Talk:Sanaa/Archive 1

Untitled

And the external link is broken ...

Sana'a is a magnificent place. Volunteers welcome. --DLL 17:31, 22 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Slavery

One of the most popular attractions is Suq al-Milh (Salt Market), where it is possible to buy not only salt but also bread, spices, raisins, cotton, copper, pottery, silverware, antiques and slaves.

How about "...and, formerly, slaves"? Flapdragon (talk) 13:04, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've tried to add this back in multiple times, but Camw continues to remove it. I know slaves are sold in Old Sana'a-- and this is one of the few places where the truth can be set free. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.124.188.243 (talk) 10:39, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It kept getting reverted because you refuse to provide independent, reliable sources for the statement. "I know" is not an appropriate reference per WP:OR Camw (talk) 10:45, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've provided sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.211.197.95 (talk) 18:45, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No sources provided, so I've deleted the slavery reference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.124.237.142 (talk) 17:06, 15 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Source provided, re-added the slavery component. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.124.237.155 (talk) 14:02, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

San‘a’ vs Sana'a

The current name of the article seems rather hypercorrect. The town is commonly known as Sana'a in English, and WP:NAME not only recommends common names, but advises against "Separate accent-like and/or quote-like characters" other than the simple apostrophe '. Jpatokal (talk) 05:34, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

New Sana'a

I removed this section because it read more or less like a travellog rather than a legitimate entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.124.188.243 (talk) 11:07, 3 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Requested Move

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Move Parsecboy (talk) 03:17, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to move this article to Sana'a on the basis of English usage. Multiple reliable sources prefer this spelling; although some prefer other alternates, San‘a’ seems to practically nonexistant:

Sana'a

Sanaa

Sana

New York Times

I think Sana'a fulfills the attributes of "Primary Transcription" laid out in the Manual of Style for Arabic and follows the spirit of WP:Use English. Erudy (talk) 06:46, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The name as spelt does look rather complicated. On a technical note, the two apostrophes represent different letters in Arabic. The first apostrophe (‘) represents ayn (ع), the second (’) is hamza (ء). The former is generally considered to represent the stronger sound. So, if one of these is written, it should be the ayn. However, our article on Qur'an does use an apostrophe in the title to represent the hamza (here a madda). The word-final hamza does affect the pronunciation in Classical Arabic, but I couldn't say if or how the local pronunciation might differ from this. — Gareth Hughes (talk) 17:59, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support. The current title is a mix of a full transcription (Ṣan‘ā’) and common variants used in English sources. Although Sana'a is a bit ugly, it seems to be used widely enough. If not that then Sanaa is still preferable to the current title. — AjaxSmack 16:12, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No more water?

Estrin, James (05-01-2010). "On Assignment: Yemen, With Nuance". NYT. Retrieved 05-01-2010. Sana [sic] could become the first capital to be emptied because there's just no more water (quoting journalist Karim Ben Khelifa.) {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= and |date= (help) --Pawyilee (talk) 07:46, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Amanat Al Asimah

What is Amanat Al Asimah?. (see Category:Amanat Al Asimah Governorate and Template:Amanat Al Asimah Governorate) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.84.132.44 (talk) 13:20, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Tahrir Square

There is also a Tahrir Square in Sanaa. --147.84.132.44 (talk) 14:43, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Presidential Palace

Put more info about the Sanaa presidential palace, also called Sanaa presidential house( دار الرئاسة )= location, building, features... It is in the heart of the protests. More info: in 60 Meters Rd, Saná, Yemen [1] --147.84.132.44 (talk) 14:59, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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Timeline of Sana'a

What is missing from the recently created city timeline article? Please add relevant content. Contributions welcome. Thank you. -- M2545 (talk) 15:07, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:2012 Sanaʽa bombing which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 18:50, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinate error

Faraz khan raja — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.39.184.189 (talk) 14:47, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Time of establishment?

