Talk:Sardigna Natzione Indipendentzia

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Open URN Sardinnya

[1]Open URN Sardinnya: Private agency of critical and political communications of Sardinian political parties. www.urn-indipendentzia.com

Requested move 16 January 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Sardigna Natzione Indipendentzia.

Since the headcount here is 3 opposes and 2 supports (3 including the nominator), I should explain why I found consensus to move. Rreagan007's oppose was based on the absence (at the time) of any evidence for the proposed title being commonly used in English-language sources, however this was later addressed by Yaksar and Scia Della Cometa. The other two opposing comments were not grounded in naming policy.

There was clear consensus that either Sardigna Natzione Indipendentzia or Sardigna Natzione would be a more appropriate title. Neither was clearly preferred. No prejudice against another discussion about moving to Sardigna Natzione (nor even against a bold move to same). (non-admin closure) Colin M (talk) 18:15, 18 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sardinia Nation → Sardigna Natzione Indipendentzia – Translation not used in English language sources. Given the particular Sardinian connotation of the name (which is "Sardigna Natzione Indipendentzia", not just "Sardigna Natzione"), this should be reported in the original language. Scia Della Cometa (talk) 10:03, 16 January 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Amakuru (talk) 15:34, 24 January 2022 (UTC)— Relisting. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 16:26, 11 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose The party was long know as Sardigna Natzione and that is still its most common name. "Sardinia Nation" is an obvious translation. --Checco (talk) 13:28, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

But our policy isn't to find the most common name and then instead use the English translation of it, no matter how obvious that translation is. Our policy is to use the common name. Otherwise we'd have pages for the Triumphal Arch and the city of Saint Francis, California.--Yaksar (let's chat) 14:53, 3 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support, or Sardigna Natzione. Our policy is not to always use either English translations or original names, but rather to use the version common in reliable English language sources. While we're not dealing with massive numbers, English language sources in news and books seem to prefer Sardigna Natzione Indipendentzia (and the current name appears to be completely unused). The opposing !votes seem to be based on whether the translation is accurate or uncontroversial, but that's not what matters under our naming guidelines, it's what name is commonly used.--Yaksar (let's chat) 23:23, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The nominator has not provided any reliable English-language sources to demonstrate what English-language sources refer to this topic as. Rreagan007 (talk) 00:44, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's certainly accurate of the nomination itself, but of the limited English sources I am finding, they seem not to be using the English translation -- the Wall Street Journal, various books that come up.--Yaksar (let's chat) 03:11, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Rreagan007: it is true, only a couple of English sources refer to the party as "Sardinia Nation". All other sources refer to it as "Sardigna Natzione", ([2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8] etc.) which would still be better than the current title. Maybe I should have indicated them in the request, but the current title is almost completely unused in the English language sources, compared to the original name..--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 09:32, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose there is some precedent for the use of the English language translation (e.g. [9], [10], [11]), and I don't see "Sardinia Nation" as problematic as long as there is an disambiguating link to the concept of Sardinia as a (historical) nation, which I've recently add. (For the sake of completeness, the sole English translation I've so far found for the full native name of "Sardigna Natzione Indipendentzia" is "For the Independence of the Sardinian Nation"[12], which isn't particularly elegant.)--Autospark (talk) 22:04, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That is contrary to our naming policy, which is not to default to English but rather use the form most commonly used in reliable English language sources. "Some precedent" of exceedingly rare usage of an English translation is not that.--Yaksar (let's chat) 15:57, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support. No evidence it is commonly seen in translation. Per WP:UE, we don't slavishly translate for the sake of it. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:56, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Relisting comment: for the opposes to hold weight here there needs to be clear evidence presented that Sardinia Nation is the most WP:COMMONNAME in english language sources; that hasn't been done yet, therefore, I'm relisting to allow time for such sourced evidence to be presented. There is also not a clear consensus on whether, if this RM succeeds, to move the page to Sardigna Natzione Indipendentzia or Sardigna Natzione. Once again, evidence showing one of those is the most common, along with further discussion confirming any such findings, would help here. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 16:26, 11 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the relisting rationale, User:Coffee. We're definitely not looking at a glut of English-language sources, unfortunately, but based on usage the shorter name appears to be slightly preferred (although the longer is used in the Wall Street Journal and some academic sources, the shorter is used in more number of academic sources (1, 2, 3, 4, [https://snm.nise.eu/index.php/studies/article/download/68/59/210 5]) and by this English language page from the Agenzia Informazioni e Sicurezza Interna. But either one is preferable to the current one.--Yaksar (let's chat) 18:32, 14 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

@User:Colin M: Could you please explain why you moved the article? A requested move is not a vote, but only two editors out of five supported it. --Checco (talk) 17:00, 22 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Three users in favor, in truth: the proponent's opinion is implied. --Scia Della Cometa (talk) 22:34, 22 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Checco: I tried to explain my reasoning in my closing statement above (note that it's split over three paragraphs - you may have missed the ones after the first line). But I'm happy to elaborate if you have any more specific questions. Colin M (talk) 17:37, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@User:Colin M: Three users against three are not consensus, in my view. Despite the fact that there are few English sources on the issue, "Sardinia Nation" was a simple and uncontroversial translation. At the least the article should be moved to "Sardigna Natzione", as it clearly the most common name in Sardinia (see also how the officialwebsite is named). However, there is no need of using an abstruse Sardinan name, when a clear and uncontroversial English name is available. --Checco (talk) 15:18, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

But an RM is not decided by counting heads (see WP:NOTDEMOCRACY). One of those who opposed the move did so based on a concern that was subsequently addressed (i.e. lack of sources supporting the move). The other two provided rationales which did not have a basis in naming policy. Per WP:DISCARD: The closer is there to judge the consensus of the community, after discarding irrelevant arguments: those that flatly contradict established policy, those based on personal opinion only, those that are logically fallacious, and those that show no understanding of the matter of issue. Regarding "Sardigna Natzione" vs. "Sardigna Natzione Indipendentzia", see the last paragraph of my closing statement. There was no clear consensus for one option over the other. If you want to start another RM discussion about moving to the shorter name, I have no objection to that. I don't even think it would be out-of-line to boldly move to the shorter name (though anyone else would be free to revert it and go down the RM route, per WP:BRD). Colin M (talk) 16:33, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]