Talk:Salsa music/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Trombone?

I think the role of the trombone in salsa music is highly overrated in this article, most prominently in the Ed Morales quotes. While it is true that the trombone plays an important role in many salsa songs, I wouldn't go so far as to make it the distinguishing feature. There are plenty salsa bands without trombones (e.g. Celia Cruz in her Sonora Matancera years); in fact, there are even milestone recordings without any horns at all (e.g. Cheo Feliciano's "El Ratón"). A typical salsa horn section, however, would be 2 trombones, 2 to 4 trumpets and a baritone sax - this is what 1990's top-selling New York salsa acts use (Celia Cruz: "Mi vida es cantar", José Alberto 'El Canario': "Diferente", to name just 2 albums). But pretty much anything goes, if arranged well. There are bands with only trombones (Palmieri's "La Perfecta") trombones and flute (Los Van Van, Libre), trumpets and saxes (Manolín "El Médico de la Salsa"), big band, trumpets, sax(es) and trombone(s), trumpets only, trombones only, and not to forget the true "charanga" section - violins and flute. Anyway; I don't think that there is a single instrument making salsa what it is. A typical basic line-up would certainly be helpful though; I'd suggest: - a lead singer - 2 or more coro singers (these usually play hand percussion as well: maracas, güiro, claves) - piano - bass (typically baby bass, an electric double bass) - congas - timbal - bongó - a horn section; see above. --Tdammers 16:25, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, you might be correct, but you need to cite sources if you want to add something to the article. Tuf-Kat 22:00, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the trombone is not always used, but I believe that when "salsa" emerged in the early 1970s in NYC, one of the things that differentiated it from mambo and from Cuban music was a more harsh kind of "street" sound that had a lot to do with how the horns were used, and the trombone was a prominent feature in this transformation, at the time. Mona-Lynn 17:37, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Trombones, schmbones. Roena and Apollo Sound didn't have a prominent trombone-driven sound, were salsa acts and quite popular in the 1970s. Sonora Ponceña was hot at that time with just trumpets.

It's not instrumentation that makes it salsa so much as interpretation. The New York bands played genres like son and guaracha differently. Not enough to where you would say it's another rhythm or genre but enough so that Pacheco did not sound exactly like Sonora Matancera or Roberto Faz.

And salsa is not really a 1970s thing. These bands didn't drop down from outer space and begin playing this groovy new music. It evolved out of bands from the 1930s and 1940s, Cubans and Puerto Ricans living in New York and playing mostly Cuban genres. So songs that came out in Havana would then become hot in NY and covered. Occasionally the reverse would happen, but mostly the stream was Cuba to New York. Jorrin created the chachacha in 1949, so New York was playing it.

By the 1960s one of the last Cuban rhythms was influencing NY: mozambique. Other than that, no more Cuban rhythms being adopted. Musicians kept playing, kept the tradition going yet still added their creative touches and that's salsa. And ultimately it comes down to interpretation, that is what sets apart Barretto from Los Karachi or Los Reyes 73, Cuban bands of the same era.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Metancala (talk • contribs) 02:37, August 22, 2007 (UTC).

1970s section; also, Celia Cruz

Two observations:

• (1) The section on the 1970s includes several apparent violations of NPOV, but I can't personally disentangle them given that I don't have the source material at hand. It would appear that some of the phrasing that slams different artists may come from the cited material, but if so, this is NOT made clear (e.g., Celia Cruz, a Cuban, is identified as less authentic and traditional than Rubén Blades, a Panamanian [?!]; Blades is subsequently tagged as being some kind of puppet or tool). Someone with the source material handy needs to reword these lines so that any criticisms or non-neutral labels are identified within the text as being the words of the cited author, or whosever words they are.
• (2) On the subject of Celia Cruz, her autobiography has some material worth citing here — I know, be bold, but it's late and I haven't the patience to look it up right now — in which she says (a) that Tito Puente and others criticized the term "salsa," but that she believes the repackaging of Cuban music under that name saved it from dying out among the younger generation; and (b) that she is not a practitioner of santería (a claim that one of the editors appeared to be trying to source, according to the current footnotes). Lawikitejana 07:09, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

An other observation: The artist Fruko y sus tesos is mentioned in the 80s but in his own article it appears that they are already singing since the 70s. Should this be fixed? --Sergioroa 01:56, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations!

To everyone who worked on this article. Viven los Nuyoricans! (yes, my Spanish sucks:) ). NinaEliza 15:38, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

If Puentes claim has not been cited to a source why is it in the article ?

^ Manuel, Caribbean Currents, pg. 74; Manuel does not cite a specific source for the Puente claim, nor mention any specific individuals who object to the term on the basis of vagueness, a misleading nature or marketing objections.

WikiProject Puerto Rico

Saludos a todos desde Puerto Rico. I've recently tagged the article as part of WikiProject Puerto Rico, since it's an important part of Puerto Rican culture and music. But I'm just dropping by to recognize the great effort by those members of the Cuba WikiProject and all other members who contributed to the article, which brought it to well-deserved FA status. I hope both our projects can collaborate on this and other articles in the future. Peace. - Mtmelendez ^{(Talk|UB|Home)} 22:51, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

True salsa does have plenty of jazz, son and some poplike sounds and many other variations, the song, "el cantante" for example, is a true salsa. If you remove the son, your left with jazz and a form of pop, when you also remove the jazz your left with a latin style form of poplike sound. Thats what makes it salsa & thats what makes it dificult to define salsa, its not only the fact that you have multiple rythyms but these rythyms are an adulturation of the true genre's. Son in salsa is not always played as traditionally played, it sounds like the son player is playing it R&B style or attitude. The jazz section in salsa is also an adulteration of latin jazz or american jazz, with more of an aggresive approach. The poplike sound left when you remove son and jazz is another deviation, acting like the glue that binds son and jazz successfully. Another problem is that much latin music that falls under the category of salsa actually is not at all salsa and that also contributes to the confusion. There are montunos, guarachas, plenas, sones, bombas, guaguacos, etc. that are considered salsa when their acually their own genre. What makes things even more confusing is that most plenas and bombas have son or a form of son in the background or a form of bass thats also confused with son and at times with sies tumbao, like Cortijo's "Maquinolandera". Lavoe's song, "Che che cole" considered a salsa, is a merengue-son with no jazz no plena but at times approaches bomba. Gran Combo's, "Eliminacion de los Feos", sounds like a pure son yet its constantly being touched with variations of seis. Even when the rythyms are purely cuban or boricua they sound different enough to fall under the category of salsa. If you listen to a modern plena or bamba, like those of plena libre, it sounds like salsa and not the traditional genre. Perhaps the lack of un-bias latin music historians has lead to this great debate. A panel of these experts should determine what-is-what when it comes to our music. In the end salsa, true salsa, has afro-caribbean parents but the birthplace of New York, every other latin genre has its own homeland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.146.32.250 (talk) 23:58, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

inaccuracies abound in this entry

Overall, this entry is a disaster. Here is a casual list of the inaccurate idiotic things written here.

Salsa is essentially Cuban in stylistic origin,[3] though it is also a hybrid of Puerto Rican and other Latin styles mixed with pop, jazz, rock, and R&B.

