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Archive 1Archive 2

Salsa dancing controversy

We should make it clear that salsa is not danced in spanish speaking countries, only in the USA and countries where it has a greater cultural influence, like europe and japan. The way it is danced is an US-american invention, and the concept of learning the steps by heart is by no means a hispanic tradition. For us latinos, taking dancing lessons is as weird as going to kissing or walking school. Dancing is something you learn at home and with your sweetheart, and not paying for it. By the way, you will never see male latinos wearing shiny red shirts, glossed lips and dancing with robotized sincronization. To make things worse, music branded as salsa and danced in other countries, like colombia or mexico, does not come from salsa music, it is the other way around. Travel there, go to any wedding or birthday party, and ask if can take a look. In latino countries you do not need to know someone to go to a party, and the locals will be always glad to show you what the real thing is like. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.77.46.96 (talk • contribs) 05:34, 2 July 2005

Relax, dude. Even if all your points were correct, a. this is an encyclopedia, not a forum, b. this is about dance, not politics, and c. if history is any guide, German and Japanese people could do much worse. elpincha 2 July 2005 15:23 (UTC)
I see plenty of latinos in concerts dancing with robotized sync. I don't see gringos dancing with robotized sync at parties. learning steps by heart among latinos happens in early childhoood, just like learning mother languages. Learning steps by heart by americans is just ike learning spaninsh language; and it is not a cause of insult or outrage. They dance/play salsa in cuba, and it is no way a "US influenced world". They probably don't dance foxtrot much in Peru, but it is not because Peru is not under US influence. If music is branded as salsa, it is salsa, even it is pachanga. Musical genres tend to mix. You are making all false noise, and politicizing dance and music is disgusting indeed. mikka (t) 2 July 2005 17:24 (UTC)
In Spain, salsa dancing is often learnt in lessons. --Error 3 July 2005 01:41 (UTC)
Most nightclubs in Colombia are called "crossover" nightclubs, and they play a mix of different kinds of music throughout the night, ranging from electronic and tecno music, to "rock en español", reggae, reggaeton, merengue...and guess what?? SALSA. All of this occurring in only a few hours of partying. There are also A LOT of specialized salsa dance clubs in Bogota, Cali, Medellin and other cities, where you can dance salsa (son, guaracha, pachanga, etc) all night. I have friends who throw salsa-only parties at their houses. And to really enjoy salsa dancing, you HAVE to know, not only the basic step, but also some variations of these steps. Synchronization is a required attribute of a salsa dancer, and it's based mostly on instinct but also on certain cues and signals that dancing partners give to each other and that lead to many "standard" turns and steps. Achieving the right "fell" and "flow" requires a good amount of practice and experience.
I know this to also be the case of Caracas and Isla Margarita, in Venezuela, where I've also lived. I even went to a salsa only dance club in Sao Paulo, Brazil, earlier this year (2005). In Colombia, as in most Latin countries where salsa has a strong following, salsa dancing is learnt from relatives, friends or girlfriends/boyfriends.
On a side note, it is probably right that big parties in small towns of Latin countries are open for everyone...but that is NOT the case of many parties in medium to big cities (pop. 200,000 and over. For reference, Bogota, Colombia, has more than 7'000'000 inhabitants). If it is a street party or festival, sure, you can join the party. But, at least in Bogota, street parties are a very rare ocurrence, and most parties are hosted in someone's house.
Maybe all of this dancing related discussion should be in Salsa (dance). --Cbohorquezm 04:51, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
It probably should, but that page is enough of a mess right now! I'm refactoring slowly and hope to come back here to take in any points. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sweavo (talk • contribs) 07:07, 15 May 2007

Snippet on the term salsa from the salsa dance page

I just chopped out this passage from Salsa dance page, since the salsa music page deals with it much better. However there may be stuff in here of relevance to salsa dance page. 2

According to testimonials from musicologists and historians of music, the name salsa was gradually accepted among dancers throughout various decades. The very first time the word appeared on the radio was a composition by Ignacio Piñeiro, dedicated to an old black man who sold butifarras (a sausage-like product) on Central Road in Matanzas, Cuba. It is a song titled Échale salsita, wherein the major refrain and chorus goes "Salsaaaaa! échale salsita, échale salsita". During the early 1950s, commentator and DJ "bigote" Escalona announced danceables with the title: "the following rhythm contains Salsa". Finally, the Spanish-speaking population of the New York area baptized Celia Cruz as the "Queen of Salsa". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sweavo (talk • contribs) 07:07, 15 May 2007 (UTC).