Hi all, the lead says Sana'a is one of the oldest continuously inhabited cities in the world. However, Sana'a is not listed at the linked place and no references have been provided for that claim. Is there no source for when it was established, even approximately (which century, even millenium)? --Pgallert (talk) 09:38, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think that bit could be removed for now. It seems to be based on the tradition that the place was founded by Shem, son of Noah. --Al Ameer son (talk) 17:20, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. The Hebrew article, which is an FA, says it was founded in the 2nd-1st century BC. --Al Ameer son (talk) 17:22, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 14 November 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: There is consensus to move the article to Sanaa without any marks, and this article will be moved accordingly. No action will be taken on related articles, but a multi RM is encouraged — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:37, 26 November 2019 (UTC) — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:37, 26 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sanaʽa → Sana'a – Curly apostrophes are discouraged even in titles per MOS:CURLY. Jalen Folf (talk) 03:20, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's not a curly apostrophe; it's something else. This has character code U+02BD. A curly apostrophe is U+2019 and a left single quote is U+2018. But see the article ʽ, which seems to say it may be some obsolete character. —BarrelProof (talk) 16:20, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
comment – The actual policy (not essay, not guideline, not MoS, but WP:AT policy) is at WP:TSC, 2nd part of second bullet:
..., various apostrophe(-like) variants (’ʻ ʾ ʿ ᾿ ῾ ‘ ’ ^c), should generally not be used in page titles. A common exception is the apostrophe character (') itself (e.g. Anthony d'Offay), which should, however, be used sparingly (e.g. Quran instead of Qur'an). If, exceptionally, other variants are used, a redirect with the apostrophe variant should be created (e.g. 'Abdu'l-Bahá redirects to `Abdu'l-Bahá).

--Francis Schonken (talk) 16:45, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

support – (compare my comment above) I see rather a similarity with Quran (thus would also support a move to Sanaa, which seems a perfectly normal variant spelling) than with the intricacy of `Abdu'l-Bahá. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:45, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment – That character is not an apostrophe. What is it? Should it be dropped? Or converted to a straight apostrophe? I can't decide until I know more about it. Dicklyon (talk) 04:25, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment – this odd spelling is common in WP; we should investigate why. And result should also apply to Sanaʽa Governorate and Battle of Sanaʽa and maybe more. A multi-RM would have been more appropriate. Dicklyon (talk) 04:33, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Kwamikagami: I see it was you who said "use proper Unicode character" on these, so I'm inclined to believe it might be right, though I don't see anything that looks like it in English sources. Can you explain what this is? Dicklyon (talk) 04:39, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's an ayin. A straight apostrophe could be a typewriter substitution for either an ayin or a glottal stop, so such usage would be ambiguous. (A reader wouldn't know if it's supposed to be Sanaʽa or Sanaʼa.) At least, I don't think we purposefully misspell the titles of our articles like that. Also, a straight apostrophe is a punctuation mark, and this isn't -- it's a letter. It's equivalent to the many WP articles that use the Hawaiian ʻokina, like ʻIolani Palace, Queen Liliʻuokalani, the interstellar asteroid ʻOumuamua, Kaʻaʻawa, Hawaii, Israel Kamakawiwoʻole, Auliʻi Cravalho, Hōkūleʻa, Lōʻihi Seamount, etc. Also the IPA glottalization diacritic in the TNO 229762 Gǃkúnǁʼhòmdímà (that <ǃ> is not an exclamation mark either, but a letter from the Khoekhoe alphabet), Kwakʼwala and their language Kwakwakaʼwakw, etc. In the past, those have been accepted under the argument that they're an IPA and alphabetic diacritic/letter, not an apostrophe, and that the 'no curly apostrophe' rule was intended to stop edit wars over whether or not to use curly apostrophes as punctuation.

ISO is starting to replace straight ASCII apostrophes with Unicode ayin, aspiration and glottal stop in language names.

There are other articles where a straight "apostrophe" is retained, but it's actually the saltillo <Ꞌ ꞌ>. People might not object to that because it's not curly, but it's the same kind of use of a dedicated Unicode character instead of substituting an alphabetic letter with a punctuation mark. — kwami (talk) 05:25, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If it's an ayin, shouldn't it be a U+02BF instead of a U+02BD? —BarrelProof (talk) 19:35, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@BarrelProof:. That's the Semiticist and Egyptological character. They also use U+02BE (right half ring) for hamza. For routine romanization of Arabic, Hans Wehr transliteration and the Survey of Egypt System (SES) use the U+02BD we currently have. Other systems use U+02BB, but that's also the 'okina. The hamza for both of those is U+02BC. On a lot of WP pages, I see a mixed system, with U+02BC for the hamza and U+02BF for the ayin, but that's just screwy. — kwami (talk) 03:37, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There is Ayin in the middle and there is Hamza at the end, it should be Sanaʿaʾ. I would suggest "Sanaa" if there was no agreement on Sanaʿa or Sanaʿaʾ. I would also support Ṣanaʿaʾ because it helps to understand how the name is pronounced and I dont think COMMONNAME is relevant because the spelling is the same and the name is the same we just added diacritic marks. I guess COMMONNAME is about totally different names or spellings.--SharabSalam (talk) 21:19, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody said COMMONNAME afaik, I said WP:TSC. Completely different rules: both are part of the policy – but not rules that follow from one another (otherwise they wouldn't need to be written down separately, and in different sections of the policy page. --Francis Schonken (talk) 21:34, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Sanaa" would be acceptable, IMO, if people judge it to be sufficiently anglicized (like we have "Hawaii" instead of "Hawaiʻi". `Abdu'l-Bahá is a stupid example, and should be moved. It's the worst of ASCII substitutions for names people can't be bothered to typeset correctly, and there's no excuse for it now that we have Unicode. It would've been okay in the early 1990s when people were still printing on dot-matrix, but not now. — kwami (talk) 05:30, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There's currently a discussion at Talk:`Abdu'l-Bahá#Spelling: feel free to participate. If such discussion would lead to a renaming of that article, the `Abdu'l-Bahá example would need to be updated in the policy. If, on the other hand, you'd know a more stable example as a replacement for the `Abdu'l-Bahá example at WP:AT, feel free to propose at WT:AT.