A typical salsa song does not have pop, jazz or R&B in it. Structurally, it approximates son or guaracha, two dance genres that are Cuban in origin. At certain points there have been influences of pop and jazz in terms of harmony, there is little in common between "Confirmation" and "Cuenta conmigo" by Jerry Rivera, for example.

Morales also mentions an early use of the term by Dominican performer and producer Johnny Pacheco, after he released a 1962 album called Salsa Na' Ma, which Morales translates as "it just needs a little salsa, or spice".[13]

If Morales said this, he is a moron. Salsa Na' Ma was recorded by Charlie Palmieri and the Duboney orchestra in 1966 or so. Johnny Pacheco played flute in La Duboney and recorded on Duboney's first album, called Charanga! Pacheco later formed his own charanga band and his releases from 1962 to 1965 were all charanga-style. Charanga is a style of band with uses typical percussion like conga and timbales but generally not bongo. Instead of horns, it uses violins and cellos and a 5-key wooden flute. It was highly popular in New York due to bands like Orquesta Aragon and Jose Fajardo in particular, not to mention Gilberto Valdes. Pacheco never recorded a tune called Salsa Na' Ma.

This link shows the album from Palmieri that I mean: http://shopping.yahoo.com/p:Salsa%20Na'%20Ma':1921386492:page=user-reviews

Piano patterns in salsa are called montunos, not montuños. Piano is not "free to improvise" in salsa. General parts are written for the beginning of the song, called the cuerpo, followed by the montuno, a repeated pattern played as an underpinning. Piano players do take solos and that's when they improvise, not while a song is playing, willy nilly, as implied. Bongo players actually get to improvise more before they start playing the bell, since they play not only a basic pattern called martillo and also improvise riffs.

This entry also says: Politically and socially activist composers have long been an important part of salsa, and some of their works, like Eddie Palmieri's "La libertad - lógico", became Latin and especially Puerto Rican anthems.

This is simply not true. La Libertad Lógico is an exception, not the rule. Most salsa songs from the 1960s and 1970s were about dancing and occasionally touched on social issues but this was not the defining characteristic. Some radical Latinos embraced salsa at that time and recall it as being some kind of social force but this does not jibe with the songs released back then. Juana Peña has no social message. Neither does Che che cole or Guarare or many, many other songs from the era.

The entry says: Salsa's roots can be traced back to the African ancestors that were brought to the Caribbean by the Spanish as slaves. In Africa it is very common to find people playing music with instruments like the conga and la pandereta, instruments commonly used in salsa.

The pandereta is used in PLENA, not in salsa. PLENA is a genre from Puerto Rico that has been played by salsa bands on occasion but since the 1980s has almost never been played. Marc Anthony, Victor Manuelle and others rarely if ever play this folkloric Puerto Rican genre and thus do not have pandereta players in their bands.

A small point, yet significant because it reveals how little the authors or authors know about this music.

The entry says: Large son bands were very popular in Cuba beginning in the 1930s; these were largely septetos and sextetos, and they quickly spread to the United States

In the 1940s Cuban dance bands grew much larger, becoming mambo and charanga orchestras led by bandleaders like Arsenio Rodriguez and Felix Chappotin.

First of all, how can a large son band be a septet or a sextet? By definition those are smaller groups. In addition, son sextets and septets began in the 1920s, not the 1930s. What came along in Cuba in the 1930s were larger bands called jazzbands that played some Cuban music but also American jazz, Cubanized a bit. An example would be Casino de la Playa. There is little documentation that septets and sextets that played son spread to the U.S., this is more of a Cuban phenomenon, although Puerto Rican bands did exist in this era that played Cuban genres like son along with Puerto Rican genres like plena.

Arsenio and Chappotin did NOT lead mambo or charanga orchestras. Arsenio had a conjunto that played son, guaracha, bolero and added elements of guaguanco in terms of some melodic devices and patterns. When he left for the U.S. Chappotin took over the conjunto and in fact kept it going from the 1940s until his death in the 1980s.

This entry says: In New York City in the '40s, at the center for mambo in the United States, the Palladium Dancehall, and in Mexico City, where a burgeoning film industry attracted Latin musicians, Cuban-style big bands were formed by Cubans and Puerto Ricans like Machito, Perez Prado, Tito Puente and Tito Rodriguez.[31]

The Palladium opened in the 1950s not the 1940s and while Perez Prado was based in Mexico City, Puente, Machito and Rodriguez were in New York and anyone who says different really should not be writing about this music.

This entry says:

Founded by Dominican flautist and band-leader Johnny Pacheco and impresario Jerry Masucci, Fania's illustrious career began with Willie Colón and Héctor Lavoe's El Malo in 1967.

No it did not. Fania's early releases were in 1965, first of which was Pacheco's abums like Cañonazo and Latin Jam. It is correct that Willie Colon and Hector Lavoe came out with El Malo in 1967.

Entry says: Popular performers like Eddie Palmieri and Celia Cruz adapted to the salsa format, joined by more authentically traditional singers like Willie Colón and Rubén Blades.

What? Ruben Blades was always a modern-style performer, not traditional, whereas Celia Cruz forgot more traditional music than Ruben, Eddie and Willie knew and you can ask all three of them and they would tell you the same thing. Eddie Palmieri did not adapt the salsa format. He had been playing his own interpretation of Cuban and Puerto Rican music since the early 1960s and was successful using 2 trombones in his horn section along with a flute. This band was called La Perfecta. By the 1970s he was still playing his own take on Cuban and PR music, just with a different sound that incorporated trumpets and saxes. Willie Colon is not a bad singer but not a traditional one by any means.

Entry says: From New York, salsa quickly expanded to Cuba, Puerto Rico, the Dominican Republic, Colombia, Mexico, Venezuela, and other Latin countries, while the new style became a symbol of "pride and cultural identity" for Latinos, especially Puerto Ricans.

Cubans find this sentence laughable since they generally see salsa as their own music so how could salsa "expand" to there?

Entry says: This was followed by a series of updated son montuno and plena tunes that evolved into modern salsa by 1973.

This sentence is stupid. Salsa bands hardly every played plenas. Mon Rivera and Willie Colon played them more than most, while finding a bomba or plena played by El Gran Combo is a feat indeed. Look, salsa did not somehow form by 1973. It is the evolution of Cuban music as interpreted by Cuban and Puerto Rican musicians based in New York and Puerto Rico from the 1930s up to the present day, ocasionally incorporating other genres in selected tunes but mostly depending on Cuban dance genres like son, guaracha, chachacha and son montuno. Salsa does not sound exactly like Cuban music as played by Cubans on the island. The tempo is faster and the approach to harmony and the interpretation of rhythms differs from Cuban bands on the island. Certain patterns are favored not used as much in Cuba; these small differences make for a different sound but not a separate genre per se.

Entry says: In the 1990s Cuban salsa became more prominent, especially a distinct subgenre called timba. Using the complex songo rhythm, bands like NG La Banda, Charanga Habanera, and Los Van Van developed timba, along with related styles like songo-salsa, which featured swift Spanish rapping.

NG la Banda does not play songo, neither did Charanga Habanera, not really. Maybe elements crept in but Van Van is who truly originated and played songo, and that was more in the 1980s than later.