That's not the way it was

that's not the way it was.....what is called salsa now is a mixture of cuban "ritmos" liked: son,danzon,conga,guaracha,cha-cha-cha,mambo,montuno,bolero,punto guajiro,mozambique,etc.,this rythms where in existance since the 1800's and startedthat when it got to new york they renamed it salsa, which included or they added some other rithyms liked a little bit of cumbia,bomba,merengue that are tipical of Colombia,Puerto Rico & Dominican Republic. - Anon 21 May 2003

Response to comment above: Salsa is not renamed Cuban music, salsa is latin rythyms from ALL latin countries

No it isn't. Salsa does not have joropo, ranchera, samba and a host of other rhythms from Latin America.


& American music mixed in New York. Is salsa Puerto Rican because it has bomba, NO. Is it Dominican because it has traditional merengue, NO. Is it Cuban because it has Son, NO. Is it American because it has Jazz, NO. Its American or New York music because it was actually born or mixed or developed IN NEW YORK. It doesnt matter how old bomba, son, merengue is, they are types of music on their own. Salsa is the mixture of all these.

no it is not a mixture of all these. These genres all have motifs and structures and patterns and salsa does not use all of them at once nor does it consistently work in even most of them for a bar or two. Show me where Marc Anthony songs have merengue in them. Or cumbia. Do you even listen to salsa, dude?


The clave from the 1800's even the early 1900's was also slower. In the late 60's clave was accelerated & mixtures\experimentations developed a better form of latin music. Salsa.

Clave was not around in the 1800s. Clave was not accelerated though the overall tempo was. Do you known what the clave actually is?

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~


I wouldn't necessarily call salsa "better" latin music. Fact: The term 'salsa' is as ambiguous and blurry as other genre names such as for example 'jazz'. The term 'salsa' can be seen used interchangeably to indicate:

a) latin music in general (usually by ignorant people) b) latin music with prominent Cuban roots c) the specific blend of Cuban roots (son, danzón, rumba), jazz and related styles, and various other Latin American genres, established in New York City during the 1960s d) any kind of music influenced by or derived from c) e) clave-based music f) music that works well for dancing salsa (a.k.a. 'Casino', 'mambo') g) a tasty sauce made from tomatoes, green peppers, onions, olive oil and spices Anyway, as has been pointed out (on wikipedia as well as numerous other sources), this discussion is pointless. --Tdammers 15:31, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree, salsa did not start in New York in the 60´s, it started in the Rift Valley about 24 million years ago when the first proto humans started banging bones on rocks. Everything since then has just been refinement. :P Dimensional dan 10:52, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Masucci

Salsa does not have merengue or any Latin American rhythms in it besides Cuban son and guaracha, period.

At times, salsa artists have switched to bossa nova for a few bars or played a plena or played a guaguanco orchestra style or have played bomba or a merengue, but these motifs have not become part of its usual fabric. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Metancala (talk • contribs).



Also: the founder of Fania was Jerry (or Gerry) Masucci, of blessed memory. Somebody look some of the saucy interviews with Larry Harlow where he tells it like it was, or articles like:

Clave

Great with some more information on how the clave rhythm is used in the music. This can be expanded on a lot. However, I'm unsure if all the descriptions fit here. Maybe (1) we should move the explanation of what the clave is and how it can used by other instruments to clave (rhythm), or (2) we can keep the information on how the clave is used in salsa and only move the general clave stuff? / Wintran 16:51, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I discovered that there was an article about clave rhythm after I had written this stuff and didn't want to delete/rewrite it. :) I think proposal (2) fits best. It's not up to the unfamiliar reader to read a (future) extensive article about clave in all kinds of African an Latin music and find out which of that applies to salsa (or is that basically everything that fits on a 4/4 meter because salsa is such a generic name?). Unfortunately, I am not an expert on afro-latin music, so it won't be me who's going to implement the proposal. :) Han-Kwang (talk) 14:06, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

no reference to latin jazz or jazz in general now largely inspired by salsa rythms nor to fusion styles besides the rap-salsa and beat-salsa. no reference to Santana for instance.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.167.239.33 (talk • contribs) 19:15, 29 May 2005