As for the current RM: it would maybe best to abort it (if the OP thinks that a good idea), and then re-initiate a multi-RM, including:

... and other article titles containing Sanaa variants, if any. The rationale for the RM should anyway be based on the WP:AT policy, not MoS or whatever other less applicable guidance of a lower tier. --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:29, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support Francis Schonken proposal. I think that it should be "Sanaa", same as Hawaii, Quran etc. Also Britannica uses Sanaa. And per WP:TSC, as Francis Schonken said.--SharabSalam (talk) 21:53, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose proposed move as worded, since the symbol in the current title is clearly not an MOS:APOSTROPHE, and English style guidelines like the one cited clearly do not apply to romanized foreign words: if we had a guideline that said not to add anachronistic macrons to Old English or Latin names, that wouldn't justify removing the macrons from articles on Japanese topics. Neutral on any other separate proposal that might get discussed such as one based on WP:COMMONNAME: The New York Times seems to be uncertain whether to call the city "Sanaa" or "Sana", but does not seem to use either "Sanaʽa" or "Sana'a".[2] That being said, it has long been my view, and that of many others (including apparently the framers of COMMONNAME, who chose to fill it with examples like "Bill Clinton" and "Germany") that COMMONNAME applies to topics that are commonly known among English Wikipedia's readership, not to topics known to specialists and certain small groups of readers, and I don't think most Americans or British could tell you the name of Yemen's capital regardless of how you want it spelled. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:27, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

On that note, Quran is definitely a topic to which COMMONNAME does apply, and so the analogy is not apt. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:28, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per kwami's explanation. Dicklyon (talk) 03:58, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Preparing multi

Page and category names currently using the apostrophe character

Preparing multi, part 2 (after RM closure)