Entry says: Salsa romántica can be traced back to Noches Calientes, a 1984 album by singer José Alberto with producer Louie Ramirez.

It came out in 1982 and it was called Noche Caliente, singular, on K-Tel records and it was Louie Ramirez and Ray de la Paz, not Jose Alberto.

Entry says: producer and pianist Sergio George helped to revive salsa's commercial success. He created a sound based on prominent trombones and rootsy, mambo-inspired style.

Huh? Has this person EVER heard Sergio George's productions. Sergio George was into synth intros and produced albums in which salsa singers covered pop and R and B tunes, then later more R and B influenced music with DLG. His music was never rootsy as a producer. Whoever wrote the above is badly misinformed.

Entry says The Fania team released a string of successful singles, mostly son and plena, performing live after forming the Fania All Stars in 1971

The Fania All Stars NEVER recorded a plena. Period. If they did, name the album. I have most of them and have yet to hear them record a plena.

This is a quick select of errors but overall the entry is disastrously bad and should be erased and rewritten by someone who actually knows about salsa music. The authors who contributed to this disastrous entry should not write about this music until they actually learn something about it. And you won't learn by reading Ed Morales. Read Charley Gerard's book and the Ned Sublette book. Read Latin beat, Maz Salazar and listen to the music from the era. If not, no point to writing about it.

Son to salsa has a parallel with jazz to swing in developement, salsa is a derivitive of son but "a distinctive style","strong rhythm section", "tempo",'modification of band arrangement',etc.:

"Swing music, also known as swing jazz, is a form of jazz music that developed during the 1920s and had solidified as a distinctive style by 1935 in the United States. Swing is distinguished primarily by a strong rhythm section, usually including double bass and drums, medium to fast tempo, and the distinctive swing time rhythm that is common to many forms of jazz." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swing_music —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.132.206.240 (talk) 15:41, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Metancala (talk • contribs) 02:06, August 22, 2007 (UTC).

TIMBA

Ohh my lord, who put down that timba is a Derivative of salsa? If you claim this correct then you know nothing of timba, go back to the 60's-70's of contemporary music of cuba. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.203.55.166 (talk) 23:11, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:LosVanVanSalsaCubana.ogg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 17:34, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:TitoPuenteAyMiCuba.ogg

Image:TitoPuenteAyMiCuba.ogg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 02:20, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:CeliaCruzQuimbara.ogg

Image:CeliaCruzQuimbara.ogg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 20:07, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

New York

I am from New York. I was born right around the time that salsa is traditionally supposed to have been born in New York...the 1960s. What I know, having lived my whole live in (my family was active with Fania), around, and through the music is this: Salsa is from here...from New York. It's roots are Cuban (son, son montuno, guaracha, guaguanco, etc.). The main architects of Salsa have been Puerto Rican, Dominican, and, of course, Cuban. It is a Caribbean music derived by and for the Caribbean community in New York. It has gone international and spread outside of its home base in NYC to other parts of the world, including to the land of its original roots, Cuba. While Caribbean New Yorkers who were here back in the 1960s are proud that our music has garnered such wide acceptance, we are a bit miffed that so many want to distort its origins to lay some kind of claim on the music. No, Cali is NOT "la ciudad de la salsa". That title rightfully and ONLY belongs to New York City. Yes, there have been periodic salsa blends with merengue (more commonly), but also with other Afro-Caribbean based rythms. These are still properly called salsa also. The soul of the music is its ability to fuse external influences because as a community from separate but closely related islands, WE had to fuse here into one Afro-Caribbean community. I was taught that salsa belongs to a family of related rhythms that includes merengue, bomba, cumbia, soca, and many other African-derived music usually termed "Afro-Caribbean" for lack of a better term.

These are the things I was taught. And these things were taught to me by the people who were developing the sound at the time.

Recently, while on a trip to Spain, I heard a fusion of salsa and gypsy calo music in Cordoba. I was floored. The fusion not only works, but it was mesmerizing. I hope and pray it wasn't a one-time thing. I look forward to not only hearing more of it, but to dancing to it.

Ache to all of you and keep dancing on three! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.202.185.170 (talk) 23:33, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with BetacommandBot. Salsa was born in New York City, based on my own extensive research on the subject most world music historians have concluded this. Even Musicians that were part of that music history sometimes fail to see the contributions others have made to this music or limit themselves to nationalistic ignorance. I myself once thought salsa was from Puerto Rico, because thats where I was from and was very much played. Plus most of the salsa musicains were Puerto Rican. But when you see outside your little world and with an open \ realistic mind you see salsa has son, guaguanco, mambo, traditional merengue, sies tumbao, jazz, more tempo, saxos replaced by trombones, montuno section is played with a R&B flavor, forms or plena, bomba, samba, I can go on and on. All these elements ONLY existed in New York City. Not Cuba, Not Puerto Rico. Therefore it was impossible for Salsa to have been born in Cuba or Puerto Rico. No matter how many others believe otherwise or laugh at these facts, I can't dance salsa to old Cuban music or Puerto Rican music. Try playing Benny More at the next party and see how many people will dance or Cortijo 50's music. YOU CAN"T dance salsa to these old tunes because they were slow tempo guarachas, Sones, Bombas, Plenas, etc. But you CAN dance to New York City based uptempo, jazzy, R&B style latin-caribbean music. This CANNOT be denied. Listen to 50's Elvis Presley and 70's Led Zeppelin, thats a hell of a difference. The same rules apply to SALSA!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.223.236.173 (talk) 01:56, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

One gross blunder in this "Salsa Article" is the fact that Richie Ray and Bobby Cruz are not mentioned at all. This shows the lack of knowlegde of the writers. It does mention the Venezuelan DJ that firsts uses the name Salsa as a music genre but it fails to mention who this DJ recieved this name and music from. When Richie Ray and Bobby Cruz were interviewed by this Venezuelan DJ, Fidios asked them what Richie and Bobby called this new blend and sound of latin music. That's when they said 'its like ketchup or "salsa", a mixture of many other genres of music'. Then the Fidios responded, "Your music is called salsa. From now on we will call this music Salsa". http://www.bobbycruz.com/bobbycruz_biografia.asp

These are the major errors and blunders in historic details that fail to show the truth about salsa and its origins and evolution. Even though the word had been used in the past in latin music it was never used as the name of a new music genre. It was always used as describing tempo or flavor to the music but not as a genre. Richie Ray and Bobby Cruz were a major turning point for latin music, then Colon and Lavoe were another major turning point just a few years after, then Fania made salsa world popular. But the addition of jazz and classical music Richie Ray and Bobby Cruz made in the early 60's was thr origin of salsa as we know it today. They were called the "Kings of Salsa" back then and the only musicians to literally save latin music from the Rock N Roll \ British Invasion simulation era. Thanks to Colon, Lavoe and Fania, it took off to influence Cuba, Puerto Rico and the world. ALL FROM NEW YORK CITY. PLEASE CORRECT THIS HUGE BLUNDER! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Salsaking (talk • contribs) 03:06, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Is from CUBA!!!!

