Talk:School segregation in the United States

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 26 January 2022 and 17 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Merrill248, Ctmanigo (article contribs).

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Assignment

Hey all—I know at least one of y'all are working on this page for an assignment. I just wanted to offer my assistance if you have any questions about Wikipedia or structuring your future edits to mesh with the rest of the encyclopedia. (E.g., I'd be happy to take a look at an outline for where you want to go with the article.) Take care  czar ♔ 13:38, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Hello! I am working on this page for an assignment in a Poverty, Justice, and Human Capabilities course at Rice University. I'll be adding more to the article over the next week, and I would greatly appreciate any feedback you have to give. Specifically, I will be adding an "Effects" section to the article, with subtopics in "Educational outcomes" and "social wellbeing." I will also add a "Policy proposals and controversies" section. I'm eventually going to flesh out the history section a little more, too, but for the moment my main focus is on issues of contemporary segregation. Thanks! Sallyhc42 (talk) 20:10, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

@Sallyhc42: I'd consider how you want to handle history of the discourse versus history of the phenomenon, for the present info. I'm not sure "Effects" would be the most encyclopedic term, but we can address that later (maybe something like "findings" unless causality is established). I wouldn't worry about subtopics until the section gets long enough where it needs to be split. For your recent edits, be sure to mark any content edits as non-minor edit and I thought the dates of the studies (recently removed) helped put the findings in perspective. Let me know if I can help with anything czar ♔ 20:49, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Scope and duration

Note that in parts of Texas, schools were segregated three ways: 'white', 'colored' (African-American), and 'Mexican' (Mexican-American). This 'three-way segregation' may have existed in other southwestern US states, as well. De facto school segregation in some places in Texas lasted well past Brown vs. Board of Education, into even the 1970s... A 'fourth dimension' of school segregation in the US involved the separate and forced education of Native American children in 'Indian schools'. Regards, DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 09:27, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

P.S. Texas, Oklahoma, and Arkansas usually are referred to as part of the US southwest. Missouri, as part of the midwest. Right? Thanks, DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 09:36, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

This is NOT a true claim. It's a widespread myth that is circulating today. In Texas history Mexicans were white, and they always went to segregated white schools. Some districts had remedial classes for Mexican elementary students, but that was special needs education that was based on language. "Mexican Schools" were part of the white school system. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.222.204.117 (talk) 19:31, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

Peer Review

This article is in very good shape right now. The sourcing, formatting, and readability is all almost perfect, so the focus at this point should be on adding more content. Adding specific causal theories to the Sources of contemporary segregation section would balance the studies that you already have in a more theoretical way, which is what this article needs at the moment. The other major area that could use expanding is the Implications of segregation section, which is currently limited to just education and social well being. Many more topic areas (economic, health, employment, etc.) could be explored here, and it would add greatly to the quality of the article. While further work could be done with adding images and footnotes, the article is looking good enough to where the main edits should simply be adding more content. DerekHolliday (talk) 03:06, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Peer Review 2

This article has a very well organized structure and each paragraph has a clear leading sentence. The content is well written and easy to follow. The statistics are the latest and reliable references are used. Expansion of some subtopics might be helpful to further address this topic (the examples noted by Derek can be considered). More in-text links and more pictures can be added to this article. In addition, there are many direct quotes in the entry and it would better to summarize some of them (see Wikipedia:Quotations) and there are two sentences not sourced. Overall, this article is really well edited.(Feihuamengxue (talk) 05:04, 7 November 2013 (UTC)）

Proposed revisions

I am considering revising this page, particularly the sections on proposed policies and the history of segregation. Rjpg12 (talk) 20:53, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

I'm interested in adding a bit of information on the varied experiences of school segregation for different ethnic groups in the United States, such as Mexican Americans, suggestions as to what subheading might best benefit from this information are welcomed. Jordantoni UCSD (talk) 17:25, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

1)One aspect of school segregation in the United States that lacks discussion here is the effort made by public and private actors to challenge segregation, at least at the communal level. There isn't bias directed towards presentation of governmental action but the page lacks information on the actions of interest groups to reduce, or at least challenge the practice of segregation. Information on campaigns by the NAACP, for instance, could shed light on the community perspectives and initiatives that led to enrollment of black students in parts of the country prior to federal involvement.

2)Evidence that compares and contrasts the effect segregation had on different minority student populations might also greatly benefit the article as it currently discusses the implication in a largely black-white binary framework which centers on the impacts of black students. Though not without profound impacts on the current social and educational structures that exist for black students in the United States, including other non-black minority students in the discussion could present different perspectives for citing literature that presented solutions for segregation in the past.

3)The different evidence used and the claims presented here thus far are nonetheless neutral and consider the political attitudes during the time that determined the outcome of segregation. It is worth noting that the inclusion of contemporary educational segregation is very important to this article because it contextualizes segregation as a result of numerous socio-economic and historical conditions such as those outlined and cited here. Delving more into primary accounts and including discussion on the intersections of identity, such as wealth and citizenship, would provide a more accurate picture of the driving force behind school segregation.-Jordantoni UCSD (talk) 03:31, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

This Article Should Be Deleted or Substantially Rewritten

The article contends that de jure school segregation first occurred in the South after Reconstruction. That is demonstrably false, and no article should be permitted to misstate history and thereby libel an entire region of the country. An early example of de jure segregation is found in Massachusetts, in which the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts held that the City of Boston was within its rights to require black students to attend separate schools. See Roberts v. City of Boston. Assuming that there needs to be an article on this subject, it needs to be based on the facts and a proper premise.John Paul Parks (talk) 15:50, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

Point of View Tag; Factual Accuracy Disputed Tag

The article states that de jure school segregation began in the South following the end of Reconstruction. That is absolute nonsense. An early example of legally-required school segregation was found in the City of Boston. In 1850, the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts held that there was no problem requiring school students in Boston to be segregated by race. See Roberts v. City of Boston.