I moved to <Sanaa> those I could, but left a (Unicode) ayin for the schools that has established English spellings with ayin. — kwami (talk) 01:23, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The closure report mentioned "... a multi RM is encouraged", so I propose to proceed with one. Several pages were moved to the "Sanaa" version, leaving others at "Sana'a" or "Sanaʽa" if I understand correctly (will try to make an overview later today). This means that there is even less consistency than before the 14 November RM, thus calling for a multi, as recommended by the closer of that RM. Afaics there has been no effort, thus far, to harmonise article content to new page names which is also something that should be looked into (although not part of RM proceedings). Since all categories are still at the "Sana'a" version afaics, and I'd try to avoid a combined multi-RM and multi-CfD (which I don't even know how to conduct), and the "Sana'a" version seems very common in various reliable sources, I'd try to harmonise on that version – despite the outcome of the closed RM (I suppose potential !voters might have refrained from participating in that RM seeing that a multi was more than likely to come). --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:38, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Page names after RM (current name: bold; recently moved name marked by asterisk)
	Apostrophe	Ayin	Neither
C.	Category:Sana'a Governorate
C.	Category:Geography of Sana'a Governorate
C.	Category:Districts of Sana'a Governorate
C.	Category:Populated places in Sana'a Governorate
C.	Category:Villages in Sana'a Governorate
C.	Category:People from Sana'a Governorate
C.	Category:People from Sana'a
C.	Category:Sana'a
C.	Category:Buildings and structures in Sana'a
C.	Category:Crime in Sana'a
C.	Category:History of Sana'a
C.	Category:Centuries in Sana'a
C.	Category:20th century in Sana'a
C.	Category:21st century in Sana'a
C.	Category:Military history of Sana'a
C.	Category:Media in Sana'a
C.	Category:Sport in Sana'a
C.	Category:Sana'a Governorate geography stubs
C.	Category:Mosques in Sana'a
A.	Hadda, Sana'a	Hadda, Sanaʽa	Hadda, Sanaa*
A.	Pakistan School Sana'a	Pakistan School Sanaʽa*	Pakistan School Sanaa
A.	Sana'a British School	Sanaʽa British School*	Sanaa British School
A.	Sana'a International School	Sanaʽa International School	Sanaa International School*
A.	Sana'a University	Sanaʽa University	Sanaa University
A.	Tahrir Square, Sana'a	Tahrir Square, Sanaʽa	Tahrir Square, Sanaa*
A.	University of Science and Technology, Sana'a	University of Science and Technology, Sanaʽa	University of Science and Technology, Sanaa*
A.	Sana'a Turkish Memorial Cemetery	Sanaʽa Turkish Memorial Cemetery	Sanaa Turkish Memorial Cemetery*
A.	St. Mary Help of Christians Church, Sana'a	St. Mary Help of Christians Church, Sanaʽa	St. Mary Help of Christians Church, Sanaa*
A.	2013 Sana'a attack	2013 Sanaʽa attack	2013 Sanaa attack*
A.	Al–Qalis Church, Sana'a	Al–Qalis Church, Sanaʽa	Al–Qalis Church, Sanaa*
A.	Sana'a school shooting	Sanaʽa school shooting	Sanaa school shooting
A.	Siege of Sana'a (1967)	Siege of Sanaʽa (1967)	Siege of Sanaa (1967)*
A.	2016 Sana'a funeral airstrike	2016 Sanaʽa funeral airstrike	2016 Sanaa funeral airstrike*
A.	January 2015 Sana'a bombing	January 2015 Sanaʽa bombing	January 2015 Sanaa bombing*
A.	2015 Sana'a mosque bombings	2015 Sanaʽa mosque bombings	2015 Sanaa mosque bombings*
A.	Siege of Sana'a (570)	Siege of Sanaʽa (570)	Siege of Sanaa (570)*
A.	Al-Ahli Club Sana'a	Al-Ahli Club Sanaʽa	Al-Ahli Club Sanaa*
A.	Al-Wehda SCC (Sana'a)	Al-Wehda SCC (Sanaʽa)	Al-Wehda SCC (Sanaa)*
A.	Sana'a (patrol vessel)	Sanaʽa (patrol vessel)*	Sanaa (patrol vessel)
A.	List of mosques in Sana'a	List of mosques in Sanaʽa	List of mosques in Sanaa*
A.	Al Shohada Mosque (Sana'a)	Al Shohada Mosque (Sanaʽa)	Al Shohada Mosque (Sanaa)*
A.	Sana'a Institute for the Arabic Language ~~San'a Institute for the Arabic Language~~	Sanaʽa Institute for the Arabic Language*	Sanaa Institute for the Arabic Language
A.	Al-Jahiliyah, Sana'a	Al-Jahiliyah, Sanaʽa	Al-Jahiliyah, Sanaa*
A.	Al-Kharabah, Sana'a	Al-Kharabah, Sanaʽa	Al-Kharabah, Sanaa*
A.	Al-Manar, Sana'a	Al-Manar, Sanaʽa	Al-Manar, Sanaa*
A.	Al-Masajid, Sana'a	Al-Masajid, Sanaʽa	Al-Masajid, Sanaa*
A.	Al-Qarah, Sana'a	Al-Qarah, Sanaʽa	Al-Qarah, Sanaa*
A.	Al-Qasim, Sana'a	Al-Qasim, Sanaʽa	Al-Qasim, Sanaa*
A.	Al-Qufl, Sana'a	Al-Qufl, Sanaʽa	Al-Qufl, Sanaa*
A.	Al-Watan, Sana'a	Al-Watan, Sanaʽa	Al-Watan, Sanaa*
A.	Ar Rawdah, Sana'a	Ar Rawdah, Sanaʽa	Ar Rawdah, Sanaa*
A.	Ash Sharaf, Sana'a	Ash Sharaf, Sanaʽa	Ash Sharaf, Sanaa*
A.	Hadrami, Sana'a	Hadrami, Sanaʽa	Hadrami, Sanaa*
A.	Numayr, Sana'a	Numayr, Sanaʽa	Numayr, Sanaa*
A.	Wasit, Sana'a	Wasit, Sanaʽa	Wasit, Sanaa*
A.	Sana'a	Sanaʽa	Sanaa*
A.	Sana'a International Airport	Sanaʽa International Airport	Sanaa International Airport
A.	2012 Sana'a bombing	2012 Sanaʽa bombing	2012 Sanaa bombing
A.	Timeline of Sana'a	Timeline of Sanaʽa	Timeline of Sanaa
A.	Battle of Sana'a (2011)	Battle of Sanaʽa (2011)	Battle of Sanaa (2011)*
A.	Battle of Sana'a (2014)	Battle of Sanaʽa (2014)	Battle of Sanaa (2014)*
A.	Battle of Sana'a (2017)	Battle of Sanaʽa (2017)	Battle of Sanaa (2017)*
A.	Sana'a manuscript	Sanaʽa manuscript	Sanaa manuscript*
A.	Battle of Sana'a	Battle of Sanaʽa (dab page)	Battle of Sanaa
A.	Great Mosque of Sana'a	Great Mosque of Sanaʽa	Great Mosque of Sanaa*
A.	Sana'a Governorate	Sanaʽa Governorate	Sanaa Governorate

