Talk:Schola Medica Salernitana

Lombard connections

The Lombard connections that were suggested in this article are not important. There was no Lombard medical tradition, no Lombard tradition of preserving manuscripts in general, few Lombard cultural connections with Byzantium and Arabic Sicily. I added two first references, which provide some basic orientation. --Wetman 20:47, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

The connection was solely with the stability provided by the Lombard government, but even that implication was barely detectable. The comment merely defined the time period by the political authority. Furthermore, Alfanus was a Lombard and his influence was important. Srnec 05:20, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Some general comments

Why isn't this article titled "Salerno Medical School"? Is Schola Medica Salernitana Latin? It would be good if the article gave some general idea of when the school was important; I am under the impression that the Salerno Medical School was the most important medical school for about 400 years, but I'm not sure when. I know that today there is a botanical garden in Salerno that is a remnant of the medieval medical school, but what other evidence of it remains today? I may dig up some photos of that garden to post on the site... 18:07, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Entering Salerno Medical School or Medical School of Salerno bring the Wikipedia reader to this article. --Wetman 23:24, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Comment from wfm495

I disagree. I think we should use the institute's proper name, as that is how it is known to scholars. I have needed to refer to this article from mine on Dr John Ordronaux (in prep.) but felt that I had to refer to the article in Wikipedia, Italy, as being more accurate and complete. Why dumb down? Wfm495 (talk) 23:00, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

First university?

An IP-hopper is repeatedly adding a claim that Schola Medica Salernitana was the first university in the world, a claim that isn't supported by mainstream scholars (see University) it was started as a medical school, and not a full university, and that isn't even supported by the references provided by the IP (which only say "... some scholars say ..."). So I wanted to start a discussion about it. Thomas.W ^talk 12:15, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

The sources are reliable is clearly describe clearly "The subversion of Australian universities, edited by John Biggs and Richard Davis, 2002; and Encyclopædia Britannica. [1] ; [2] ; [3] ; [4].

"University of Salerno, Italian Università Degli Studi Di Salerno, institution of higher learning in Salerno, Italy. Much of the historic interest of the university derives from an antecedent medical school in Salerno that was the earliest and one of the greatest medical schools of the Middle Ages. In fact, some scholars have called this school medieval Europe’s first university. The medical school was noted for its physicians as early as the 10th century, and by the 11th century it was attracting students from all over Europe, as well as Asia and Africa. In 1221 the Holy Roman emperor Frederick II decreed that no doctor in the kingdom could legally practice medicine until he had been examined and publicly approved by the school at Salerno." The present University of Salerno is a distinct institution founded in 1970. Its faculties include letters and philosophy, teacher training, mathematics and science, law, and economics." *Encyclopedia Brittanica.

"Early universities The modern Western university evolved from the medieval schools known as studia generalia; they were generally recognized places of study open to students from all parts of Europe. The earliest studia arose out of efforts to educate clerks and monks beyond the level of the cathedral and monastic schools. The inclusion of scholars from foreign countries constituted the primary difference between the studia and the schools from which they grew.

The earliest Western institution that can be called a university was a famous medical school that arose at Salerno, Italy, in the 9th century and drew students from all over Europe. It remained merely a medical school, however. The first true university in the West was founded at Bologna late in the 11th century. It became a widely respected school of canon and civil law. The first university to arise in northern Europe was the University of Paris, founded between 1150 and 1170. It became noted for its teaching of theology, and it served as a model for other universities in northern Europe such as the University of Oxford in England, which was well established by the end of the 12th century. The Universities of Paris and Oxford were composed of colleges, which were actually endowed residence halls for scholars."

• Encyclopedia Brittanica --151.46.49.167 (talk) 13:36, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

That is one opinion, but not the mainstream opinion (which states that Bologna was the first university). And "... some scholars say ..." does not support your edit, which says that it is the first university, without the limiting "some scholars". A minority view should never be presented as if it is an undisputed fact (see WP:NPOV). Thomas.W ^talk 13:43, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

"A university in its basic form is a degree-awarding educational institution with some official recognition. The English word university comes from the original Latin words unus, one, and vertere, to turn, or the totality of all things that exist, which then became in medieval Latin universites facultatum, or combination of all the faculties or branches of learning. The first university in the modern sense is believed by some to have been the medical school founded in the 9th century at Salerno, but the first with a precise founding date appears to have been the Alazhar University of Cairo in 970 A.D.[4], followed by those in Bologna, Paris, Oxford and Cambridge in the early 1000s. These early universities were allowed freedom to govern themselves providing they did not teach atheism or heresy and the European ones were granted the right to elect their own rectors and raise their own finances. Starting as religious educational bodies, what made them universities as distinct from seminaries was the admission of students from outside their own orders. The foundation dates of some other early universities were: Jagiellonian (Krakow) 1369, Barcelona 1450, Basel 1460, Uppsala 1477, Santo Domingo 1538, Pontifical Gregorian 1553, Harvard 1636, Toronto (as Kings College) 1754, Moscow 1755, Sydney 1850, Melbourne 1853, Tokyo 1877, Tasmania 1896 and Peking 1898."

