing machinery. But in Bonaire he faced the same difficulties. DirkvdM 20:17, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Tidbits moved from article comments

I had added some bits of info, commented away, to the article, but it makes more sense to put them here:

Nikolaus had 7 children - Nicola, Anna Maria (1833), Wilhelm (1839), Arnold (1842), Severin (1843), Joseph (1844), Ludwig (1845). In the first issue of 1984 of 'Het land vna Herle', however, an article speaks of sisters (plural) of Arnold.
Arnold had 6 children - Peter (1873), Christina (1875), Arnoldine (1876), Emma (1879), Louise (1882) and Anna (1884).
And Peter had 11 children (!), of whom the last one (Carla) is my mother.

The name 'Schunck' is German dialect for 'ham'. Presumably, ancestors bred pigs because there was a tax advantage to that. So they had a lot of ham hanging around in the house and were named after it. So my mother's name is really 'Carla Ham'. :)

DirkvdM 09:28, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Sources for the 'Land van Herle' article (written by PJA Schunck) were L v Hommerich, Aspecten uit het Heerlens zakenleven, 1870-1900. De textielhandel Schunck. In: de Maasgouw, 1951, 55-58. Maybe I should read the sources for my sources too. :) DirkvdM 20:55, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Severin-Joseph = Joseph?

Different sources confuse me as to who stayed behind in the old weaver's shop in Kettenis. One source says it was Severin-Joseph, and another says Joseph. Confusingly, therre are two brothers, Severin and Joseph, but it may well be that Severin-Joseph was called Joseph. That was not uncommon in those days it seems. For example, Arnold's full name was Johann Arnold. DirkvdM 09:33, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

New Orleans plans

Different sources give different suggestions concerning Anna's attitude towards emigration to New Orleans. One suggests she liked the idea, another says she was afraid the money would soon run out 'if the two brothers had their way'. But it isn't clear about what. Also, I'm curios to know what Ludwig did. Did he go to the US? DirkvdM 10:24, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Maps

A reminder to myself: add maps for the locations of the different shops and expansions. For the first one there is a map in the first issue of 1984 of 'Het land van Herle', which I have photographed. DirkvdM 10:29, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Peter Schunck

In case a separate article is one day to be written about Peter Schunck, some facts here:

• he had 11 children and 52 grandchildren (of whom I am the youngest). Another source says 53, but maybe that includes a stillborm not on my list. His first two sons were called Pierre and Leo. A third son was to be named Arnold, so the next two (the 8th and 9th) were, but both died less than a year old. So the next child, a girl, was called Arnolda.
• he was married to Christine Cloot, a daughter of a marriage of two well to do local families, Cloot and Prickaerts. And her father's mother (Maria Elisabeth Snoeck) was said to be the richest girl in Limburg. How much money Christine brought into the marriage, and how much this helped the rise of the Firma Schunck, I don't know. However, when the Glaspaleis was built, Peter regularly came upstairs to get some more money from the household pot because someone had to be paid, so it was not like they were swimming in it.
• after his wife died, he instantly started deteriorating and died 10 months later (in the St Joseph hospital), apparently of lovesickness.
• he filled many functions (vervulde vele functies). Most notably, he was a member of the St Caecilia church choir. And 'protector' (beschermheer) of the royal harmony St Caecilia. For many years he was a member of the board (bestuurslid) of the Vincentiusvereniging and to his death member of the board of the Savingsbank Pancratius (Spaarbank Pancratius).
• from the pope he received the decoration Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice (not personally, I suppose :) ).

DirkvdM 06:20, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Pierre Schunck

And while I'm at it, some details on his son, Pierre Schunck, from the obituaries in a newspaper Limburgs Dagblad 9 February 1993):

• he died at 87 (1906/03/24 (Heerlen) - 1993/02/02 (the Schuncks have a tendency to get very old) in Schaesberg. But because of his marriage to Gerda Cremers from Valkenburg (1937), he lived mainly in Valkenburg. There he was co-founder, former chairman and honorary board member of the public library, former chairman and honorary charman of the brassband (harmonie) Kurkapel Falcobergia and commissioner (commissaris) of Valkenburg-Omhoog (Valkenburg-Up).
• he was leader of the Valkenburg resistance. At his laundrette, somewhat excentrically located at the Plenkert, quite a number of illegal transactions took place and many people went in hiding there.
• he was buried at the cemetary at the Cauberg in Valkenburg. In the caves under and around that cemetary, he had himself been in hiding for some time during the war.
• for his work in the resistance he received the 'Verzetsherdenkingskruis' (resistance conmemorance cross). I'd like to know when he received this, because the resistance members had decided to keep quiet about their work and even when Lou de Jong wrote his famous history of the Netherlands in WWII, he could get little info. Maybe it was just known that he had led the resistance but little else. More information on the Resistance in Limburg: "Het verborgen front, (The Hidden Front) History of the organised resistance against nazi occupation in the Dutch province Limburg during World War II." Excerpt in English at http://dissertations.ub.rug.nl/faculties/arts/1994/a.p.m.cammaert/

Actually, combined with the info in the Valkenburg resistance and Schunck's Kledingindustrie Bonaire articles, this could be enough for a separate article on him. Ironic, since Arnold and Peter are more notable figures, but they've got this article. Adding all the info on Pierre here would not be right either because it's not about Schunck proper. DirkvdM 06:57, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

About that story about him being transported to The Hague because he had guns hidden in his launderette, I've heard something about him quickly writing an address or name or such of a contact person in The Hague in his hand. I believe it was given to him by the Valkenburg police, who werre 'on his side', though I don't know if that was out of respect or because they knew he was in the resistance. DirkvdM 07:19, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I published an interview with Pierre Schunck on his Resistance activities at Pierre Schunck: „One didn’t decide to join the resistance“, which answers these questions. Arnold Schunck, his son

More info

I have many copies of newspaper clippings with info that I am presentely adding to the article, especially about the later warehouse at the Promenade. Most of the info is already in the article, but one clipping, from 'De Nieuwe Limburger' of 15 September 1964, has loads of info about the layout of the Promenade store that is too detailed for an encyclopedia article. I added some of it to give an idea of the size of the store. DirkvdM 20:15, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

The Promenade store front door

In two newspaper articles I read that during the opening of the new store at the Promenade the main entrance door was lowered into the ground by turning a lever. Was this another innovative idea or just a gimmick for the opening? DirkvdM 18:18, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Initiative for the Promenade store

In an article of 'De Nieuwe Limburger', 17 Spetember 1964, I read that governor (commissaris van de koning) Ch. van Rooy had taken the initiative for the building of the new store at the Promenade and that mayor Gijzels had seen it through. What gives? How can other people than the owners take the initiative. leo Schunck said this in a speech. Was he just overcomplimenting them for their support (giving licenses and such)? I assume that what was meant was that they had taken the initiative for the Promenade shopping boulevard. DirkvdM 18:26, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Promenade store shopping area