• salsa not is from USA,
• Salsa is 100% from Cuba
• wikipedia in English is so IGNORANTS! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Albertrocker (talk • contribs) 06:47, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your intelligent and eloquent contribution. I am sure your explanation will provide insight into the origins of the music.--99.132.133.69 (talk) 02:46, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

wikapedia

this is a load of crap —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.13.153.178 (talk) 12:22, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

fun

salsa origanally from russia the music is so hard to find out about it ive declared this site is a load of crap —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.13.153.178 (talk) 12:24, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Editing about Cuban or Puerto Rican origin ad nauseum

I have found too many repeated instances of persons exhibiting what appear to be a radical desire to re-write the history of salsa. Any serious musician who knows anything about the history of all genres of Caribbean music knows that salsa is almost purely Cuban in origin. The tempo, riffs, baseline, montuno, rythym, use of congas (which are from Cuba), clave (from Cuba), bongos (from Cuba), timbales (from Europe, modified in Cuba) and a host of other instances would to the even uneducated non-musician serve to put you on notice of the origin. This debate has loooooooong been over; for those claiming it is from Puerto Rico, it is just an exercise in radical nationalism or merely an inferiority complex.

As an analogy, there are rock groups from Spain playing some of the most excellent rock I've heard, and some have been around since rock really got popular worldwide. Rock is from the USA, not Spain. We can all sit around and pretend that because of its popularity in Spain and time there, that it is Spanish, but it is not. Or we could say that because a Spanish artist throws a soulful flamenco flair into his rock song, it is now "Of Spanish origin." That is not a sincere or truthful assessment of the origin of the music. Rock is American in stylistic origin. It is originally American music. Salsa is Cuban in stylistic origin, and has benefitted from many talented Puerto Ricans and New Yorkers playing it and adding their interpretations. However, it is essentially Cuban in every regard. Hector Lavoe adding a LeiLoLai to a song does not obscure the Cuban origin or now make it Puerto Rican in origin, anymore than me adding a Spanish word to a rock song make it Spanish in origin. It is so unimpressive to see so many gringo children of boricuas going gung-ho and trying to claim something they enjoy as "their own" and going so far as to falsify its origins as Puerto Rican, and going a step further by saying it comes from the totally unrelated folk music Plena. I say that because most older generation boricua (islanders) who grew hearing early Pacheco, the Palmieri brothers, Beny More, and the innumerable Cuban Son, Charanga, and Guaracha groups playing on the radios in PR in the 40s, 50s and 60s readily admit it is Cuban in origin.

In sum, let's stop the charade about this being Puerto Rican music. This is an encyclopedia made for fact, not historical revisionism. Salsa is for everyone to enjoy, and one didn't have to invent it to be proud of one's people's contributions to the genre. --99.132.133.69 (talk) 02:44, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

No one can fully say Salsa is Puerto Rican or Cuban. New York is the turning point of Cuban music MAINLY in the hands of Puerto Ricans. That does not make it Puerto Rican yet it stopped being Cuban, and heres why. If you play a "salsa" from Cuba from the 50's at any party you will be kicked out with your 8-track, same with Puerto Rican "salsa" from the 50's. This new, fresh, uptempo Cuban Montuno-Guaracha mixed with Jazz & traditional Puerto Rican music creates a new hybrid music in NEW YORK. Even the Montuno section in real salsa has many Rythm and Blues variations that belong to NEW YORK. The replacement of Saxaphones with Trombones also changed the sound. Modernized intrumentation also changed this latin sound. All done in NEW YORK. If this had NOT ocurred in New York from 1959 onward we would still be remembring Benny More, Sonora Matancera and Cortijo y Su Combo for those oldies DEAD tunes. Look at how much Rock n Roll from the 50's changed to Rock, British Rock, Hard Rock, Heavey Metal, Alternative Rock, Pop, etc. Rock N Roll started from Rockabilly and Rytm and Blues a hybrid mixture. Two fusions, etc. Salsa is also a fusion of many Cuban, Puerto Rican and American music. IF you look even further back Cuban Son was actually born in Santo Domingo brought to Santiago de Cuba in 1580 by Teodora y Micaela Ginés. Yes son, the main ingredient for Salsa, Danzon, Montuno and Mambo. So lets be careful with the term, "MAINLY Cuban music" or "purely Cuban" . History is more complex than thought before. Even Danzon thats a parent to Mambo originates from European Contra-Danze. Just like Puerto Rican music has origins from others regions of the world and Dominican, ect. Most music historians realize Salsa as a New York sound from caribbean stylistic origins and sounds. BUT BORN IN NEW YORK What makes a cuban sandwhich? Bread, hams, cheese, pork, pickles, mustard. ALL NON-CUBAN INGREDIENTS. What makes it Cuban then? That particular mix makes it Cuban, because Cubans MADE that mixture, although ALL those ingredients are "purely European-asian" ingredients. Salsa has the pattern of creation as all other music. When Son became montuno, no one complained, when Dazon beacme Mambo, no one complained, when Jazz was played in big band format and became Swing, few did complain but noticed that Swing was a descendent of Jazz, NOT jazz itself. Lets do the same for Salsa. Lets not fight over the natural evolution of music and New York was historically the place it was born and became World famous. Viva la salsa ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.153.141.38 (talk) 02:23, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Your analysis is about as credible as claiming that Rock is British just because many Brits contributed to the genre. Rock is American in both rythym and stylistic origin and instrumentation. The Brits added much, just like Nuyoricans to Cuban music, but its ORIGIN is American, as salsa's origin is Cuban. Using your ridiculous analysis, Salsa isn't even Cuban in origin because all of the rythyms ultimately go back to Africa, Europe, etc. Sure, and I guess I could also absurdly say that niether Bomba nor Plena are Puerto Rican because they ultimately rely on European instruments or African melodies. Oh yeah, and I guess Spanish Flamenco isn't really Spanish because 500 years before it used Arab guitar playing. Point: Salsa and its antecedents are Cuban in instrumentation, stylistic origin, rythym, baseline, montuno, melody, and a host of other examples. Talented Nuyoricans enjoyed it and added their touch, just like the Brits did with American music, otherwise known as Rock. But to claim that the Nuyoricans were playing something that was not Cuban in origin, when they were merely playing something Cubans had played forever but with their own touch (each artist contributed differently), is disingenuous and unencyclopedic.

