Talk:Sam Brinton

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Timetable

The exact timetable of Brinton's employment with the feds does not seem clear from the available sources. MonMothma (talk) 17:47, 17 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We have this source[1] in the article saying the start was in June 2022, and then the CNN article[2] quotes Brinton's Twitter placing the date as June 17th. Also I'm also noticing the number of sources is down from 53 to 49 which seems to go against WP:PRESERVE and now we have a massive gap in their nuclear engineering career from 2016-2022 which doesn't improve the page. BBQboffin (talk) 23:38, 17 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Which organization of article material is better?

@MonMothma made a large-scale edit to the page today to this[3], and while I appreciate WP:BOLD, I am concerned about the removal of long-standing content/sources and the rewriting of the lede (Brinton is best known for their DoE work). I reverted the edits to yesterday's version [4] which I think is a superior presentation of the material and the combined efforts of many editors. BBQboffin (talk) 23:56, 17 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I looked at those, too, BBQ. I think MM made some definite improvements, such as this one, but like you I was a bit overwhelmed by such a major reorganization, and while I had decided to move on, I wasn't surprised to see the reversion. Maybe we could do this a bit more slowly, perhaps with some tags first? MM, since you're fairly new, please understand this isn't really a reflection on your work or a rejection of it! It's very typical for a major edit to a BLP that falls into two contentious topics. Valereee (talk) 11:52, 18 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Does the writer of this think Sam is two people? he/she keeps referring to one person as they, their. It's really confusing.

Does the writer of this think Sam is two people? he/she keeps referring to one person as they, their. It's really confusing. 98.184.109.134 (talk) 13:53, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is not one writer; Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that anyone can edit. However, we are obliged to follow the Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography#Gender identity policy on this article, and so we use the singular they pronoun in reference to this article subject. BBQboffin^{grill me} 16:42, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, IP. The article explains in the Sam_Brinton#Personal_life section that they use singular they pronouns. Valereee (talk) 17:33, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It may be more useful to replace "they" with "Brinton", which keeps gender ambiguity, but is singular. "They" does make it confusing as if this is referring to more than one person (which it is not). 71.223.77.77 (talk) 16:55, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In English, 'they' has long been commonly understood to refer to a single person whose gender is not known/specified. English speakers understand things like "Each diner picks up their own plate and chooses where they want to sit" instead of "Each diner picks up his or her own place and chooses where he or she wants to sit". In recent years this usage has been extended to individuals who prefer they/them pronouns. Confusion is unlikely among native English speakers. Valereee (talk) 17:10, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As a native english speaker it did cause a lot of confusion when I was reading it, which is why I checked to see if this talk existed. The example you used "Each diner picks up their own plate and chooses where they want to sit" is still using they and their in a plural sense as it is referring to each diner as in multiple diners coming into the presumed restaurant therefore you would refer to it was they come in and get their own plate. My contribution and opinion to add to the talk is that the use of they/them/their descriptors is in fact confusing to try to read especially if information would be added that involved speaking about the subject with multiple other people involved. Bntlyprce (talk) 00:12, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedians are obliged to follow the WP:MOS on all pages, so if you think that should be changed to discontinue the usage of the singular they in biographies, you should make your case here. If and when you're successful in gaining consensus there, then the change will be implemented across the encyclopedia to your liking. BBQboffin^{grill me} 00:39, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My understanding is that when pronouns are used, they must be the pronouns the subject has identified as using. However, I don't believe MOS requires us to use any pronouns in any particular sentence. There absolutely are sentences in which it would be unclear to use a person's correct they/them pronouns, in a way that it would not be unclear to use the pronouns of a person who happened to be binary. As simple as "Harry and Sally arrived, but he had to leave right away." "Sam and Kevin arrived, but they had to leave right away." In the second sentence, a reader who knows that Sam uses they/them pronouns wouldn't know who left. And a reader who doesn't already know that piece of information would think that Sam and Kevin both left, with no idea that the sentence even could have been ambiguous. If Sam and Kevin both left, then "both" should be inserted after "they." If only Sam left, "they" should be replaced with "Sam." As a native English speaker, I agree with previous statements that singular "they" pronouns can be difficult to parse. The established previous usage was for unspecified or unknown persons, not for a specific, known individual. DavidK93 (talk) 03:01, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And if we have in the article the equivalent of "Brinton and Dave Johnson arrived, but they had to leave right away" we can definitely change it to "Brinton and Dave Johnson arrived, but Brinton had to leave right away." Is there somewhere we have such a sentence? Valereee (talk) 12:12, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That’s my question as well—let’s please stay on specific improvements if any are needed, being mindful of WP:NOTFORUM. Innisfree987 (talk) 19:25, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

+1 Valereee (talk) 19:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Each diner picks up his/her/their own plate" is singular. "All diners pick up their own plates" is plural. Valereee (talk) 12:24, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

While I think the original post is disingenuous and in bad faith, I do think there is one spot where "they" can benefit from being replaced with "Brinton."

"while attending the university, they organized its first pride march"

It took me a couple of reads to realize the meaning. I originally thought it was an error, it would be strange for a university to organize a parade for a person. Then, I realized I was wrongfully attributing "it" as referring to Brinton because "they" seemed to be strongly pointing to using the university as it's subject.

I think it would be clearer, in that example only, to use "Brinton" instead of "they." "They" initially, at least in my brain, was associated with the university in a stronger way, not the individual. "It" being used to refer to Brinton is incorrect, and that's how you untangle the sentence, but it seems to me to be unnecessarily complicated and can be easily simplified using "Brinton." 4Got2Flush (talk) 01:03, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

4Got2Flush, I changed it--thanks. Yes, the antecedent is often the closest preceding noun. And I agree with your opening statement--thanks. Drmies (talk) 01:06, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Same, good catch. Valereee (talk) 14:42, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And re: the disingenuousness...I find it pretty funny the OP had to use "He/she" to avoid using "They" to refer to (what they incorrectly assumed was) a single individual so that no one could point out they'd just used "they" to refer to a single individual. Valereee (talk) 15:00, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly, get mental help if you think it's ok to be this disgustingly anti trans. 4Got2Flush (talk) 05:56, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Birth year

Is there a reason why the birth year is 1986/1987? I cannot fathom how a person can be born in two years. I have never seen this style used before. It seems odd, have they stated two different birth years?

Maybe they don't know their birth date? That seems almost impossible as well. Wouldn't there be a birth certificate somewhere?

Additionally, wouldn't their birth date information be public since they were in a high office in the federal government?

Does anybody have an explanation? 4Got2Flush (talk) 01:08, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's on a lot of biography pages where a source says a person was X years old at a known date, but they could have just turned X years old the day before, or they were X years old at the time but their birthday is one day later; a person's birth year is not known from their age today. Often the date can be tracked down, but for non-public figures, we're obliged to follow WP:BLPPRIVACY as many article subjects consider their birthdates private information in these days of rampant identity theft. BBQboffin^{grill me} 06:22, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Makes sense, thanks? 4Got2Flush (talk) 12:58, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

!

4Got2Flush (talk) 12:58, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 November 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

all pronouns in the article should be changed to "he" (BLP violation removed). If it is permissible to engage in this absurdity then my pronouns are now "his Royal Highness". 2600:100C:B063:836D:C51C:FF78:FFF3:7ED4 (talk) 05:27, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not done. Per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biography#Gender_identity Rainsage (talk) 06:02, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]