An article in 'De Nieuwe Limburger' of 15 September 1964 says the total shopping area of the Promenade store was 12.500 m², but an ad by Schunck says it was 20.000 m² and given the other figures by the newspaper that makes more sense (see the table in the article). 6 shopping floors at 3000 m² means a total of 24.000 m². Subtract the counter areas and 1500 m² for the lunchroom and 20.000 m² sounds about right. So I changed that value in the table. But I'd still need to check this to see what's right. I just noticed another error - the total power of the lamps is said to be 1300 kWh. Silly me, I blindly copied that (and it turns out the reporters blindly copied it from the press release). kWh is not a unit of power but of energy. Since I don't know what was meant I'll drop that bit of (mis)information. It sounds plausible that kW was meant, but it is suggested that the 5600 lamps consume this 1300 kW, which would mean about 250 W per lamp. Assuming fluorescent tubes were used, that is way too much. What was probably meant is that the generators have a capacity to deliver 1300 kW, not just for the lamps but also for the escalators and such, but I'm not going to do guesswork. DirkvdM 20:57, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I now read in the press release that there are 120 generators. That's probably a typo that the reporters did notice, so I'll leave the 12 in the article. DirkvdM 09:02, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

In the second edition of the 'Promenade Post' architect Hoen is quoted to say the total floor surface of the building is 20.000 m², namely 6 floors of 3000 m² and one top floor of 1500 m². That doesn't calculate. Another thing that puzzles me is that the top two floors are said to recede a bit, but the sixth floor is nevertheless said to have the same surface as the ones below it. Maybe the outer walls on the lower floors are that thick. And google maps shows that the top floor recedes more than just a bit, which is why it is not visible on the photo taken from the ground. DirkvdM 09:43, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

De Faam

An article about the opening of the Promenade store dealt with the advantages of 'collective buying', saying that Schunck buys (all?) its products through 'inkoopcombinatie De Faam'. However, I don't know since when that was, nor any further details, so I just mention it here. DirkvdM 11:32, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Another bit of info, from the Promenade Post: De Faam cooperates with similar companies in France, GAGMI, Groupement d'Achat des Grandes Magasins Independants, and in Germany, Rheinertextil (Cologne), because they know what best to buy in their countries. The header of the article says "with Schunck you profit from the EEC". DirkvdM 07:33, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

From Rijkheyt: "[Leo} werd bestuurslid van de Faam inkooporganisatie te Amsterdam, waarvan Schunck de grootste participant werd." DirkvdM 06:27, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Supermarket counter height

A puzzling bit in 'Uitkijk op de Mijnstreek' of 15 September 1964, about the 'surveyability' (overzichtelijkheid) of the supermarket: All counters are only 1,60 m high, just the right length (?) for a good view. Are the displays meant here? So one could oversee the entire supermarket, wherever one stands? Makes sense, but I'm not going to guess. DirkvdM 13:27, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Another article was clearer. I interpreted 'toonbank' as 'couter', but 'display' was meant. So I added the info now. DirkvdM 14:15, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Wassen

Something I want to delve into a bit more. I only briefly mentioned in the article, but I'm not even sure when this took place, so here's what I've read in the second edition of the 'Promenade Post'. Schunck had acquired the 'Wassen' business, as I understand it a clothes store chain, with shops in Amsterdam (Nieuwendijk, near the C&A store that burned down in 1963, four floors in a narrow building), Den Haag (120 m of shopping windows at the crossroads of Spui and Kalvermarkt) and Rotterdam (Dorpsweg, at the corner of the Katendrechtse Lagedijk, serving mostly the left Maasoever). These shops were only recently (so early 1960's?) acquired by Schunck, but that already showed. Wassen already had a good reputation in 'Holland' and the article suggests that soon it would have as good a name there as Schunck has in Heerlen. I had heard of an annex of Schunck in Amsterdam, but that that turned out to be no success because it was 'on the wrong side of the street' (I beleive that's how my mother put it). I had understood that maybe it was at the wrong (East) side of Damrak. But Nieuwendijk is now a major shopping street in Amsterdam. Maybe it wasn't then. DirkvdM 14:51, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Overview

Delving further into new info, I'm starting to realise that Schunck owned so many buildings and businesses that an overview would be handy. However, I'm not sure about the chronology, so until I get that right I won't put it in the article. I'll first make an overview here:

• 1866: Hauset
• 1874: the first shop in Heerlen, at the Willemstraat
• 1882: the second shop, the 'old shop', opposite the church, which expanded in 1894 and around 1900
• 1935: the Glaspaleis
• ????: Schunck's Kleding Industrie Limburg (SKIL)
• ????: Pierre Schunck's launderette in Valkenburg
• 1948: Pierre Schunck's Kledingindustrie Bonaire
• 1954: Schunck Geleen
• ????: houses to the South of the old shop, where the administration moved to and where Christine Schunck lived for a while
• ????: houses to the West of the Glaspaleis. These and the former were later torn down (to give the church some room). See below.
• ????: a shop at the North side of the Bongerd plus (connected to) the Markthallen
• early 1960's?: the Wassen clothes shop chain in Amsterdam, The Hague and Rotterdam
• 1964: the last main store in Heerlen at the Promenade
• 1966: the Hollandia cinema, the Lindor lingerie shop and the Promenade Restaurant next to the Promenade store (all three rented out) (1966 goes for the cinema - not sure about the other two)

I have copies of llustrating maps (wd160_7 ... 6672, 6676 and 6716), of which I will make my own maps. With that last map, alas, it isn't clear what was owned by Schunck - the marked buildings are the ones that were to be torn down. I wonder what was the total surface area of the houses that Schunck owned after the Promenade building was built, but before the other buildings were torn down (or sold). I still have to copy the text in that last article. DirkvdM 19:44, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Interview with Peter Schunck (competition from English cloth in 1920 and more)

Many sources tell of how the fall of the German Mark caused Peter Schunck to have to sell cloth he bought for 12 gulden for 80 cents. I suspect those sources have just copied each other (or one common source). But in in interview with Peter Schunck in the Gazet van Limburg of September 1949 (the occasion being the 75 year anniversary of the business) he says that around 1920 "inferior half-wool cloth, which was bought for 12 gulden per metre, was a bit later later driven off the market (van de markt verdrongen) by much better English cloth. Supplies worth tens of thousands of guldens were, as a result, suddenly worhtless, and it took a long breath (lange adem) in the days of the low post-war exchange rate of the Mark, when everyone could buy a suit for a mere 'rijsdaalder' (2.5 gulden) in Aachen, to survive as a businessman in Heerlen." This feels a bit constructed by the reporter, possibly mixing up stories. Anyway, I've given it a short mention, but if there was (stiff?) competition from English cloth, that could do with some more looking into.

And in the same interview it is mentioned that, once again, the shop turned out to be too small and there was again hammering and blocks of concrete. It speaks of extensions and renovations (uitbreidingen en vernieuwingen), which were 'tolerated' (gedoogd) by the official organs (officiele instanties) (are very crooked sentence). Was the Glaspaleis expanded in 1949? The glass that was destroyed by the last bombing was only replaced in 1949, so maybe that was meant? And the reason given for this is that the next Schunck generation was being very energetic. Had someone (Leo?) already started taking over the business? Later, however, the article says Peter was still in charge ("Schunck Sr., die de centrale directie voert").

To illustrate how much people liked to work for Schunck (well, it isn't exacly proof) the (1949) article mentions when certain people came to work there; the ladies H. Bour, E. Vleischeuer and M. Ploum in 1913, '24 and '12 respectively and the gentlemen J. Aretz, L. Kisters, J. Roumen, J. Smeets and van Dijk in 1914, '17, '13, '13 and '14. Peter jokingly says they generally only lose the girls when they get maried.

The 75 year anniversary was celebrated on 15 September 1949, but Arnold arrived in Heerlen on 25 August 1874. So what determines the start date of the firm? The article mentions Peter showing sales coupons, so maybe the oldest of these were taken as the starting date. 3 weeks to set up a shop sounds about right. Btw, the new Promenade store was opened on 16 September 1964, which may very well not be a coincidence - the 90th anniversary.