No one is denying that touches of jazz, plena, cumbia, etc. have been experimented with and added much to salsa and myriad salsa songs; we are saying that the base on which it was built is almost exclusively Cuban. No one is saying that Nuyoricans didn't take a good thing and make it better. BTW, I think you need to read abit on the parallel story of timba in Cuba...we would not still be listening to Beny More etc. from the 50s at a party, as you state, without the Nuyoricans. SALSA was not "salsa" in Cuba in the 50s; it didn't exist in its modern form. Timba, or Cuban salsa, developed all on its own in Havana during the 60s and 70s, without the benefit of Nuyorican musicians. So maybe at your New Yorker family's parties they might be still playing the old stuff, but in Havana they would be playing modern salsa. And despite some arrogant Cubans' nationalistic tendencies to say timba is intrinsically different or better than other types of salsa, it is salsa nonetheless. The word salsa is just a name to describe upbeat, faster modern styles of music that came from Cuba. If adding jazz modernizes, cool. If adding a Ay Bendito in the middle of the song makes it more interesting, excellent. The base is Cuban, and that is really the point in in an encyclopedia, to inform, not re-write history and give greater import to Puerto Rican music. In closing, a Puerto Rican playing Cuban does not make it any more boricua in origin than a Brit playing rock. Modify, yes, but the origin stays the same.--75.3.115.65 (talk) 01:31, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Can't we all just get along? Like Jose Martí said, Cuba and Puerto Rico are two wings of the same bird. I agree that in stylistic origin Salsa is Cuban, however what we think of as as Salsa today was created mostly by Puerto Rican musicians. Therefore I think Salsa can be considered both Cuban AND Puerto Rican. Oh and just so you know, I am familiar with some Puerto Rican scholars who would claim the congas, timables, and bongo were invented in Puerto Rico. Let's not look at things in a vacuum, Cuba and Puerto Rico were the last held colonies of Spain in the New World and to think there wasn't MUCH cultural interaction going on between the two is ridiculous. The cuatro and aguinaldo and jibaro rhythyms are definitely Puerto Rican, not Cuban, that influence is there and it can't be denied. Just like the influence of trova is there, but trova was and is a music form practiced by Cubans AND Puerto Ricans. So, I think we should all get along like Martí and Betances did and respect Salsa for what it is, an Antillean music form created by both Cuba and Puerto Rico. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.83.222.231 (talk) 12:52, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

the intro says salsa was created in NYC, is this correct? (it says "developed" which is synonymous) from reading the article's body text and discussion above, it sounds more like the various forms of salsa originated in Cuba and Puerto Rico, with some dispute. then it was popularized in NYC as an umbrella term, since it includes different styles under other names. especially when considering the notable Cuban musicians who are so closely associated with it. PrBeacon (talk) 01:21, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Translation of Salsa Na' ma

Well, I think, because amb from Catalonia and I can speak spanish fluently, that Salsa Na'ma should be translated as Just salsa, better than "needs more salsa" or this stuff. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.58.179.202 (talk) 00:14, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Talk Page Too Long, Set Up Auto Archiving?

This discussion page has gotten way too big, we should begin archiving older discussions. For instructions on how to do this, visit Help:Archiving a talk page.

I would like to set up automatic archiving of this discussion page. Information about automatic archiving can be found at Wikipedia:ARCHIVE#Automated_archival and Wikipedia:ARCHIVE#Automatic_archive_box. Is there anyone who disagrees with this? Cold Salsero (talk) 04:23, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Sounds good. I see you've already set this [1] (also, I saw your note [2] on the helpdesk). I've tidied up a bit. Cheers,  Chzz  ►  04:17, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Claim That Trombone Is a Defining Characteristic of Salsa

I marked this claim as needing citation. You can see that claim made in the picture subtitle for the trombone in the Characteristics section.

I've never heard this stated before; instead, I'm always reading and hearing about how the clave is a defining characteristic of salsa, and in my experience, the tumbao pattern in the congas also set salsa apart from Son, which is another Afro-Cuban music genre with clave, but doesn't have conga tumbao, and so doesn't sound and feel the same as salsa.

--Rumba y Son (talk) 08:49, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

The tumbao pattern in the congas is not in ancient Son but is in Son Montuno and Mambo. All these styles are called "Salsa" by non Cuban speakers. From this point of view is clave pattern the common thing in all styles called "Salsa" (guaracha, son, son montuno, mambo, chachacha, etc.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.124.137.20 (talk) 22:15, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

So I checked the archives, and apparently I'm not the only person to have challenged the claim that the trombone is "a defining characteristic of salsa". Unless anyone objects, I'll the claim and the picture and replace it with something that is indeed always an important part of salsa music, the conga drums.

--Rumba y Son (talk) 06:06, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

En los momentos en que se era salsero o antisalsero, es decir, cuando dejó de emplearse la razón, el maestro Armando Romeu ilustró en varias charlas -o clases magistrales- las principales diferencias, al menos entonces (años 70) entre la Salsa y la música que se ejecutaba entre nosotros; y con una simple ecuación de primer grado explicaba la diferencia en los planos tímbrico y orquestal; allá (en Nueva York) habían cambiado y modernizado las secciones de vientos, manteniendo el ritmo tradicional; aquí se había hecho todo lo contrario, introduciendo la electrónica en el bajo y los teclados. Veinte años más tarde, diríamos que en líneas generales hay diferencias en: la manera de tocar y combinar los instrumentos de percusión; los montunos del piano; los bajos; los arreglos y formatos orquestales; las voces (inflexiones vocales, improvisaciones y estribillos); los movimientos escénicos, y los textos cantados.

Es un hecho conocido que los salseros en sus textos reflejan la vida cotidiana y la lucha social de la minoría hispanoparlante más o menos marginada en Nueva York y otras grandes ciudades de Estados Unidos y el Caribe. Y el hecho de que haya características propias de los textos de un género o estilo de música popular es importante, como lo demuestran la guaracha, el guaguancó, el tango, la ranchera, los blues, el bolero, y más recientemente la nueva trova.

Please write your comments in English. Since this is an English Wikipedia article, you should expect your audience to only understand English, not Spanish. Sorry. --Rumba y Son (talk) 00:46, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

FAR concerns

As of what it is now, I plan on bringing Salsa music to FAR. However, I have to list concerns on the talk page first. In the lead, the article is tagged with a {{Original research}} tag. Also, I see unreferenced sections in the article, as well as a large amount of Red link all over the page. If anyone is interested in fixing up the article, please let me know if you want to as I will not watchlist this page. GamerPro64 (talk) 21:47, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

What is FAR? Cold Salsero (talk) 04:25, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

WP:Featured article review. Regards, mabdul 17:41, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Not enough credit given to Nuyoricans

Salsa was born in New York City, with obvious influence from Cuba, Puerto Rico and African American music. Whoever wrote this wiki salsa article is VERY bias and contradicts himself in the interpretation of salsa music history. I CHALLENEGE HIS IGNORANCE!!! Solo se cita convenientemente a los musicos que apoyan que la salsa es cubana cuando otros musicos han opinado diferente ... el articulo tiene que citar toda opinion de todo musico de la salsa para que no sea BIAS.

Mira unos simples ejemplos ... citando al Cubano Leonardo Acosta ...