It is important to mention that Carlos Santana was responsible for broadly popularizing the song 'Oye Como Va', composed by Tito Puente. This link between Santana's latin rock fusion and Salsa music has encouraged many, many musicians to jump to the other side and learn what it has to offer. I think this could be noted in the article, as well as a little more information on the BIG influence of salsa on Latin Jazz. Most of the time, when thinking of Latin Jazz, the main style that comes to mind is the one based on salsa or son, even though brazilian/flamenco/arabic variations are still very important.--Cbohorquezm 01:38, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

From salsa band

I removed the sections below from salsa band and redirected that to salsa music. There was a merge tag on it, but I haven't merged anything because what this describes does not square with what my sources claim. Since that article did not cite any sources, I haven't incorporated anything into this article. Tuf-Kat

Salsa is a highly syncopated, structured rythmic musical form closely tied to jazz. The precise location where salsa was first born is in some dispute, as it is argued it evolved naturally from rythms that sprang spontaneously in three core centers, or birthplaces, of Latin jazz music; those countries were Cuba, Colombia, and Puerto Rico.

Colombia? You must be kidding. 

Yes Colombia, it's obvious by what your writing that you have a problem with Colombians being mentioned near the word
salsa, I suggest you start you search with Nelson Pinedo, Sonora Matancera and El Grupo Niche and work your way up from there.
By the way I'm Dominican just in case you think I'm saying this for any other reason.

Influenced by a strong and well-defined musical heritage emanating from Spain, Mexico, and Portugal (and therefore Brazil), Salsa began as romantic Flamenco-inspired ballads moderated by native Indian and African melodic structure, and appeared over the course of two short years from 1921 to 1922 almost simultaneously in the birthplaces mentioned above. Boleros, a form of romantic ballad with a history of over two hundred years and best typified in the modern day by groups like Trio Los Panchos, is widely recognized as the primary influence in the creation of salsa music.

Romantic Flamenco-inspired ballads? Are you high? Boleros widely recognized as the primary influence in the creation of salsa?

First, salsa musicians generally are playing son and guaracha, genres that come from Cuba. Colombia has nothing to do with salsa's origins, Colombians simply began playing this music and liked it. This was by the 1960s. They still play it. Second, bolero is a different genre with disputed origins, some say Mexico, others say Cuba, but it exists apart from salsa, which in its essence uses more up tempo genres like son and guaracha, though salsa bands do occasionally play boleros.


There are dozens of distinct and highly regimented musical structures to Salsa music strongly tied to small regions within each of the three countries.

No there are not. Guaracha is from Cuba. So are son, mambo, chachacha, guaguanco, son montuno, caballo and the other main patterns used in salsa, except for bomba and plena, occasionally used genres from Puerto Rico.


However, "salsa music" generally refers to a heavily rock-influenced variety of latin jazz. Within the regional styles, Cuba is famous for its son and mambo, Puerto Rico for its jibaro and lambada, and Colombia has its vallenatos and merengue.

Lambada is from Puerto Rico and merengue is from Colombia? Time for your meds. 

First of all Lambada is from Brazil, Second Merengue is from Dominican Republic and Third Colombia's contribution was some form of   
Boogaloo, Guateque and Salsa Bestial or Sonido Bestial, they originated in three regions of the country, Cali, Buenavetura and Boyacá

The style of salsa is tightly bound to the style of Spanish spoken in each country. If one country is widely regarded as the single birthplace of Salsa, it would be Colombia, but this is influenced by the wide respect the Spansih-speaking world has for the quality of Spanish spoken in Colombia. 