Btw, Peter also says that he prefers not the word 'employee', but 'servant' ('bediende') (with himself being the first servant) because they serve the public. But in English that doesn't quite sound right (although, literally, it acutally works better), so I won't put it in the article.

Also maybe worth mentioning, maybe in a later separate article on Peter Schunck, that he had been a church singer with the royal 'Harmonie St. Caecilia', at the Pancratius church since 1903 (and pretty much until his death, I believe) and that, for the 75th anniversary, he donated new costumes to the choir. And I believe i used teh word 'brass band' as a translation of 'harmonie' somehwere, but that doesn't appear to be the right translation. DirkvdM 10:15, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Elsevier's Magazine

In an article in Elsevier's Magazine there is a very puzzling section, which I will quote here literally, to avoid confusion: "Leo ging vroeger met zijn eigen autootje 'de boer op' om z'n spullen bij de wevers op te kopen en maakt vechtend een zaak die zijn vader had opgebouwd." This is meant as an illustration of the tough Schunck attitude. But it sounds more like Arnold, except that I don't know about him having a car (not too unlikely, though). Sounds interresting, though, so I'd sure like to know what is meant here. DirkvdM 20:05, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Business forms

Which forms of business organisation has Schunck had and what are those called? What (I think) I know is:

• ????: eenpersoonsbedrijf - sole proprietorship?
• 1900?: vof? - general partnership?
• ????: Naamloze Vennootschap - public limited liability corporation?
• 1972: Besloten Vennootschap - limited liability corporation?

Is this correct, what are the precise dates, is there more and are the translations correct? The latter is of course a problem because there will not always be an exact equivalent in Anglophone countries. DirkvdM 09:47, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Promenade floors

The complete list of items to be found at the different floors (as listed in the press release) is a little too much detail for the article, so I'll put it here (I got a bit tired of translating, so I kept some difficult ones in Dutch):

• basement: 7000 items, including meat, vegetables, fruit, dairy products (70 types of cheese), salads, wrapped fish and all sorts of products from almost all countries in the world, including jam from Scotland and the Balkan, soup from Denmark and England and caviar from Russia. And intake of returnable bottles.
• ground floor: pockets (Prisma, Beertje, Witte Raven, Salamander, Elsevier and Belletterie (philosophy, psychology, technical subjects)), stationery, chocolate, 84 types of candy, 140 types of cookies and biscuits, 125 types of bonbon, pastry, ice, luxury cookies (all from the own patisserie - or is that just the last three?), jewellery, perfume, leatherware, suitcases, umbrellas, stockings, socks, maillots, gloves, ladies- and gentsfashion.
• 1st floor: ladies-wear (patronen-bar, 'meter-waren', plastic en linnen tafelgoederen, pyama's, lingerie, huishoudelijk textiel, dusters en peignoirs, corsetterie), baby shop (buggies, cradles, baby and toddler clothes)
• 2nd floor: more ladies-wear: (fur) coats, dresses, blouses, skirts, bridal gowns, cocktail dresses, hats
• 3rd floor: gents (and boys): costumes, overcoats, raincoats, colberts, trousers, shirts, ties, shawls, socks, gloves, sportsclothes, company clothing (bedrijfskleding), tailor made clothing (maatkleding), (gelegenheidskleiding, bonnetterie), bathing suits
• 4th floor: 'woninginrichtingsstoffen': 164 types of curtains (on a 28 metre long 'showstand' with 82 'dwarsrails'), carpets, rugs, coco-carpets (cocostapijten) and linoleum. Toys. 'Veranderatelier'. Lunchroom (other half), with room for 180 at separated tables (this is mentioned often, so it seems to have been something special for those days). The 'specialite de la maison' is 8 different types of pancakes, served on big Delftsblauw plates. This is also somewhere called a novelty for the region.
• 5th floor: offices, 'offerte-kamers', 'calculatie-afdeling', planning, conference-rooms and teh canteen.

DirkvdM 14:45, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

web search

I googled several terms (and focused on what is relevant here, not possible relatives or something):

• schunck: 356.000 hits. Apart from 2 Wikipedia articles and the link below nothing relevant in the first 100 hits as far as I could see. There seem to be quite a few scientists named Schunck, though.
  • • aachen-webdesign (way at the end these days!?)

This needs to be narrowed down:

• • "christine schunck": 130 hits. Wikipedia and copies and aachendesign,
    • http://wikipedia.qwika.es/en2nl/Schunck funny translation into Dutch :)
    • http://home.scarlet.be/~p4u05323/sitemap.htm a copy of aachendesign?
    • http://www.rijckheyt.nl/upload/100/pdf/inventarissen/Inventaris%20archief%20familie%20Schunck%20(1874%20-%201997).pdf van rijckheyt, dus gemeente-archief
  • "chrisje schunck": no hits
  • schunck (in Dutch): 719 hits.
    • http://www.cuci.nl/~smcwfs/projecten/protest/nl.htm resistance Heerlen, something about Pierre
    • http://www.geleenpromotion.nl/leden/schunck.php Berden-Schunck ladies fashion in Geleen, with the Schunck-logo!?
    • http://www.parkstad.com/imag-nl/sngmid254.html just for the two images, of the two houses of the old shop
    • http://www.blindedarm.com/1706.htm mooi verhaaltje, over dat Schunck 'gewoon een cowboypakken-afdeling had' :) en een mij onbekende kreet: 'De Heerlense Mosseljprom' - is dat het Glaspaleis?
    • http://www.cultuurwijzer.nl/cultuurwijzer.nl/cultuurwijzer.nl/i000824.html a link from the previous hit, looks good, still need to read this
    • http://www.architectuurgids.nl/bouwwerk.htm about Glaspaleis, maybe read again for terminology
    • http://www.volkskrant.nl/kunst/article157082.ece/Zonlicht_straalt_weer_door_het_Glaspaleis Volkskrant article, nothing new
    • http://archief.volkskrant.nl/ the archives of the Volkskrant, via last site, many articles on schunck and glaspaleis, but reading requires payment, 9,50 euro per day, but the previous article is also here, but I didn't have to pay for the previous hit, so maybe there is a way to avoid that
    • http://www.tvvalkenburg.nl/14_september_1944.3689.0.html about Pierre in the resistance, including photos
    • http://www.binnenstadsmanagement.org/heerlen/nieuws.asp?id=118 nothing new, except "P. Noort, facilitair manager van het Glaspaleis, telefoon 045-5604519"
    • http://two.guestbook.de/gb.cgi?gid=342861&prot=gzglfp Arnold Schunck's Guestbook, no idea what to do with this
    • http://www.cultuurnet.nl/weblog/view-record.asp?show=6455&page=1 zegt dat 'glaspaleis in bronnen' ook in boekvorm te krijgen is, verder niets nieuws
    • http://www.xs4all.nl/~estevenh/geonet/fbem.htm there is a 'groeve Schunck' in Berg en Bemelen?
    • http://www.typischwonen.nl/jacqueline_van_oosterhout only for the photograph left bottom
    • http://w3.bwk.tue.nl/nl/adms/publicaties/ case-study glaspaleis, obtainable for 15 euro
    • http://www.wellernet.nl/data/files/algemeen/Wellermag_herfst05.pdf or http://209.85.129.104/search?q=cache:m-ybafsB8o4J:www.wellernet.nl/data/files/algemeen/Wellermag_herfst05.pdf+%22schunck%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=81&lr=lang_nl (html), about halfway, under 'mooi Schandelen' > nijverheid, it is suggested that maybe Arnold Schunck took over another business in the Willemstraat: "Jan Theodoor Eymael en zijn zoon Arnoud bouwden aan de Schram (Willemstraat) in 1862 een nieuwe weverij en linnenfabriek, waar de eerste met de hand bewogen machines werden gebruikt. Het was de voortzetting van een eerder in 1833 begonnen onderneming elders in de stad. De fabriek bestond maar tot kort na de dood van Jan Theodoor in 1872. De grote ondernemingen met nieuwere en moderne machines met een betere en fijnere kwaliteit linnen verdrongen het handgeweven product van de Eymaels. Onduidelijk is of de familie Schunck dit bedrijf met de weefgetouwen heeft overgenomen."
    • http://www.janmarijnissen.nl/2004/03/26/heerlen-maastricht-horst-roermond/ Jan Marijnissen vindt het Glaspaleis ook mooi. :) Verder niets interessants.
    • http://www.demijnen.nl/sjablonen/demijnen/pagina.asp?subsite=6&pagina=82 a Schunck ad in a miners magazine (click for bigger image).
    • http://2006.boekinbeeld.nl/?id=118 a video-impression of the Glaspaleis, but doesn't work for me.
    • http://www.zetel.nl/paginas_nl/actueel.htm nothing interresting, but the night photo is a nice idea to illustrate the transluminence of the Glaspaleis
    • http://www.archieven.nl/pls/m/zk2.aov?p_adt_id=62&p_aet_id=1&p_vast=0&p_nr=E&p_start=&p_eind= same as rijheyt above, I presume
    • http://new.glaspaleis.nl/site/load.php?page=61 one way to look through that site; change the numbers
    • http://www.sintermeerten.nl/projecten/protest/NARTIKEL/NLWIJ.HTM two children who interviewed 'mevrouw Schuck'. But the interview is not there.