"En cuanto a parámetros exclusivamente musicales, hemos señalado los arreglos y formatos orquestales, con la preeminencia del trombón entre los vientos, lo cual proviene de una tradición boricua que pasa directamente de Mon Rivera a Willie Colón y se impone hoy en Cuba. Otro ejemplo sería el del contrabajo, que en Nueva York y el mundo salsero sigue la línea establecida por Cachao, Julio Andino y Bobby Rodríguez, mientras en Cuba se impuso el bajo-guitarra. Andy González lamenta con razón este cambio, con el cual se pierde la profundidad y el swing que proporciona el contrabajo acústico a la sección rítmica afrocubana (y al jazz). Andy, quien ha visitado Cuba, atribuye esa pérdida al hecho de que en la isla no entró el 'baby bajo' –sólo producido por la Ampeg en USA-, que posee las ventajas de la amplificación electrónica sin perder la calidad del sonido del contrabajo (Larry Birnbaum, 1992). En cuanto a los cantantes, al escuchar a ciertos salseros resulta evidente lo que deben a los pleneros y demás tradiciones vocales del Caribe. Por este camino y mediante el análisis de una discografía bien seleccionada, podríamos llegar a enumerar una serie de aportes de esta música a la tradición afrocubana y afroantillana. Baste ahora señalar que gracias a la 'actualización' o 'reinterpretación' de nuestra música por los 'neoyorricans' y otros caribeños, ésta siguió difundiéndose por el mundo durante tres décadas de aislamiento de la música cubana." Herencia Latina (http://www.herencialatina.com/Leonardo_Acosta/Termino_La_Polemica_Sobre_La%20_Salsa.htm)

"El historiador cubano Alejo Carpentier diría, que el Son vino a ser cubano, no por su origen, sino por su forma de interpretación. Igual ocurrió con la Salsa, que vino a ser puertorriqueña, no por su lugar de origen sino por su forma de interpretación." [ver más] Héctor A. García, Investigador e historiador puertorriqueño

El son tiene origen en La Isla Hispaniola ... Hermanas Gines, Manfugas, etc ... la llevaron a Cuba, PERO es Cubana por lo que dijo Carpentier.

Respuesta de Gloria Estefan: "...Cuando pienso en la música cubana, yo no pienso en 'La Salsa'. Pienso en la Rumba, Son Montuno y cosas así. Pienso que la verdadera Salsa, cuando se habla de sus sonidos y lo que la gente llama Salsa, es de Puerto Rico." Gloria Estefan - San Juan Star, entrevista de octubre 15,1995

"La música cubana es música cubana, la salsa es otra cosa". Israel López Cachao, músico cubano

"La salsa es un producto cultural para estúpidos”, dijo Dámaso Pérez Prado

"A Jerry Masucci (creador junto a Johnny Pacheco de la Fania) hay que darle el crédito por el éxito que obtuvo esta música, eso es innegable. Sin embargo en el otro lado de la ecuación, lo cierto es que su compañía (Masucci-Pacheco) se quedaba con casi la totalidad de los beneficios creados por estos artistas musicales. Esta situación le quita meritos a su gestión por no haber sido justo con los que crearon esta música." Rubén Blades, entrevistado por George Rivera

Y hay mucho mas .... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ninabeba (talk • contribs) 15:48, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

This article has been edited by many users, not a single author: if you look at the revision history statistics, it has had 907 users (so far) who have edited it since it was created in 2002, and that's not counting people who have not signed up for usernames (ip addresses). The article also cites a number of sources, some (if not all) of which are strong, credible academic sources, such as Hutchinson, Sydney (2004). "Mambo On 2: The Birth of a New Form of Dance in New York City" (PDF). CENTRO Journal. 16 (2): 109–137. Retrieved 12 August 2011., which was published in 2004 and comes from CENTRO Journal, from the Center for Puerto Rican Studies of Hunter College at The City University of New York. If you would like to change anything, I suggest that you make sure that what you change is not your own original research, and that it can be backed up by citations from credible sources that other people can verify.

Finally, I do not intend to sound mean or disrespectful, but since this is an English Wikipedia article, I think it would be productive for discussion if you wrote your comments in English and not Spanish. I for one do not understand a lot of Spanish, so I cannot understand most of what you wrote.

--Rumba y Son (talk) 00:44, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

If you barely understand spanish then you should not write or contribute to the subject since most of the history on Salsa has been written in spanish. It would be like a Mexican that barely knows English and writes on the history of Rock. I have seen this site for years and it gets worst everytime and loaded with contradictions. Example: "From New York salsa quickly expanded back to Puerto Rico, the Dominican Republic, Colombia, Mexico, Venezuela, and other Latin countries (except Cuba due to the Cuban Embargo)". How can something go back to a place it never came from? Or why would it go back to Cuba if its "Cuban" to begin with? Just the mention of it "from New York" its a clear admition that this style is ... well, "from New York". When did rock and roll go back to USA? All the spanish posts I put are of major artists, mainly Cubans, that don't consider Salsa Cuban music. Everyone knows it developed in New York, with obvious Cuban and Puerto Rican influence. But just like Rock and Roll has its influence from R&B and Rockabilly, you cant say its black music or white music when its a fusion of older styles of american music from two diferent "american" races. Is Rock and roll the same as british rock? Is it the same as heavy metal or punk rock or alternative? One came from the other, but its not the same. Why all these names and descriptions of rock? Because although they had common ancestors they are unique to places, eras and sound. Salsa has that evolution. Salsa essentially refers to cuban\puertorican fusion developed in New York City in the 60's and 70's. Anything else is a contradiction or simply a lie. Swing Music? Is it Jazz or not? Yes and no. Its Jazz essentials but played in Big Bang format with addition of obvious intruments and style. One came from the other, but you cant say tis the same thing. If a veteran wants to here Swing, are you going to put Jazz? Or if he wants to here Jazz, are you going to put Swing? Its simply not the same. This Salsa article sucks big time and contradicts itself to much. Originally it had a Guaracha picture years ago representing a Salsa band. When I mentioned it someone put an actual picture of a Salsa band ... but every other year that I go back to this site it gets worst in actual history versus many opinions and only a fraction of opinions are mentioned, NOT THE FULL STORY. Opinions are important but not factual. There are Germans that deny the holocaust. This article needs to be consistent and started from scratch giving credit where its due and at the appropiate level. :: — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ninabeba (talk • contribs) 02:58, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

I'll agree that the quality of this article tends to get worse over time, but that's because lots of people make lots of changes to it (often poorly written ones), and the changes are often just what you complain about, opinions, not facts backed up by verifiable sources. If you would like to improve the quality of the article, I hope that you remain un-biased and give all the differing perspectives on the history of salsa music (from reputable sources) fair and equal weight, and that you cite sources that anyone can verify online or by checking out a book from a library.

Also, I don't know what the Wikipedia policy is on this, but if you use Spanish sources as reference, it would be nice to have both the quote that you are referencing in both Spanish and its English translation please.

--Rumba y Son (talk) 04:04, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Article cleanup, and original research

Twice [3][4] I have restored the templates at the top of the page, ones that call attention to the need to clean up the article and warn the reader against original research. The templates are still applicable!

Cleanup: The article is a mess with regard to Wikipedia style; it bounces around from this aspect to that aspect without giving a smooth history of the topic, without telling a clear story of the early development and of the modern practice of salsa music.

Original research: per WP:NOR, this article should be the summary of our best published sources. It should not contain personal ideas or experiences. Unfortunately, it has been added to and expanded by a number of editors who do not cite any source at all, with facts that appear to be at odds with published sources. For instance:

• 68.67.247.5 – This set of changes by an IP editor make important changes without referring to a source.
• 174.98.138.223 – This set of changes by an IP editor repeats the problem.
• 174.98.138.223 – This set of changes by an IP editor continues with the same problems except a youtube link is cited, a deprecated link that was automatically removed by a bot. Worse, a direct quote from Ed Morales is modified! This cannot be allowed. Binksternet (talk) 15:28, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

In addition to politics and religion, perhaps polite company should not discuss salsa.  :) This is a very charged subject. I've been aware of the chaotic nature of this WP article for awhile. At some some point, I intend to see if I can improve it. I can't really take it on at this time though.

