Talk:Savoy Ballroom

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Stompin' at the Savoy credits

Here it says "Its credits say its music was written by Benny Goodman, Chick Webb, and Edgar Sampson, and the lyrics by Andy Razaf, in reality it was Sampson who actually wrote the number - see here)"

I expected the linked page to explain about the confusion regarding credits, but actually that page repeats the credits that are wrong according to this article. So I think a reference is needed for the Sampson claim. --Perstar 19:38, 30 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Added "verification needed" tag. --Myc2001 13:57, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Does any of this really meet Wikipedia's verification requirements? ~ Shawn 16:48, 17 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This has been taken care of. --User:4415ho 30 January 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wis2fan (talk • contribs) 16:26, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What happened to the Savoy?

What happened to the Savoy? Why did it demise? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.146.24.48 (talk) 05:04, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Gangster?!

I have removed the claim that Moe Gale was a gangster and reputed as a front for Al Capone. That was flagged as "reference needed". Tracking back through the history of edits on the page, at some point the page said that a "Moe Paddon", who was a Jewish gangster, owned the Savoy. As far as I can tell, Moe Paddon is entirely a non-existent person, perhaps a confusion of "Moe Gale" and "Jay Faggen". The only source I can find for a "Moe Paddon" seems to be a 2002 ice-cream sundae recipe book. I think what happened in the editing history is that someone had inserted the information on Moe Paddon the gangster, perhaps on the basis of the recipe book. Then someone realized that there was no Moe Paddon, but rather Moe Gale and Jay Faggen, and changed it, but kept the juicy gangster bit, attaching it to Moe Gale. Anyway, such a serious accusation against Moe Gale--even with the weasel words--needs to have a reputable reference in order to be included. For what it's worth--I know it is original research so I can't include it in the article--I talked with Moe Gale's son this week (full disclosure: he is a friend and a former professor of mine), and he categorically and credibly denied any gangster or mob connection claims. Pruss (talk) 14:58, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I found records of a Moe Gale owning/running the Savoy, and a Harlem encyclopedia stating that Moe Padden and Jay Fagan invested money to build the Savoy (link). Therefore I am lead to believe that the book on ice creams (which is much more informative than any cookbook I've ever read) isn't making anything up, and that even though a Moe Gale may have owned or run the Savoy, Padden and Fagan together constructed it and owned it from the beginning. This odd historical record also names Moe Padden as owner/manager - link. Following it leads you here, a good and informative site: link.

So you should find out where to include Moe Gale in the article, because it looks to me that Fagan and Padden were the first owners, one of which may have been Jewish or a front for Al Capone.--ɱ (talk) 15:58, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

1. I know it's original research so no good for the body of the article, but Moe Gale's son, Richard Gale (a distinguished now retired philosopher, by the way), did tell me this week that there was no such person as Padden involved--he never heard of this person. According to him, it was Moe Gale and the Irishman Jay Faggan who started the Savoy, with Faggan being a "silent partner".

2. The website associated with the commemorative plaque at the Savoy has nothing about a Moe Paddon, only Moe Gale as the owner. link

3. Searching the Google News Archive finds no newspaper stories about any Moe Padden/Paddon and the Savoy. Just contemporary entries like the Harlem Encyclopedia.

4. On the other hand, the Google News Archive finds entries going back to 1939 about Moe Gale and the Savoy. Specifically, it links to a paywalled New York Times notice of Moe Gale's death which describes him as "a Founder of the Savoy". The Baltimore Afro-American for Sept. 1, 1964 in a report on Moe Gale's funeral explicitly says he "opened the Savoy Ballroom in partnership with Jay Faggen". The Afro-American for Sept. 20, 1941 describes Moe Gale as "builder and operator" of the Savoy. I'll insert one or more of these references.

5. The link to the "odd historical record" also misspells the location of the Savoy as "Lennex" instead of the correct "Lenox". That decreases the reliability of that source. I still think that there never was a Padden--that's why no newspaper story ever mentions him--but "Moe Padden" is some sort of a confusion of "Moe Gale" and a mis-scan or misspelling of "Jay Faggan".

6. It wouldn't surprise me if the StreetSwing you cite from April 2013 was in fact based on the faulty Wikipedia data. In any case, it seems to me that going back to archival newspaper reports is going to be more reliable.

7. Based on reviews of "The Savoy King" documentary film (I haven't seen the film myself), the founder was Moe Gale in 1926. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pruss (talk • contribs) 01:28, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that's interesting. I didn't consider searching for older records, those seem to do the ticket in convincing me.--ɱ (talk) 02:03, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Langston Hughes - why?!

I've just read the Langston Hughes poem 'Juke Box Love Song'. I can't find anything in there which can be called a reference to the Savoy Ballroom, only a vague description of Harlem nightlife. Obviously the same source backs up mentioning Hughes in the article on Lenox Avenue; but I think he should be removed from this one. Harfarhs (talk) 20:50, 9 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]