Did the first 100, 600 more to go. :) (that smiley is not for real :) ).

This 'groeve Schunck' reminds me of something else, Peter Schunck had a piece of land, where people were in hiding in caves during WWII. I don't know much more about that than that he pretended not to see them when someone's head popped up out of the ground, saying 'good morning mr Schunck'. And when the germans found out, they told Peter to guide them in, so he took them to a bad entrance, poked the ceiling, which caused rocks to come down and said "I'm not going in there", to which the Germans were inclined to agree. Anyway, another link is http://www.xs4all.nl/~estevenh/geonet/100/index.html, but all sites seem to just mention it, without any further info or links. However, this one gives a map: http://web.inter.nl.net/hcc/Ed.Stevenhagen/groeven/index/GrveInx.htm. DirkvdM 20:09, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

In a newspaper clipping about the golden wedding of Peter and Christine (feb 1854), it says that in the church, the personnel of the quarry (steengroeve) in Meerssen was present. So that's where 'it' was. 'It'? Another newspaper clipping about the same event speaks of the personnel of the quarries (steengroeven) in Kunrade and Meerssen. So that's wherre they were. DirkvdM 14:34, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

• "hotel cloot": 28 hits
  • • http://www.parkstad.com/loadbig/imbig83.html a collection of photographs that gives a good impression of Heerlen in the early 20th century (use buttons at the bottom to navigate). This one shows Hotel Cloot, as does the next one. After 88 it doesn't work anymore, apparently due to a reorganisation of the site.
    • http://www.rijckheyt.nl/upload/100/pdf/inventarissen/Inventaris%20secretariearchief%20gemeente%20Heerlen%20(1913%20-%201918).pdf another page of Rijkheyt, just one mention, archive piece 526, comcerning a renovation (verbouwing) of the hotel.

Ook nog opzoeken: Hommerich

Additional info from Rijkheyt (City Archives)

From http://www.rijckheyt.nl/upload/100/pdf/inventarissen/Inventaris%20archief%20familie%20Schunck%20(1874%20-%201997).pdf (another bloody pdf that is driving me nuts!) some additional info that is not fit for the article, which isn't clear, or for which I'd first like some additional info:

• First of all, there are the photos, especially the first one, of Arnold Schuck at the age of 25. I wonder what that is in front of him and if the photo is made for that purpose (it's obviously a composition). But there are other photos I didn't know of either.
• Kettenich is in the old duchy of Luxemburg. So not Germany of Belgium? Or should that be former duchy?
• In Bruttich, a village at the Moezel a house from 1662 is known as 'Schunckse Haus'. Around 1650 near Bedburg 'family is known'
• Arnold had worked at factories? Although it doesn't say 'mechanised'.
• The original wanderpass appears to have been lost, but I believe I've seen a photocopy of it.
• Some uncertainty over who went when to Russia (Bjelostok - alternative spelling); one source says three brothers went, another says just two, plus Nicola's wife, a third source says four people went.
• One of the three loos Arnols started with was really old ('een echt erfstuk'), stemming from the bankrupcy of Clermont in Vaals.
• The herbs Anna sold were 'Kneipp-artikelen'. What is that?
• Note 13 is a bit unclear to me. One source speaks of 8 looms, of which 5 for for weaving farmers skirts (boerenrokken) and grey cotton (grauwe katoen) and 3 for wool cloth, but the same source (?) later speaks of 5 looms and one 'twijnmachine' (twine machine?). But about which year is this?
• The first 'kwitantieboek' (bill book?) is of december 1872 to august 1883, usually referring to Hausset. Did the business still officially reside there?
• Schunck immediately started advertising in the Limburger Courier (17 times).
• The farm at the Cuamerbeek was inherited by Arnold's daughter, Christine Franck-Schunck.
• The former pharmacist Knittel was nicknamed 'Achter de Toren' (Behind the tower).
• When they moved to the second shop behind the tower, they already had 5 employees!? That's additional to the orphans? Quite imporessive, just 8 years after they started with almost nothing. Does that include Mosterd, Merckelbach and Koolen, or were they added later?
• When they moved to the second shop, they had 5 looms and a twijnmachine. Were 3 looms left behind?
• In the Geerstraat 'balkatoen' (ball cotton?) was made. It is not certain of this was owned by Schunck. It may refer to the 'kofamagazijn' (frima A Schunck KOFA magazijn (Java-kapok)). Hold on, firma A Schunck? Didn't the firm come into existance when Peter took over?
• When weaving was stopped, cloth was bought from Monchen-Gladbach, Tilburg and Verviers. But in the article I wrote that it was bought from Monchen-Gladbach and Aachen (forgot the source for that). maybe this refers to different periods in time?
• Hommerich seems to suggest that the end of the manufacture of wool and the start of the manufacture of ready-to-wear clothing took place before 1882. Might this explain the reduction from 8 to 5 looms?
• About the 1893/94 renovation, literally: "De winkel werd tijdelijk in het oude huis naast café Verstappen, later café Lindelauf, ondergebracht. [...] Het pand Verstappen werd rond 1910 afgebroken. Ter plekke kwam een [...] nieuw gebouw, dat bij de bestaande winkel werd gevoegd." I assume that what is meant is that the café changed name (so the two are the same and not that the temporary shop was in café Lindelauf. I'm confused because of the sentence in Dutch and because 'former café Lindelauf' was (later?) also owned by Schunck. But if house Verstappen was added to the shop, then how can it in the 1960's be referred to as 'former café Lindelauf'? The only explanation I can think of is that it was Verstappen, at leats until 1893, and then changed name to Lindenlauf before it was added to the shop in 1910. But then why is it referred to as 'Verstappen' in 1910? Or maybe the proprietor of the café moved to another building in the same block and then changed the name of the café, and later that was also acquired by Schunck? Hold on, I know there was a café next door to the old shop because the daughters of Peter would use that to get in throught the back to avoid getting caught by their father when they had been out too late. His wife, who knew this, played along when Peter sat waiting with a reed to give them a good telling off (or how do you say that), and innocently asked him what he was doing, because his daughters were already back. :)
• After the move back to the renovated shop, in 1894, there was a sale.
• Around 1910, the firm was called 'Firma A. Schunck Manufacturen Dames Heeren en Kinder Confectie, Hoeden en Petten'. Letterheadings mention 'Firma A. Schunck / confectiefabriek manufacturen / en gros & détail'. Note the 'A', despite the fact that 'A' was already dead.
• The accumulated wealth was invested mainly in German mining- and metalindustry0shares in the region Aken-Eschweiler.
• According to friar Aloysius, Savelberg was the buyer of the herbs. But surely there were more? Which (kind of) business exactly Anna took over is something that is still not clear to me.
• van Hommerich says "rond 1900 besloot men tot het bouwen van een nieuw winkelpand nabij de kerktoren". What a confusion over something that should be easy to look up in the City archives. Surely, permits and such had to be obtained.
• Apparently, Anna (not Arnold) bought the houses where the Glaspaleis would be bought. This is the list of houses:
  • In 'Het Gatsje':
    • 'De Moriaan', waarachter de ateliers
    • sigarenwinkel Einerhand, waarnaast een modiste of hoedenwinkel
    • parapluwinkel Logister
    • Bakkerij Cox, later Lok
    • 't Vuile Hoekje
  • In de Bongerd:
    • kapperszaak en huis van Loo
    • houten loods en open plaatsje