This entire article needs to be deleted or substantially rewritten.John Paul Parks (talk) 15:44, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

I removed the request that the article be deleted. Factual inaccuracies are not a valid reason for deleting an article. The sentence to which you object, which has a source, doesn't say that the first example of school segregation was in the post-Reconstruction South. It says that formal segregation by race began there. Boston may have had a segregated school in 1850, but as far as I know, most of the city was not segregated. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 15:27, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

I'll go and remove the tags now if there's nothing more to debate here. Lizard (talk) 00:09, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

The Myth of Mexican Segregation

This article is forwarding a widely circulating myth that claims that Mexican-Americans were subject to Jim Crow laws and legal segregation in the south. This is totally untrue, and a startling number of people (even people that call themselves historians) are claiming this. I'm proposing a massive rewrite of this article that points out the following facts:

- Jim Crow laws exclusively applied to people of African descent - never Mexicans or people of Spanish origin. Segregation statutes explicity state this over and over again.

- In Texas History, Mexicans were considered white. They were not a minority group. Laws explicity state this.

- Mexican Americans ALWAYS went to schools with white children. Every public segregated white school and university in Texas always had Mexican (or other Latin American) students. They normally were permitted to go anywhere and do anything that was for whites only.

- "Mexican School" was special needs education that was based on language - they were ESL classes. It was not race segregation, and it was unrelated to legal segregation and Jim Crow laws. They were considered to be part of the white school system. That's made abundantly clear in all cases that challenged Mexican Schools. They were also limited to just a small number of rural districts and only for elementary school children (K - 4). Even children who were forced into remedial Mexican school eventually went on to mainstream junior and high schools without problems. Most Mexicans never went to separate schools. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wrventura (talk • contribs) 19:18, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

Nice WP:FRINGE theory. Quick search shows how wrong you are: [1] and it would be easy to find plenty more. Next. Toddst1 (talk) 18:18, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Potential Ideas for Revision

1. I would like to contribute to the existing subtopic of more recent segregation by providing more examples. For example, I would like to introduce the elements of legal segregation that can be dismissed as a lack of diversity in modern school districts. I believe the viewpoint about how racial segregation presents itself within the private school sector should be moved from the School choice to More recent segregation. I also think this subtopic is a little outdated. This subtopic also provides contradicting statements about whether school segregation is on a decline or incline.
2. I want to revise the organization of the contents in the article. The introduction incorporates a lot of factual information that should be under history instead of giving a brief overview. Religious schools is not only underdeveloped but also could be linked under history until more information was added.
3. I would also like to add a topic that explains how school segregation affected society outside of academia in race relations. Specifically, I want to add information on how attending a diverse school can be segregated within it and lack inclusivity. Another possible addition would be a link to Ruby Bridges because of her role and story in combatting segregation to further develop the historical context. Tamaz.young (talk) 00:30, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
4. Within the article as a whole, I want to develop more depth by introducing other facts, theories, and correlations between current and new information that will be added. I would also make minor grammatical edits. On my sandbox User:Tamaz.young/School segregation in the United States, one can see which references I plan on using to improve this article and a more detailed look of my plans.Tamaz.young (talk) 09:19, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

I have begun to make revisions on the lead of the article. I have also published edits and added information to the first two subtopics. If anyone has any feedback, I am interested to hear it. Tamaz.young (talk) 08:07, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

I really liked the way that you reorganized the article by historical time period, causes, and outcomes of school segregation. I think that the information you added in the new sections contributed positively to the overall information in the article by drawing from scholarly studies. Some of the new sections could be rephrased for improved clarity. Great work! EJPit (talk) 21:45, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

I am impressed by the level of detail and research behind this article; it feels very comprehensive and logically organized in the way that it presents information surrounding this issue. Overall, I believe that the author could benefit from clarifying certain terms/avoiding redundant evidence to make the article more concise and accessible to outside readers. Also, separating information into the respective sections rather than letting information bleed from, say, the lead paragraph to the “historical segregation” section could make the article flow more clearly.IJXB27 (talk) 23:10, 3 November 2021 (UTC) IJXB27

Weird counter factual portrayal

I tried to improve some of the shocking misinformation in this entry but I see much ofnthe work I did was undone. What does "It began in its de jure form in the American South with the passage of Jim Crow laws in the late 19th century" mean? The South wasn't segregated before Jim Crow? Before Jim Crow African Americans and whites attended school together in the South? This is incredible (at least outside Louisiana, I'm not sure how things worked there)!!! Such good news. The rest of the entry and the opening paragraphs have similar problems. A lot of fixing is needed. FloridaArmy (talk) 22:56, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

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