O.K Your very misinformed like I mentioned above, although Colombia did contribute to some styles that are now mistakingly called  
salsa by many Colombians, it is far from being the single birthplace of salsa, since the only style that somewhat later on inspired      
someting close to salsa that was found in Colombia, Called Guateque started in the late 40s and The Inspiration from the original
Guateque mixed with Boogaloo and Guaracha made a mix of salsa dancing that started in the 90s. The other two styles arose
in the 80s, have you ever heard of Guateque Sala? nice stuff

            OH YEAH I WOULD LIKE TO SAY TO EVERYONE: ENJOY MUSIC LETS NOT MAKE ANY MORE BARRIERS, WE HAVE
            ENOUGH OF THOSE, BESIDES IF YOUR MAKING SUCH A BIG DEAL ABOUT WHERE MUSIC IS FROM AND YOU GET
            IN A RAGE BECAUSE SOMEONE SAYS OTHER WISE, THAN YOU PROBABLY DON'T KNOW HOW TO DANCE ANY WAY.
                       OR DON'T YOU KNOW THAT DANCERS ARE LOVERS NOT FIGHTERS AND WE LOVE SALSA


What? Colombia is NOT the birthplace of salsa. A nice country but NOT the birthplace of salsa because its folkloric music is not employed in salsa much if it all nor do Colombian motifs dominate in salsa. The montuno is not Colombian, neither are the percussion instruments, nor are the patterns. Period.


"In reality, salsa evolved simultaneously in several parts of the world, possibly triggered by the early precursors of jazz music filtering down to South America from New York and the southern states of the United States."

This makes no sense.

Above we have utterly moronic statements such as "salsa was born in colombia" or even worse from "Spain, Mexico and Portugal"???? Portugal??? complete and utter non-sense. Spain and Mexico??? Does Mariachi, ranchera or any Mexican musical style even remotely sounds like Salsa? What is called Salsa comes from Cuba, it is a 100% Cuban creation. That is testified not only by musicologists but by the very same people playing the music. And by the way, I am not Cuban (I am Puertorican). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.23.231.8 (talk) 05:59, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

The Early Years: 1922-1940

Some of the best early bands, such as Cuba's Beny More or Puerto Rico's Daniel Santos, adopted the "big band" style present in New York. This style spread quickly throughout the entire Spanish-speaking world, and by 1934 was firmly entrenched, dominating most clubs and musical venues. It was during this heyday that some of the most famous musicians, such as Tito Puente and Celia Cruz, got their start. During this same period, the bolero - the music ballad form that helped create salsa - also evolved rapidly with the advent of extraordinary voices such as Julio Jaramillofrom Ecuador.


In 1922 Beny More was 3 years old. He wasn't adopting anything. In 1940 he was 21 and if anything, singing with trios in his hometown. Daniel Santos was out on his own by the age of 12, true enough, but primarily became famous with La Sonora Matancera, hardly a big band and hardly prominent between 1922 and 1940.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Metancala (talk • contribs) 03:00, August 22, 2007 (UTC).

The New York Explosion: 1941-1963

A key aspect to enjoying salsa music is the recognition that its form has rigid and apparently inflexible rules about rhythm and melodic structure that are ignored as a song progresses towards its climax. Similar structure applies to dancing salsa music, in which side-to-side hip movements are combined with moving the upper body to different rythms; this, too, is abandoned as a song progresses. It was for these very reasons that the highly rigid and structured society of 1950's America went wild when it discovered salsa music. The interest in multipel dance forms such as the cha-cha, the mambo and merengue caused an explosion of musical venues and concert halls worldwide, but primarily centered in New York city.

As rock began to spread, a small number of salsa bands - such as Cuba's Los Zafiros - explored mixing salsa and rock rythms.


This is laughable. Rigid and inflexible rules about rhythm that are ignored as a song reaches its climax?

Show me where this happens. Name a song where the band stops playing in clave during the climax or when the conguero stops playing a tumbao and randomly beats on the drums like a maniac or where a bongosero stops playing the typical salsa bell pattern.

Side to side hip movements are abandoned? You must be a pretty terrible dancer. IF you are not turning, you are marcando, dancing the steps, and you will continue the hip movements. If you break into something else you will look like a doofus and make your partner mad.