But Logister's umbrellashop was never bought - that was why the Glaspaleis had to be built around it. Or have I been misinformed?

• "Met paardentractie werd Maastricht en de mijnstreek bediend." What on earth does that mean? Is that about the laundry that is mentioned in the previous sentence? Aand what kind of laundry was it anyway? I heard it was a 'stoomwasserij' (steam laundry), but I don't know what that means.
• The ownership of the marl and limestone quarries is concluded from invnrs 289, 300, 307 and 355. Maybe those will help to verify the story about the people in hiding.
• When did Peter become shareholder and secretary of the insurance company NV Heerlensche Glasverzekering-Maatschappij? Did that have anything to do with the necessity to insure the glass in his Glaspaleis?
• For the sources for the buses see invnrs 3, 446 and 'Heerlen van dorp tot stad' pp 29, 96
• About the plans for the Glaspaleis, it says that Leo had contacts with V&D about good architects. That sounds a bit odd to me. Why would V&D help their great competitor? He also travelled through the US and Europe, while Peter and Peutz travelled to Nantes and London
• For the Glaspaleis, Peutz was chosen, among other things to avoid issues with mayor van Grunsven (invnr 495, 3). The famous street affair played a part in this. I don't get this but at all. Note 54 seems desgned to clarify this, but doesn't really help;

In 1915 (and possibly already in 1914) a plan was introduced by C Canter and J Rutten (possibly on an initiative by Peter Schunck) to build a connecting road between Bongerd and Geleenstraat, for which they both got a permit. But because of material shortage in the war, the plan wasn't executed. After that, the City took over the plan. Schunck was prepared to share in the cost and V&D also cooperated. The construction of the new V&D (in 1921) and the Glaspaleis took these plans into account. To avoid misinterpretation, the literal text:

"Door de firma Schunck werden problemen tussen V&D en de gemeente omtrent het gemeenteriool oftewel het Vlot in den minne geschikt. Op 30 juni 1937 besloot de gemeenteraad een bouwverbod te leggen op de grond, die bestemd was voor de aanleg van de straat. Schunck was nog steeds bereid een geldelijke bijdrage te leveren voor de wegaanleg. Nadien zou blijken, dat in het bouwpan van V&D een passage was opgenomen, zodat B&W geen weg behoefde aan te leggen. V&D nam zelf contact op met Schunck, om in overleg een verbinding te projecteren tussen de te bouwen V&D-passage en de bestaande V&D-passage. In 1939 werd voorkomen, dat de gemeente een strook grond, genaamd Het Vlot, zijnde de toegang tot de passage van Schunck, verkocht zou worden aan V&D. De gemeente Heerlen streefde uiteindelijk een oplossing na in de richting van een passage in plaats van een weg, vanwege de daaraan verbonden kosten. Van V&D was geen medewerking meer te verwachten, hetgeen duidelijk bleek in 1939 en 1940. Allerlei onderhandelingen van Schunck leidden tot niets. Schunck zelf kreeg de indruk, dat de tegenwerking van V&D pas ontstond na de bouw van het Glaspaleis. Tenslotte vroeg Schunck in zijn bovenvermelde brief uit 1945 of de gemeenteraad genegen was de verbindingsweg te verwezenlijken met een geldelijke bijdrage van Schunck."

Interpretation: The location of the projected street was exactly over a sewer ('het Vlot') and in 1937, the City decided to put a building ban on that strip. V&D had already planned a passage (say, a narrow street?) and the City preferred that too, considering the higher cost of a street. So Schunck offered to share in the cost. But after the building of the Glaspaleis, V&D stopped any cooperation. Clarification: I'm still not sure what exactly 'het Vlot' is (is it the sewer or is it just that the sewer lies (lay) there?), but I've read that the extension of Schunck towards the back went as far as het Vlot. As I understand it, this 'Vlot' is at the back of the old shop and separates 'Schunck's block' from V&D (at least the southern half). Whether it extends any further at either end, I don't know.

Concerning V&D, I know that the family Schunck despised that company (shame on anyone who would ever have the nerve to buy anything there) and I had always assumed that that was because of Logister's umbrella shop, but now it turns out that there were more issues and also that initially there was actually coopration between the two busineses. Of course, the street was very important for Schunck because it had shopping windows there, which I assume V&D didn't have and probably couldn't build too easily either.

• Due to the lower iron prices, the building cost considerably less than planned. So less than 184,500 guilders (which was the bid ,not the actual price, right?)? Was this to the advantage of Schunck or contractor Knols?
• Peter's wife Christine justly foresaw that the glass would cuase temperature problems and would not be economical concerning 'vakkenindeling' and the display of the wares. Invnr 495. I thought temperature control was very favourable and that last bit I don't get at all.
• The fourth floor was temporarily reserved for the tailors workshop. What was it used for later then? And whaat did they do if Schunck no longer made clothes? Or was that taken up again?
• In 1941, the company clothing workshop was extended with a trousers section.
• In 1939, Peter bought the building of the Twentsche Bank, after which he owned the entire block. This made the construction of the road to the West side possible. How is that? Was that land part of the deal? And if so, then what did it matter, since Canter wanted to do this too? Btw, afaik, that building was called 'huize Canter' and Greet Canter was a friend of my mother's. Not sure about the connections. I'll have to ask her about that.
• To avoid misinterpretations, this bit literally:

Rond 1942 werd besloten het familievermogen veilig te stellen. Om te voorkomen, dat het kapitaal na overlijden van vader (Peter Joseph) verloren zou gaan, stelde men enkele algemene eisen op. Zo diende het vermogen veilig te worden gesteld tegen eventueel wanbeheer; er diende een scheiding te zijn tussen vermogen en prestatie; degene, die met de vader de zaak dreef, zou een goede beloning ontvangen en in de toekomst een zekerheid hebben, de zaak voort te kunnen zetten; de naam Schunck diende elk kind tot hetzelfde voordeel te strekken; ongewenste onderlinge concurrentie diende te worden voorkomen; iedereen diende een kans te hebben, om bij gebleken geschiktheid in de zaak te werken of de zaak te vertegenwoordigen. Vader bleef het heft in handen houden. Naast deze algemene eisen diende men rekening te houden met de huidige situatie. Een onderlinge samenwerking tussen Leo en Pierre Schunck en Arnold Käller werd uitgesloten. Leo Schunck en Chris Dohmen-Schunck streefden naar een te eigenmachtig optreden zonder controle door familieleden, hetgeen tot spanningen in de directie zou kunnen leiden. Arnold Käller wilde uit onderdelen van Schunck een eigen zaak beginnen.