Salsa music is basically Cuban popular music from outside of Cuba. Even salsa with say, Puerto Rican rhythms, or other non-Cuban elements, have grafted those elements onto what is essentially a Cuban scaffolding. That said, I don't think that the Salsa article should be an article about the original Cuban genres. Son, son montuno, ect. each have their own articles. The coining of the term salsa was initially motivated by politics and economics, but that's not the end of the story. It developed into a powerful form of cultural expression in NYC, PR, Columbia, Venezuela, etc. I have a video series where informants from each of those locals claim their people "created salsa." These conflicting opinions ought to be presented in as neutral a fashion as possible. One helpful approach might be to juxtapose opposed opinions, like Author A states: ". . ." However, author B disagrees, stating: " . . . " I don't see how the story of salsa music can be told without addressing the age old arguments which have plagued the topic from the beginning.

Considering the problems with this article, personal ideas or experiences should be removed, with strict adherence to the referencing of information. If the information cannot be backed up by published sources, that ought to be legitimate reason to delete it.Dr clave (talk) 00:36, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Disputed facts

The facts in this article have been chosen to heighten the importance of the Cuban roots of salsa music rather than the multi-culturalism that spawned it in New York. I see that the part of Puerto Rican musicians is trivialized in changes made by the IP editor. This pushing of a certain POV has made the article less accurate and less neutral. Because of this, I have placed a tag over the top of the article saying that the content is disputed. Binksternet (talk) 03:56, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

I will make attempt to clean up this article this week. I have sufficient documentation in my library to support what I write. I'll try to balance the competing theories and claims of the music's ownership.Dr clave (talk) 16:12, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

major re-write of two sections

Here are three more section re-writes: Lyrics, Music Structure, and Instrumentation. Feedback welcome.Dr clave (talk) 01:51, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

I have been keeping half an eye on your work here but I have not had the concentrated time that it takes to carefully weigh all the changes. One tiny little thing is that the article should only host one photo of Palmieri; two is too much. When I get the proper time away from work I will comment on the changes. April and May are very busy months for me. :/ Binksternet (talk) 04:42, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

OK. Thanks. It's all done. I look forward to your editorial improvements.Dr clave (talk) 16:56, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Pan-Latin-American identity

I am from Ecuador and I hate Salsa, I’ve hated tropical music my whole life. If being Latin American means you have to dance Salsa I don’t even consider myself to be “Latino”. And believe me I am not the only who thinks this way (See: Alberto Fuguet, Leopoldo Tablante Alcalá, Cuarteto de Nos No somos latinos).
Like Mexican film director Alejandro González Iñárritu said in one interview, “In Music, Americans only want Ricky Martin. You have to shake your butt if you are Latin and want to be huge in America. That is not what it is to be Latin American. You don’t see people here shaking their butt. It is Americans (and Europeans) who see us as…folcloric” Magical Neoliberalism.
Gee, it is not even funny anymore. I am going to remove all references that relate Salsa to a pan-Latin-American identity. --Rivet138 (talk) 12:56, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

On page 46 of the Peter Manuel reference, he says that salsa "represents a potential Latino solidarity", that salsa suggests to some people that there can be a unified pan-Latin sound. It's a hopeful definition, not an absolute one.

Frances R. Aparicio and Cándida Frances Jáquez say in Musical Migrations that "The use of these techniques allows the musicians to create a new salsa style that consists of elements of their musical vernacular fused with elements of a more pan-Latin salsa style. This innovation gives them the license to claim salsa as their own because part of their musical vernacular has now become part of the larger salsa style."

Sheenagh Pietrobruno in Salsa And Its Transnational Moves says "The proliferation of salsa in Montreal has helped to forge a transnational Latin identity, one that reflects Benedict Anderson's idea of "imagined communities." Montrealers of diverse Latin backgrounds create a pan-Latin connection..."

Elizabeth Drake-Boyt in Latin Dance says "Founding salsero Willie Colon refers to the international, pan-Latin social dance known as salsa..."

Charley Gerard paraphrases Colon as well in Music from Cuba where he says "Colon skillfully frames his argument that salsa, a pan-Latin sensibility rather than a rhythm, is something new and original, and it is easy to be swayed."

Michael Miller in The Complete Idiot's Guide to Music History says "A more traditional Caribbean music is salsa. While it's now kind of a pan-Latin style, it originated on the island of Cuba, specifically from Cuban immigrants in the New York City area."

Julie A. Sellers wrote in Merengue and Dominican Identity: "Salsa reached its climax in the 1970s and though it has remained a favorite Pan-Latin music..."

Manning Marable and Vanessa Agard-Jones write in Transnational blackness that salsa has "become a Pan-Latin American musical genre connecting music with dance. The salsa movement, while connected to national projects, is also a part of a broader construction of Latin identity or Latinidad."

Vincenzo Perna writes in Timba: the sound of the Cuban crisis that "Salsa is today an internationalized music style for a pan-Latin audience, often produced by pan-Latin bands."

These authors provide a strong counterpoint to your personal impression that salsa cannot be pan-Latin. You would probably agree more with Roy Shuker who wrote in Popular Music: The Key Concepts that "Claims for salsa's expression of a pan-Latin consciousness are similarly based [on song lyrics common to all Latin countries]. Negus shows how the case of Reuben Blades shows the difficulties with any such straightforward correspondences, arguing instead for a more complex process of mediation of the music." Shuker points out that Blades writes socially committed songs that do not speak to all Latinos.

At any rate, I think it is a mistake to try and efface from Wikipedia all mention of salsa and its notional pan-Latin identity. So much has been written about it that it would be wrong to do so. Binksternet (talk) 15:42, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

First of all, I gave you references, so it is more than a personal impression. Second, you cite mostly cases in the Caribbean or migrants from the Caribbean in North America, but South America is a different story. I challenge you to name me one single relevant Salsa musician from either Chile, Argentina or Brazil (not to mention that the inhabitants of the Andean region are believed to be horrible tropical music dancers) and maybe then we could discuss the genre’s pan-Latin reach. In contrast, I am 100% sure that there are more Rock bands in Mexico and South America than Salsa orchestras.

I suppose you are aware that most of what is named as Latin America actually happens to be South America. So if most of Latin America hasn’t got a grip of Salsa we can’t really talk of a pan-Latin identity, can we? Therefore, we can conclude without a doubt that the notion of a pan-Latin identity in Salsa is false (personally I also find it discriminating but that’s a different story).