America did not discover "salsa" in the 1950s because nobody called it that. Americans danced mambo and chachacha back then and in the 1930s were wild for "rumba" because of The Peanut Vendor, a big hit at the time which was actually a son and had nothing to do with rumba.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Metancala (talk • contribs) 02:57, August 22, 2007 (UTC).

Psychadelic Salsa: 1967-1978

During the psychadelic years, rock-influenced salsa bands such as Johnny Pacheco, Pete 'El Conde' Rodriguez, Poncho Sanchez, the Fania All-Stars and El Gran Combo, evolved salsa into its modern form. From Pucho and his Latin Soul Brothers to Ray Baretto, a strong cultural identity cobmined with modern jazz structure to form delightful and advanced rytnmic and musical forms that in turn have influence modern jazz to this day.Johnny Pacheco is one of the people responsible for giving this genre the name by which we know it today


Poncho Sanchez was a 16 back in 1967 and if anything was playing in a garage band. He was a sideman until 1982 and did not evolve salsa. Pete el Conde was not influenced by rock. He sang in a very tipico style and did not sound like Robert Plant, ever. Pacheco acknowledged the influence of rock to the extent of putting percussion up front on the bandstand but nothing he recorded in those years sounds like Led Zeppelin. Matter of fact, I dare you to listen to El Artista and find me a rock-sounding tune. Modern jazz structure means nothing. Jazz typically plays a theme and then has solo after solo. Salsa has a theme, montuno, mambo, montuno, moña, different structure. If you mean jazz and rock harmonic influence, then you may have a valid point, though picking that out is not easy.


On Thursday, August 26th, 1976, the Fania All-Stars played at a club in New York City called the Cheetah, and in a single song gave birth to a new form of salsa called "the 70's salsa sound". Within a year of that night, fifteen of the twenty-one musicians in that recording session each formed their own bands, which went on to be the most successful and recognized sdalsa bands of all time. Those musicians were Ray Baretto, Willie Colon, Larry Harlow, Johnny Pacheco, Roberto Roena, Bobby Valentin, Hector Lavoe, Ismael Miranda, Pete 'El Conde' Rodriguez, Adalberto Santiago, Bobby Cruz, Jose 'Cheo' Feliciano, Ricardo Ray, and Yomo Toro.

This is a silly statement. Barretto already had a band by 1971, he had been a bandleader since the early 1960s. Willie Colon had a band since 1967, Richie Ray from the early 1960s, Pacheco also had his own band, hell, even Roena had put together Apollo Sound by then. Harlow was a bandleader by 1965 or 1966.

Look, Fania All Stars was just a group of good musicians who rocked. On their own, as bandleaders each made their own interesting contributions to the music. Together, they served as focal point for the music and gave it a face, so to speak. 

Your correct in all the above mentioned but I think the part of the Fania All-Stars giving the birth to the new form of salsa refers
to the fact that they gave the name "SALSA" and the many genres that people mistakingly call salsa an obvious distinction, Basically   
They defined what salsa is and that my friends is the salsa that we listen to today, after them it was Salsa no doubt about it

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

The Rock Years: 1980-1995

Existing bands such as those led by Celia Cruz and Tito Puente evolved along with modern taste to a stronger rock style, while at the same time well-known and talented salsa bands saw a sharp decline in interest in their music in the united states. Meanwhile, salsa saw an explosion in interest in other countries, including France, Spain, Mexico and several countries in Africa. Groups from those countries, such as Africando, Ricardo Lemvo, and Grupo Niche quickly became household names. The discovery by Ry Cooder of the artists that formed the Buena Vista Social Club re-introduced the world to the cuban son, and salsa was reinvigorated from its native musical roots.


Celia and Puente did NOT record rock-influenced salsa in this period. Where are you getting this information from? Neither of them did much of anything with rock except for an attempt to record some novelty pop tunes in the 1960s.