But later, Leo and Chris would each own 1/3 of the shares, so what happened?

Vader wenste echter een rechtvaardige regeling voor al zijn kinderen: Chris zou vanwege haar verdienste volledige zeggenschap in Geleen krijgen en de opvolging aldaar in eigen macht hebben. Hiertoe werd een NV Geleen opgericht, waarvan zij de aandelen kon kopen met aandelen van de NV Heerlen; Leo zou een onaantastbare levenspositie in de NV te Heerlen krijgen, en een machtspositie, die de opvolging van zijn nakomelingen verzekerde; Pierre, die eerder was teruggetreden om de samenwerking van de directie niet te verstoren, wenste zijn positie van oudste zoon niet verloren te zien gaan voor zijn kinderen en claimde hetzelfde opvolgingsrecht als Leo.

Het probleem Pierre - Leo zou opgelost kunnen worden door de aandelen van vader in de NV Heerlen te certificeren. Uiteindelijk werd een en ander vastgelegd in de akte van Commanditaire Vennootschap (CV), waarbij Leonie Käller-Schunck, Maria Stahl-Schunck en Peter Joseph (Pierre) Schunck het recht werden verleend toe te treden als vennoot in de CV, indien zij voor 1 januari 1946 een kapitaal gestort hadden.

Pierre is blijkbaar geen vennoot geworden. Nog in 1966 verwachtte Leo tegenwerking van hem bij een mogelijke stichting van nieuwe zaak onder de naam Schunck, feitelijk een herhaling van het Käller-probleem uit 1942. De naam Schunck mocht in de mijnstreek niet gebezigd worden door andere familieleden, indien dezelfde artikelen verkocht werden.

• In 1945, attempts were made to gain a foothold in Maastricht; invnr 10
• In 1949, a buste by C. Voss of Peter was offered. I thought that happened during the opening of the Promenade store. Or was that someone else? (Leo?) I'm sure I read that somewhere in the newspaper clippings I scanned. Have to check that.
• In 1964, 400 people worked in Heerlen and Geleen. Oh?? elsewhere, I read that was 700 at the main store and 125 in Geleen. Quite a discrepancy. But further down, under Leo, it says that in 1961, in Heerlen there were between 480 and 500 and in Geleen between 100 and 125. So mistakes are clearly made in this piece. Luckily, almost everything has a reference to the source, which is publicly accessible, so I'll have to go look at that.
• Literally:

Pierre was de oudste zoon, doch niet de opvolger van zijn vader. Hij werd eigenaar van de stoomwasserij te Valkenburg. Dat bedrijf, de NV Hollandsche Stoomwasscherij, gelegen aan de Plenkert te Houthem, was opgericht in 1904 door Pierre Cloot te Heerlen. De energie werd opgewekt door een locomobiel. In 1909 was Pierre eigenaar, terwijl Leo Cloot als directeur fungeerde. Dat jaar werd het bedrijf uitgebreid en werd de locomobiel vervangen door een stoommachine en een elektromotor. De rol van een zekere J. Imink te Elden is niet duidelijk. Het lijkt erop, dat hij wel iets te maken had met de wasserij. In 1910 wordt N. G. Brey als zaakwaarnemer vermeld. Hij was in 1914 nog actief. Schijnbaar liepen de zaken goed. In 1913 werd personeel gevraagd, namelijk een kindermeisje en strijksters. Pierre bemoeide zich slechts met de familie-aangelegenheden omwille van de continuïteit en eenheid, maar liet zich niet de kaas van het brood eten. {...} Behalve de wasserij te Valkenburg, had Pierre in Maastricht het Heren- en kinderkledingmagazijn Schunck Jr. CV, gelegen aan de Muntstraat, dat blijkbaar nog in 1970 uitgebaat werd.

Who is Leo Cloot? An uncle, I presume. This clears up one thing. I wasn't sure of the name 'stoomwasserij', whether that referred to the cleaning method or the power supply. Since the latter was introduced only aftter the name was given (yes?), it must be the former. Which still doesn't clarify what the method is. Dry cleaning doesn't work with steam, so that's not what it is.

• Literally:

Pierre Schunck wist zich rond 1950 te herinneren, dat de stalencollectie van Arnold na zijn dood werd opgeborgen op de zolder, tezamen met het oude weefgetouw. Deze zolder werd ook wel de reliekenzolder genoemd. Deze was voor niemand toegankelijk, uitgezonderd weduwe Schunck. Bij de aanvang van Pierre’s studie aan de textielschool bezocht hij met zijn moeder de zolder en troffen de stalen en het weefgetouw onder een dikke laag stof aan. In 1926, na zijn studie, wilde Pierre het weefgetouw in werking stellen en de stalencollectie ordenen. De boeken bleken echter aan het oud papier gegeven te zijn en het weefgetouw was verzaagd tot toonbankladen. De schering, het riet en de schachten waren naar de voddenman gegaan. Er was blijkbaar extra magazijnruimte nodig geweest. Het was buiten Peter Schunck en diens moeder om gegaan…. Zij werden onkundig gehouden van die gebeurtenissen.

That doesn't make sense. In 1950 he remembered a loom that in 1926 he already knew had been thrown out?

• For details in Leo, see the source (the beginniing of the section under his name. He had studied at the textile school in Enschede. Apparently, therre had been plans to put lions in the shopping windows. Hold on, didn't I once hear that that was actually done?
• Literally:

In 1961 werkten te Heerlen tussen de 480 en 500 en te Geleen tussen de 120 en 125 personen. Door de straatkwestie was de oudste zaak van Heerlen in een ongunstige concurrentiepositie terechtgekomen. Nieuwe zaken hadden zich te Heerlen gevestigd. M.n. de Grand Bazar bleek een geduchte concurrent. V&D beschikte over een modern nieuwbouwpand. Voor Schunck bleek nieuwbouw terzijde het Glaspaleis niet mogelijk. Het verouderde interieur kon niet vernieuwd worden, het voldeed niet meer aan de eisen van een modern grootwinkelbedrijf. Er werden steeds meer onkosten gemaakt in verband met de decentralisatie als gevolg van het ruimtegebrek in het Glaspaleis. Om het ruimtegebrek te keren, werden de panden Saroleastraat 14; Markt 1; Kerkplein 11, 12, 14; Bongerd 14, 16; Emmaplein 17; Kerkplein 1; Emmastraat 13 gebruikt.

Again that street affair. Next, it says that the move to the Promenade solved that. But I understood that it was 'given to the city' in 1961.

