Talk:Salvia forskaehlei

Spelling confusion

There are many different spellings used, in even reliable sources, for this plant. It was moved to the current spelling, Salvia forsskaolei, from the previous Salvia forsskaolii, based on how "MBG and Kew" spell it, according to the editor who moved it. I couldn't find either of those sources spelling it as forsskaolei, but then nobody seems to agree on the correct spelling. This is how some of the more reliable sources and plant databases spell the specific epithet:

IPNI: both Salvia forskahlei[1] and Salvia forskohlei[2]
GRIN: Salvia forskahlii.[3]
Euro-Med Plant Database: Salvia forsskaolei[4]
Cabrillo College Hort. Department (they specialize in Salvia): Salvia forskaohlei[5]

Common usage by the masses, using Google hits, just show the extent of the confusion:

Salvia forskahlei (IPNI): 998
Salvia forskohlei (IPNI): 207
Salvia forskaohlei (Cabrillo): 898
Salvia forskahlii (GRIN): 258
Salvia forsskaolii (previous version of this page): 3,810
Salvia forsskaolei (current version of this page): 4

GRIN and IPNI are typically the most accepted, but common usage doesn't seem to agree. Begging forgiveness ahead of time if I misspelled it in any of my examples above.... First Light (talk) 03:25, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The name is a mess on this one, and maybe Linnaeus is to blame for this one:[6]

Lamiaceae Salvia forskahlei L. Mant. 1: 26
Lamiaceae Salvia forskohlei L. Syst. ed. 12: 67
Lamiaceae Salvia forsskaolei L. Syst. Nat. (ed. 12) 2: 67 1767

The oldest name is not used very often and the most common name this species is found under currently , both in technical and non technical works is Salvia forskahlii Hardyplants (talk) 03:51, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Seems the species was named after Finish botanist Pehr Forskahl, or spelled Peter Forsskål, which only adds to the mess. Hardyplants (talk)

The spelling used in 1770 was Forskahl, note his association with two Salvia species in this work.[7] Hardyplants (talk) 06:48, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

According to GRIN the original spelling was forskahlei. Some OR from the International Code of Botanical Nomenclature (Vienna code):

60.11. "The use of a termination (for example -i, -ii, -ae, -iae, -anus, or -ianus) contrary to Rec. 60C.1 is treated as an error to be corrected"

60C1.b "If the personal name ends with a consonant (except -er), substantival epithets are formed by adding -i- (stem augmentation) plus the genitive inflection appropriate to the sex and number of the person(s) honoured (e.g. lecard-ii for Lecard (m)" Melburnian (talk) 05:26, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Should we move the article ~~back to the other spelling~~ to Salvia forskahlii? I think so based on these older works: [8][9][10] Hardyplants (talk) 06:18, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's tricky, there are issues on "ss" vs "s", "ao" vs "a" and "ei" vs "ii". Here is something interesting I have come across directly related to this dilemma: [11]Melburnian (talk) 07:17, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That is a good find! I wish they would have settled the issue for this species?. Hardyplants (talk) 07:26, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's a great article - obviously this isn't the first time down this road. If I'm reading all of this right, am I seeing that Salvia forskahlii is orthographically correct? If yes, and since it's used by GRIN, then it might be the best choice? But I can't see the entire article (and I've never learned those naming rules).... First Light (talk) 16:18, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't seen the whole article either. Going back to the current code, it says: -"60.6. Diacritical signs are not used in Latin plant names. In names (either new or old) drawn from words in which such signs appear, the signs are to be suppressed with the necessary transcription of the letters so modified; for example ... å becomes ao." But that again is OR, I'm just pointing it out to illustrate the complexity that may be leading to some of the confusion. The main dilemma, from my point of view, is that two of my main online sources, GRIN and Kew, show very different spellings.Melburnian (talk) 06:06, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]