--Francis Schonken (talk) 14:24, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note

Hi I just want to note that Sana'a city is different geographically from the old city. The old city is part of Sana'a city but it is not the Sana'a city. Even in Arabic Wikipedia we have a separated article for the old city. Yet this article says that the official name of Sana'a city is the old city of Sana'a which is not true. The official name is Amanat al-Asimah which is usually translated to "Sana'a" in English, that's per my passport which says in Arabic that I was born in Amant al-Asimah but in English it is translated to Sana'a.--SharabSalam (talk) 09:18, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The World Heritage Site (WHS) part of the infobox should use the "official name" of the World Heritage Site as designated by UNESCO; the reference to the relevant page of the official WHS site is in the box (click it); there's no rule that a WHS site should cover the entire surface of Sanaa: often for WHS cities it is only the historic centre that is included, with perhaps some part of the rest of the city as buffer zone. Alternatively, if it is too confusing to use the designation sub-box for WHS in the infobox, the designation box can be removed from the over-all template, and the separate {{Infobox UNESCO World Heritage Site}} can be used elsewhere on the page (as it is, for instance, done at Padua#Culture). --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:12, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I moved the infobox to the old city section. I didn't notice that there were two infoboxes. I think the old city should have its own article. Leo1pard tried to create an article about it. I will see if I can have time and write an article about the old city.--SharabSalam (talk) 17:55, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The WHS website uses both ⟨Sana'a⟩ and ⟨Sana’a⟩ (in the possessive ⟨Sana’a’s⟩), the same in French, but just ⟨Sana’a⟩ in Dutch and Spanish. In other words, they just stuck something between the a's, but don't seem to have cared what it was, and presumably let their word-processor decide. In Dutch and Spanish, as well as in the English and French text, that means they got it backwards, as hamza rather than ayin. So while this is an argument to write the ayin, it doesn't do anything for how it should be written. — kwami (talk) 22:42, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Re. "... while this is an argument to write the ayin ..." – it isn't, on the contrary:

Both ' and ’ are correct glyphs for the apostrophe character
At the WHS website they are used interchangeably, in other words, searching with Sana'a yields the same results as searching with Sana’a; as said elsewhere, searching with Sanaʽa yields different (and erroneous) results.
Afaics, all methods of searching use ' and ’ interchangeably, but the same can not be said about ʽ (e.g. Google does not seem to differentiate ʽ from ' and ’, but other search methods, like Firefox's search engine, do)
At Wikipedia, the rules are that only ' can be used as a glyph for the apostrophe character
For names deriving from Arabic script, ʻ and ʽ are only used in transliteration systems (UNGEGN and SES respectively, see Talk:`Abdu'l-Bahá#Spelling). Wikipedia article titles are mostly *not* transliterations. The transliteration of the foreign script is usually in the lead (e.g. Ṣanʿāʾ in this case, consisting of glyphs half of which are *not* used in the current article title). We should, imho, avoid a half-transliteration in article titles, which is a botched pretence leading to incompatibility issues. For article titles: either it is a complete and correct transliteration (which can only be done for names that never before have appeared in English-language literature – in other words, almost never), or it is a representation of the name as it is used in English-language literature, which almost never follows a strict transliteration system.

I only see further argument not to use the ayin character, or at least to use it only very sparingly. --Francis Schonken (talk) 05:54, 18 November 2019 (UTC) (updated 07:05, 18 November 2019 (UTC))[reply]

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Al-Saleh mosque in sanaa.jpg

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