The subversion of Australian universities, edited by John Biggs and Richard Davis, 2002; and...before the evidence, Britannica is very reliable--151.46.49.167 (talk) 13:50, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

But it's still not the mainstream opinion. Read WP:NPOV. No material should be added without sources, but having sources isn't enough to get material added if the opinion expressed in those sources is fringe, and clearly deviates from the mainstream opinion. Thomas.W ^talk 13:57, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia is neutral...the mainstream claims that there are scholars who describe Salerno as first university . We can not erase history . and it is important to bring the reliable sources.--151.46.166.134 (talk) 14:00, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

The mainstream opinion among scholars is that the University of Bologna was the first university, and the definition of university is even based on the organisation of Bologna. Schola Medica Salernitana was founded as a medical school, not a university (by the mainstream definition of it), and finding a source or two that have a different opinion doesn't change that. Thomas.W ^talk 14:05, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Further comment: Salerno wouldn't be the first university in the world, BTW, even if we were to widen the definition of "university", since there are a number of other schools (such as Nalanda and Taxila in India, which also have sources supporting their claims) that would then fit the new wider definition of the word, schools that were founded long before Salerno. So Salerno was not the first university, regardless of which definition of "university" we use. Thomas.W ^talk 14:13, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia is made of reliable sources . The sources speak of Saleno as first university and is shown on an encyclopedia..and not the few . wikipedia is neutral.The opinion of the sources cited is clear and it is also reported. "The Schola Medica Salernitana is the first university in Europe and Western World" we talk about Europe and the Western world. The arguments are clearly terminated --151.18.79.242 (talk) 14:24, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

I don't know if you don't want to understand what I'm saying, or if your English is so bad that you can't understand what I'm saying. I have pointed you to relevant policies and guidelines, and have given you a thorough explanation of why Salerno isn't the first university in the world. Both here and on List of oldest universities in continuous operation, an article that had to be protected because of you. Salerno is not the first/oldest university in the world, not by any definition, so stop. Thomas.W ^talk 14:36, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

"continuous operation" is another story . But the sources are clear about Salerno also in the Britannica . I understand , but this is your own personal interpretation .wikipedia is neutral and needs reliable sources. "The Schola Medica Salernitana is the first university in Europe and Western World". The arguments are clearly terminated --151.18.79.242 (talk) 14:46, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

• Out of curiosity I checked what the Italian Wikipedia say, and their take on it is "è considerata da molti come l'antesignana delle moderne università", or in English "it is considered by many to be the forerunner/predecessor of modern universities", i.e. not even the Italian Wikipedia claim that Schola Medica Salernitana was a university, only a predecessor to it, one stop on the way to what later became universities as we know them today. While the claim repeatedly made by the IP-hopper is "The Schola Medica Salernitana (Principality of Salerno) is the first university in Europe and Western World". Thomas.W ^talk 18:34, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

This is wikipedia in English not in Italian . The source is not Italian wikipedia but english sources as Encyclopaedia Britannica and "The subversion of Australian universities, edited by John Biggs and Richard Davis, 2002 (Chapter 2 , pages 19-40 The concept of a university), the links are mentioned above. These sources are very reliable and can be checked online(for all)--79.18.109.65 (talk) 12:22, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Read the explanations I've given you above. Schola Medica Salernitana was not founded as a university since it doesn't fit the mainstream definition of university (see University#Definition) that we use here, on the English language Wikipedia (a definition that is obviously also used in Italy), and the fringe sources you have found don't change that. So you might as well stop trying. Thomas.W ^talk 13:24, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a source of wikipedia; Encyclopaedia Britannica and "The subversion of Australian universities, edited by John Biggs and Richard Davis, 2002 are true sources and define clearly the content--79.35.108.101 (talk) 01:01, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Their definition of "university" differs from the mainstream definition that we use. - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 14:22, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Late medieval?

Why late? That strikes me as limiting to 14th/15th cs. (also suggest making M lower-case) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.174.70.78 (talk) 05:44, 7 June 2018 (UTC)