• The Promenade building cost 30 million. But elsewhere I read that it cost 10 million.
• Another literal section, partly because I don't understand it well enough to interpret it:

In 1969 gaf Leo in een interview enige visie op het beleid en de toekomst. Grote en kleine gespecialiseerde bedrijven hadden de toekomst. Degene die niet specialiseerde, had geen toekomst. Schunck was een speciaalzaak, en de kracht lag in de persoonlijke bediening van de cliënten. Plannen tot samenwerking oftewel coöperatie waren er niet, doch werden niet afgewezen. De supermarkt liep goed en haalde landelijke bekendheid. Het devies luidde: kwaliteit wint altijd. Schunck kwam met weekaanbiedingen: een eiland van verlies in een zee van winst. Schunck is een warenhuis, maar legde de nadruk op de bedarfsbündelunggedachte: geen shop in shop, doch een zaak, waar men de juiste benodigdheden kon kiezen bij het gewenste artikel [zoals gebruikelijk] in een warenhuis volgens de van oudsher bestaande modeafdelingen. Centraal hierbij stond de persoonlijke bediening. Cash en carry hier te lande zou geen lang leven beschoren zijn. Zij zouden waarschijnlijk omgebogen worden tot het Amerikaans discount-house, wat Schunck 15 jaar daarvoor al realiseerde in de Markthal. De Promenade-nieuwbouw was de kinderziektes te boven gekomen. De nieuwe afdelingen supermarkt en horecasector floreerden. Schunck maakte gebruik van een electronisch informatie-, ofwel computersysteem.

Actually, the section about Leo had best be read in the original (pages 18 through 20), because I'm not going to copy all that. Still, I'll mention some things here (apart from some stuff I've already put in the article);

• Limburg had a shop overcapacity and in South limburg, 40% of the shop floor surface had to disappear. Im not sure what is meant here. Did all that disappear or was that someone's prediction, and whose then?
• What is the 'behangerij' and what did Käller have to do with that?
• "Leo behield een optie op de Markthal." What does 'option' mean here? Is that meant on the sense of stock exchange or in the more general sense of the word, that he could become director if he wished or something? Invnr 27, 489, 44
• Schunck also had gordijnnaaisters and behangers.
• "Van de lotgevallen van de BV na 1972 zijn geen archiefbescheiden overgeleverd." Of course, these will be kept somewhere. I'll have to ask around who has them.
• "Verleisdonk opende een nieuwe winkel, een speciaalzaak voor damesconfectie, gelegen aan de Raadhuisstraat 23-25 te Geleen. De oude winkel was uit de loop geraakt en werd verlaten, hetgeen ontslag betekende voor een aantal personeelsleden." Did the latter happen after the former? Again, this bit is not clear to me.
• In 'Heerlen van dorp tot stad' it is said that the company was run not only by Christine and Verleisdonk, but also by a son of her. Who was this and why did he not continue?

So far the first 1/3, the overview. The rest is about the state and content of the archive. Alas, it contains little of the comapny adminsitration. From before it's mostly about properties and such. Which I'd like to have a better look at, so I'll visit Rijckheyt. Most, however, is about the period after that, the 'Leo-period' (although that also contains little company administration). I suppose others in the family have more info from the earlier period, so I'll have to ask around about that.

A few more things from that last section:

• The Wanderpass was in 1964 said to be in the City museum, but in his memoirs, Leo claims he still had it then. Relocating it would be very desirable. I'll have to ask around.
• In 2002 the City received some material from C Schrijnen (who is he?) from the archives of Arnold Schunck (which one?) concerning the Stoomwasserij in Valkenberg.
• Part of the material is to be destroyed?? I hope I misunderstand that.
• For the protection of the pricvacy of those involved, material from after 1950 will only become publicly available in 2043. Dat zijn inv. nrs. 25, 27, 47, 139, 377, 378, 379, 380, 409, 413, 654, 657. Ik vraag me af of dat ook voor familieleden, zoals ikzelf, geldt. Informatie daaruit zal ik dan echter niet hier kunnen gebruiken, neem ik aan.
• Invnr 139 is slechts toegankelijk met toestemming van de archivaris. Dat is info aangaande de aanleg van een kluis. Als die nog in gebruik is is het niet vreemd dat dat niet toegankelijk is.
• p 25: literatuurlijst
• p 27: stamboom-info
• Tot slot een overzicht van alle stukken, die hierboven aangegeven staan als invnr.

Houses owned by Schunck (as mentioned above):

• Saroleastraat 14 (Markthal/Neerlandia?)
• Markt 1
• Kerkplein 11, 12, 14
• Bongerd 14, 16 (Limburgia?)
• Emmaplein 17
• Kerkplein 1
• Emmastraat 13

After the move to the Promenade, the follwing buildings were demoished:

• At the Emmaplein:
  • pand Savelberg
  • cafe Lindelauf
  • the buildings in which interior decoration was sold
• All buildings between Bongerd and Kerkplein, bought after 1945:
  • former Hamburger Buffet
  • pand Stienstra
  • pand Keulaets
  • Hotel Cloot

Alas, the addresses and names in the two lists are not linked. Then about the businesses of Schunck at the time of the opening of the Promenade store:

Met filialen in Geleen (Rijksweg Zuid, warenhuis), Heerlen (Marktstraat 1/Saroleastraat 14, Markthal, kleinhandel in textielgoederen), Kerkplein 5 (kleinhandel meubelen, woningtextielgoederen, tuin, riet, en kampeermeubelen, oosterse tapijten en het meubel- en woningstoffeerdersbedrijf) was Schunck een belangrijk ondernemer.

Once again, it is written a bit messy and it isn't clear to me which is which. I believe that three businesses are mentioned here. DirkvdM 12:24, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&as_qdr=all&q=schunck+pdf+site%3Awww.rijckheyt.nl+&btnG=Search

Schunck Archief

So things I read in a reative's writings, the 'Schunck Archief'.

• Anna went along to the market in Sittard. This St Joseph Market in Sittard was called 'St Joep Markt'. Is that dialect or a typo?
• The imigration options considered were Russia/Silesia and the US. But Ludwig and Anna didn't feel like it.
• It's Anna who made the deal with Mgr Savelsberg.
• Around 1880 the weaving was stopped because the cloth couldn't be sold. But business went well, so does that mean their own cloth? Did people's taste change or was the mechanically weaved cloth simply better or cheaper (I assume the latter)?
• The Glaspaleis was built by August Knols. But in the Glaspaleis article it ways 'P. Knols'. Maybe his father's initial, from whom he took over the business?
• In 1954, a second shop was opened in Geleen, specialising in ladies' wear. Is that the shop started by Verleisdonk? Notice this is the same year the first business in Geleen was opened. I want to make sure things haven't been mixed up here before I add it. Btw, Verleisdonk was the husband of the daughter Emy of Chris's sister Lou Janssen - is that a cousin or a nephew? Anyway, Emy was born in 1942, so it is not very likely that her husband started a business in 1954 (although it is possible).
• The Glaspaleis was rented out to the ABP in 1964? That's the year the Promenade store was opened and I thought that the Glaspaleis was used by Schunck for a few more years after that.
• In 1989, Berden rented 600 m². But I put in the article that that was 6000 m². Both are possible. But 600 m² is 30 by 20 m, which would be rather small for a furniture section. 6000 m² would be two floors, which is a substantial part of the building and more in keeping with the line that it was meant to ensure the continuity of the business.