Africando and Lemvo weren't famous until the late 90s and Ry Cooder and Buena Vista came out in 1997, so don't fit in your period and their album had nothing to do with salsa. The rootsiness was what made it have appeal and believe me, Ibrahim Ferrer didn't need to listen to Jerry Rivera to figure out how to sing nor has this music any real salsa influence. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Delisted GA

There are no images. slambo 17:50, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Relisted. I find this attitude outrageous and against the community spirit. It took me 25 seconds to find an appropriate pic in the backlinks. Why didn't you do the same? mikka (t) 20:05, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
Thanks, that's what I was hoping would happen. slambo 20:57, 23 October 2005 (UTC)


Del Sol & De La Luz

There is a Wikipedia-wide confusion here. Mariano: you just added to it... (que me haces compatriota!). De La Luz is a Japanese standards band, and there are many Del Sol bands, including a Jap one who is a knockoff of De La Luz. Capisce? And also the "Del Sol" article is simply a disaster as of 9/Dec/2005. Go and make it right. elpincha 07:58, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Sorry about that, but a sentence ends presenting Orquesta Del Sol, and the following sentece gives details about a Orquesta de la Luz. And this from an anon edit!. Seams I can't help you fixing the mess. Please, attact the appointed articles at will. Mariano(t/c) 08:27, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Audio samples of salsa music

It's good to see some audio samples! Just two comments:

  1. The third audio sample (Los Van Van - Salsa Cubana) is incorrectly linked, and sends the user to the same audio file as the second song.
  2. The second song sample, Ay Mi Cuba by Tito Puente, is more of a Cha-cha-chá than a salsa song.

- Wintran 22:20, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Fixed the first one, will see what I can find to replace the second with soon. Tuf-Kat 08:49, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Great! Regarding my second point, that music sample sounds to me like a modern type of Cha-cha-chá that is similar to a slowed down salsa with the güiro rhythm added, which forms the basic rhythm of the Cha-cha-chá dance style. It's also way too slow for most of today's salsa dance styles. However, this is just my personal opinion, some people might call this salsa as well.
- Wintran 18:04, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

A good sample for replacing the Tito Puente sample is Hector Lavoe's "Periodico De Ayer" from the mid-70's. Thats a true salsa brava with Son, Jazz, R&B, etc. Its a very traditional salsa brava popular in all latin america.

A good example of Salsa Romantica is Eddie Santiago's "Lluvia" very popular in latin america & considered one of if not the best salsa romantica of the mid-80's. ninabeba

I'd rather add more sound samples than replace what's there, but I have no qualms about either of those two. Tuf-Kat 04:31, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
IMO, the balance is a bit off regarding the samples. There are 2 songs from the Fania-influenced New York scene (Celia Cruz and Tito Puente), and one from Los Van Van. Although the title says 'salsa cubana', van van is generally considered more of a songo group (in fact, the only songo group worth mentioning in wikipedia), or else timba (at least the more recent recordings). 'Salsa Cubana' is not the same as 'Salsa'. --Tdammers 15:38, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Citations

Citations shouldn't be moved in or outside of sentences for formatting reasons since being inside or outside of the sentence indicates that the citation applied to the sentence or to the entire preceding paragraph. Hyacinth 08:33, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I have switched it to use non-breaking spaces between cites and the preceeding sentence. Tuf-Kat 08:48, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Most FAs use the citation format I switched it to; that's why I changed it. --Spangineer (háblame) 00:50, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I have asked over at Wikipedia:Cite your sources about the issue and didn't get much of an answer. I will add hidden notes within this article. Hyacinth 03:48, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
I believe this article used Wikipedia:Harvard referencing but has seen degenerated. Hyacinth 03:55, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it's been using that style ever since its FAC. the move of notes outside sentence is per suggested style at WP:FN#Style_recommendations.Circeus 04:32, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Example clips

You may want to vary the salsa clips. All three are cuban salsa's when true salsa is new york not cuban. Fania new york salsa should be included and puerto rican as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ninabeba (talk • contribs) 19:56, 14 May 2006

Please sign your posts on talk pages per Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks! Hyacinth 03:43, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Band leaders