In the 19th century a French aristocrat named Arthur de Gobineau wrote a book called An essay on the inequality of the human races. Till the second half of the 20th century most of the theses held in this book were believed to be scientifically true. Nowadays, however, most of what de Gobineau argumented is widely accepted to be not true. Although, de Gobineau inspired tons of works which followed his ideas, it wouldn’t be wise to poste his views just because there has been written much about them.--Rivet138 (talk) 22:11, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

The sources you give are not the equal of the books I pointed to. A band on Youtube? No. The Alberto Fuguet piece published by a fine scholarly journal would be pretty good but he does not mention salsa so we cannot use it here. So we have your personal impression and some sources that don't fit the job... I don't think there is a good enough reason to remove all of the "pan-Latin" bits from the article. Certainly it will forever be true that Willie Colón and Eddie Palmieri have been described as promoting a pan-Latin music, even if you think they failed in the task. In the context of cosmopolitan cities with multicultural strains, the term pan-Latin applies in the sense that the various cultural influences can be combined in salsa, that the people can work together to play salsa, and dance to it, rather than remain antagonists. Perhaps the term "pan-Latin" is simply being used to describe a truce between Puerto Rican and Cuban immigrants in New York. Perhaps it is a lot larger than that. The one sure thing is that we should not remove the term because we think it's wrong; instead we should line up some powerful sources to argue that "pan-Latin" has not been effective. Give the reader both sides, in proportion. Binksternet (talk) 23:37, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

In Fuguet’s article “I am not a magic realist” published by Salon magazine he says: “I don’t deny that there exists a colorful, exotic aspect to Latin America, but in my opinion, life on this continent is far too complex to be so simply categorized. It is an injustice to reduce the essence of Latin America to men in ponchos and sombreros, gun-toting drug lords and sensual salsa-swinging señoritas”.I am not a Magic Realist

Leopoldo Tablante Alcalá, a scholar from Venezuela who has done research on Salsa, argues, in his article “Las multinacionales del disco y la comercialización de la salsa”, that the diffusion of Salsa was rather the result of a strategy of multinational labels like Sony Music and CBS to segregate the music market than that of a pan-Latin identity. And affirms that a lot of Latin Americans don’t feel at ease with it. Music Industries

Sociologist Hernán Ibarra points out, in his book La otra cultura, that Salsa in Ecuador antagonizes with the Andean spirituality, which is conditioned by a demure, reserved type of dance. He also adds that in Quito, the capital city, Salsa has largely remained a sectarian cult among the middle class (who can afford dance lessons), as the popular sectors prefer “música rocolera” instead. La otra cultura

By the way, that Band is the most popular Uruguayan Rock band ever, so it deserves more respect.

Furterhmore, for an overall critique of a Latin American identity see: Walter Mignolo (The Idea of Latin America), José Joaquín Brunner ("Discurso contra el macondismo"), Jorge Volpi (El insomnio de Bolívar).--Rivet138 (talk) 02:02, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Video Salsa dancers (dancesport)

I have added a video describing dancing salsa in Cali during the dance competition at the World Games 2013.--Roboting (talk) 21:27, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Edit request on 5 March 2012

Considering that Puerto Ricans became AMERICAN Citizens in 1917, the article refers to Puerto Ricans as immigrants. Puerto Ricans are AMERICANS not immigrants. In paragraph two: "Most specifically, however, salsa refers to a brand developed in the 1960s and '70s by Cuban and Puerto Rican immigrants to the New York City area and its later stylistic descendants including 1980s salsa romantica and other seb-genres."

And...also later in the article...the term "Puerto Rican Immigrants" is used again...see below:

"The precise scope of salsa is highly debatable.[15] Cuban, Dominican and Puerto Rican immigrants in New York have used the term analogously to swing or soul, which refer to a quality of emotionally and culturally genuine music in the African American community."

Perhaps when referring to Puerto Ricans, you might indicate or refer to Puerto Ricans as "Puerto Rican Americans" Others such as Cubans, Dominicans, and those from Latin America are immigrants.

Doliven (talk) 15:19, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Done Calling them Puerto Rican Americans loses the sense of recent arrival which is currently present. I've adjusted the text to use the term migrant instead. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 06:10, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

It may interest you to know that "American" citizenship was imposed on the Puerto Rican people by an act of Congress. It, therefore, is a statutory citizenship, not a citizenship guaranteed by the Constitution. As such, it can be revoked at the whim of Congress. Wake up, Puerto Ricans! It is way past time for us, as a nation, to attain our political independence from the "American" Empire. 68.174.108.226 (talk) 08:01, 5 February 2014 (UTC)Alan1-11-1951

music file?

Top: clave. Bottom: basic conga tumbao on one drum. S: slap, O: open tone, h: palm heel, t: finger tips.

I have seen that some basis of rhythmic is written in some form (see illustration).

I was just wondering, if wikipedia could contains some musical file to make this rhythmic possible to heard? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.199.98.153 (talk) 15:03, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Bailarines de Salsa en Cali.webm

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 23:07, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Bailarines de Salsa en Cali.webm

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:53, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

March 2020

Dear Vyndle0,
Since you appear to be a new user here on Wikipedia, I am going to assume good faith and will explain why I am going to revert the edit you applied twice, here and here. It is important to remember that everything we add or change in Wikipedia articles needs to be corroborated by a citation to a reliable source; anything else is considered "original research". It is quite possible that you know more about Cuban music than I do, but what's important here is the principle of respecting existing content that previous editors had added, along with the citations they collected from reliable sources. Therefore:

1. when you changed "Puerto-Ricans" to "Cubans", you altered the content away from the existing cited sources, such as Hutchinson: "... salsa music and dance "both originated with Cuban rhythms that were brought to New York and adopted, adapted, reformulated, and made new by the Puerto Ricans living there."";
2. when you changed the order in which the names were listed, you re-assigned the creation of the Fania All-Stars from Johnny Pacheco to Celia Cruz, which is not supported by the sources: the article on Pacheco says: "He is one of the most influential figures in Latin music, best known for being the creator of the Fania All-Stars and Fania Records, and for coining the term "Salsa" to denote the genre.".

To make extra sure, and aside from the sources cited above, I have also consulted my copy of The Garland Encyclopedia of World Music, which defined salsa, as follows:

Beginning in the 1960s, Puerto Ricans and other Hispanic Caribbeans living in New York City modernised and transformed the son by paring down ensembles, combining elements of jazz, and using urban-oriented lyrics. The term salsa distinguished it commercially from its Cuban predecessor, though musicians and audiences have always acknowledged its connections with son. [...] Music that elsewhere might be called salsa is still produced in Cuba, though locals reject the term as a U.S.-derived commercial name.

—The Garland Encyclopedia of World Music (1998), "Salsa".

In conclusion, I will now revert your latest edit, in hopes that you will abide by the Wikipedia guidelines in future, as I tried to guide you already with the three templates I left at your talk page. Thank you, in advance, for your cooperation.
With kind regards; Patrick. ツ Pdebee.^{(talk)(become old-fashioned!)} 10:44, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

References

Misrepresents American influence in Salsa

Salsa is a meta-genre composed of a variety of Latin music genres and rhythms, some of them of Cuban origins. In addition to the Cuban son, cha-cha, guajira, charanga, bolero, and danzon, Salsa also incorporates bomba, plena, aguinaldo, and danza from Puerto Rico, bossa nova from Brazil, and jazz (in the sense that it incorporates improvisation and swing, and elements from progressive jazz which is itself a fusion of jazz with other non-American influences). This article overrepresents the influence of American rhythms such as rock, R&B, and funk in Salsa--which are truly very rarely incorporated. I mean, R&B is not even a genre but a fusion of genres. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.5.112.9 (talk) 04:45, 24 May 2020 (UTC)