DirkvdM 14:17, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Nikolaus Severin's children

Nikolaus Severin's children (old table)

Nicola

Anna Maria

Wilhelm

Johann Arnold

Severin

Severin-Joseph

Ludwig

father: Nikolaus Severin Joseph Schunck (or 'Nicola Severin') (1799/07/06 - 1865/11/13)

mother: Maria Katharina Kroppenberg (1802/12/23 - 1858/11/14)

Anna Maria (1829/01/27 - 1913/08/30)

Maria Gertrudis (1832/07/20)

Nikolaus Joseph (1834/12/19 - 1906/01/06)

Severin Joseph (1836/11/16 - 1905/03/02)

Wilhelm Joseph (1839/12/15 - 1877/11/10)

Johann Arnold (1842/02/11 - 1905/10/15)

Nikolaus Ludwig (1844/01/16 - 1896/03/05)

Maria Louise (1846/02/22 - 1883/02/25)

I changed the list of Nikolaus Severin's children because new information I found is completely different. I have made a new table, excluding two children who died very young. Alas, many have double names and I don't know which is their 'normal' name ('roepnaam'). On top of that, different sources give (slightly) different names. But I have made rather educated guesses. :)

This new info says that Nikolaus Joseph and Wilhelm Joseph are the ones who went to Russia (apart from Arnold, temporarily) and that Severin Joseph is the one who stayed longest at his fathers weaving mill. This fits if 'Nikolaus Joseph' is 'Nicola' and 'Wilhelm Joseph' is 'Wilhelm'. And the name 'Severin Joseph' also fits, but he is certainly not the youngest son, according to this new info. And Wilhelm is not the second oldest son. So I'll delete those bits, but I'd like to find a reliable source.

Also, this new info suggests there were 5 brothers, in stead of 6, and now I don't remember if I read about the 6 or did my own counting. And I had to change "only the one but youngest, Joseph, would remain in the weaving mill." Who was Joseph then? Severin Joseph? That fits with the info that was already there, further down. And it fits with the statement in the 'Schunck Archief' that Severin Joseph stayed in his father's weaving mill the longest. So I assumed all that to be the case in my new edit. All very messy, but it seems to have come out right. DirkvdM 15:33, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Wilhelm Joseph died in Zierse

Shop Willemstraat

Does the shop on the Willemstraat still exist? Heerlen got a railway line in 1896, and it runs very close to where the shop was. Are there any buildings left there at all? DirkvdM 09:44, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

van Hommerich in 'de Maasgouw'

I copied some info from a 1951 article in de Maasgouw by LEMA van Hommerich, 'aspecten van het Heerlens zakenleven 1870-1900 - de textielhandel Schunck'. however, this contains some errors, most notably mixing up Arnold and Nicolas. It says Nicolas was the oldest brother of the founder of the business in Heerlen, but then starts claiming it was Nicolas who started that business. So I don't know how reliable that info is. The part where it changes from the former to the latter says Nicolas returned after a few years from Russia, started a waevery in Eupen and a wool spinning mill in Hauset, but competition from Aachen was too strong, with mechanical spinning and cloth that was both better and cheaper. Did Nicolas return? Or is this about Arnold, who indeed set up a business in Hauset? But he returned after just one year and I don't know of him setting up a business in Eupen. The it goes on to really confuse Arnold with Nicolas and claims he wanted to set up a business in Sittard, but changed his mind when he passed by Heerlen. That's the Anold story, but told not entirely right.

Another thing is that the article says that when Arnold went to Heerlen, two clothes shops had just been closed due to lack of business. So was that not a negative indication to start any textile business there? Arnold wanted to start a weaving mill (instead of starting a clothes shop) and expected the rise of the mining industry, but they quickly switched to selling cloth and the mining industry only took off 25 years later, so how come the business did so well? Was it the business instinct of Anna? Did other textile shops close in Heerlen at the end of the 19th century due to Schunck's competition?

Also, it says the first shop at the Church Square, the former drug store of Knittel, was where 'now' (1951) the entrance to Schunck's living quarters are located. I assume that refers to the old shop (not the Glaspaleis), and that entrance is the southern section of the two joined houses. I thought the first shop was in the north section. And then it says that in 1900 a new shop was built near the church tower. But the shop was already at the church tower. DirkvdM 11:53, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Planned extension towards the Emmaplein?

The december 1961 issue of the Dutch train magazine 'tussen de rails' says that, according to the wishes of Peter, Schunck gave the ground between the Glaspaleis and V&D to the City, to build a street there. I still need to verify if this was indeed given by Schunck - that whole affair still a bit unclear to me. It also says that, after tearing down several buildings at the Emmaplein, Schunck would expand even further. Was that the intention, to extend the business in that direction? Other houses, between Bongerd and Church square were also owned by Schunck, and I thought the extension was planned in that direction. Not all too important, because it didn't go through, but I'd still like to know. DirkvdM 12:09, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Owned by Schunck

This is an attempt to give an overview of everything owned by the Schunck family, so not necessarily the NV A Schunck and not necessarily a shop:

Heerlen

• first shop, at the Willemstraat
• Old shop, Glaspaleis and the rest of the block
• the block next to that, between Church square and Bongerd (the whole block?) (including Hotel Cloot and 'South Markthal')
• next to that a house at the Kerkstraat
• north side Bongerd and Saroleastraat: 'North Markthal' (2 former hotels)
• Garage plus orchard between Akerstraat and Nobelstraat
• 2 premises at the Kruisstraat (Geerstraat?)
• small premise at the Klompstraat
• The last main store at the Promenade

Geleen

• store

Sittard

• also a store there, or were those just plans? (Rijckheyt 0216)

Limestone-quarry

• Near Berg en Terblijt? Groeve Kunrade (Rijckheyt 289)?

Holland

• Wassen

Valkenburg

• laundry of Pierre Schunck

Bonaire

• Schunck's Kleding Industrie Bonaire of Pierre Schunck

Maasticht

• a gent's wear shop of Pierre Schunck

And then there was Käller-Schunck, both in Heerlen and Geleen, I believe (now Hiero)

On top of that, Schunck was partial owner of a glass insurance company (or something) and some more, I believe.

Copied from 'Additional info from Rijkheyt (City Archives)' above:

• Saroleastraat 14 (Markthal/Neerlandia?)
• Markt 1
• Kerkplein 11, 12, 14
• Bongerd 14, 16 (Limburgia?)
• Emmaplein 17
• Kerkplein 1
• Emmastraat 13

After the move to the Promenade, the follwing buildings were demoished:

• At the Emmaplein:
  • pand Savelberg
  • cafe Lindelauf
  • the buildings in which interior decoration was sold
• All buildings between Bongerd and Kerkplein, bought after 1945:
  • former Hamburger Buffet
  • pand Stienstra
  • pand Keulaets
  • Hotel Cloot

Alas, the addresses and names in the two lists are not linked. Then about the businesses of Schunck at the time of the opening of the Promenade store:

Met filialen in Geleen (Rijksweg Zuid, warenhuis), Heerlen (Marktstraat 1/Saroleastraat 14, Markthal, kleinhandel in textielgoederen), Kerkplein 5 (kleinhandel meubelen, woningtextielgoederen, tuin, riet, en kampeermeubelen, oosterse tapijten en het meubel- en woningstoffeerdersbedrijf) was Schunck een belangrijk ondernemer.

Once again, it is written a bit messy and it isn't clear to me which is which. I believe that three businesses are mentioned here.

DirkvdM 13:55, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Glaspaleis by night.jpg

Image:Glaspaleis by night.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 14:33, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Glaspaleis glass-after.jpg

Image:Glaspaleis glass-after.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 14:34, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Glaspaleis glass-before.jpg

Image:Glaspaleis glass-before.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 14:34, 2 January 2008 (UTC)