"Bands most typically consist of ten to fourteen people, one of whom is the vocalist and bandleader." This isn't universally true, and I'm not sure it's even that common - I think more bandleaders are instrumentalists than lead singers. James barton 13:27, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree. It's true that salsa bands are often quite large, involving ten and even more people, but it's just as common with instrumentalists as bandleaders, and instrumentalists who function as the main vocalist as well. / Wintran 15:50, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Okay, how about "Band typically consist of up to a dozen people, one of whom serves as band leader, directing the music as it is played." Does that work for everyone? James barton 11:46, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Sounds good to me! / Wintran 21:49, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Change made. James barton 02:07, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Songs and instrumentation

"Salsa bands play a wide variety of songs, including plenas and bombas, cumbia, vallenato and merengue pieces; most songs, however, are modern versions of the Cuban son." I personally wouldn't count a merengue as salsa, but I'll acknowledge that others may disagree. More importantly though, I think that the guaguanco is almost as important as son, and should be mentioned here. James barton 11:47, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

In 30 years of listening to this music I have never heard a salsa band play a bomba live. No one knows how to dance it. Salsa bands simply don't have that kind of variety, only a select few had. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Metancala (talk • contribs) 02:49, August 22, 2007 (UTC).


The piano is often considered to be part of the rhythm section - I'll check tonight, but I think that the Gerrard and Sheller gives the rhythm seciton as being made up of percussion, piano and bass. Also, there's no mention of the electric or string bass in here. If the piano is part of the rhythm section because it typically plays the montuno, then I guess saxes could be in here in some older arrangments. James barton 11:50, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't quite understand what the "rhythm section" is supposed to refer to. As more or less all instruments are inspired by the clave to some extent, they could all be said to contribute to the overall rhythm. Check out this quote, I kind of like it as a way to describe the feel of salsa music: "Most western music is melodic with rhythms added while salsa music, fundamentally, is rhythms played melodically." [1]
- Wintran 21:28, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm following Gerard and Sheller in "Salsa! The Rhythm of Latin Music" [2] by including the bass and the piano as part of the rhythm section as well as the percussion. Unlike the horns / flute / violin / whatever is playing the melody, the bass and piano have defined roles that contribute to the groove of the piece - the bass helps drive the rhythm with "anticipated bass", which is making chord changes a beat early. The piano, or sometimes the sax or another instrument, plays the montuno, a two bar phrase which shows where the '1' is as opposed to the '5'. James barton 02:05, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Sounds ok with me, but maybe we should explain what the montuno is, and if possible include a definition of the rhythm section and what sets it apart from the other sections and instruments? / Wintran 08:26, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
We could easily have an article on salsa rhythms and the structure of salsa songs. If we included notation, a desription and a sample for all the major rhythms, plus notes on the structure of salsa music, I think this article would become too big. What do you think? James barton 09:22, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
That's true, we can't really include descriptions and rhythm examples of all instruments and various styles of salsa music in this article. But maybe that's more of a Wikibooks project? I have little experience of Wikibooks, however, but I'd gladly help out if someone has time to start such a book. Wintran 21:47, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

The bell played by the timbalero and bell played y the bongocero are both described as a cowbell. I don't remember the right names, but I believe they're called somethign different. Is the bongocero's bell the campana? James barton 12:05, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I checked some online salsa glossaries, and it seems like the cowbell of the bongocero can be referred to as the bongo bell or the campana (like you said). The timbalero's cowbell is referred to as the mambo bell. / Wintran 21:33, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
They are in fact both cowbells (originally). And the Spanish word 'campana' means nothing more than 'bell'. The word 'cencerro' is also encountered and refers to both bells. In doubt, though, the word 'campana', especially when used by English speakers, usually means bongo bell though. The timbalero typically uses two distinct bells, the mambo bell (large, mid-pitched, long sustain) and the chá bell (small, higher pitch, short sustain). Check out the Spanish article about 'cencerro'.--Tdammers 15:44, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Rhythm

"Salsa music always has a 4/4 time signature" - on this basis, merengue is not salsa (which I am happy with!), but rumba is not salsa either. A number of songs I would count as salsa have rumba breaks in them, and I think rumba is normally written out in 6/8.

I've very little experience of rumba, but I don't think I've ever heard what I would consider salsa music being played in 3/4 or 6/8. I might be especially strict with this, however, as I've been dancing salsa for some time. During the dance I'm depending on the music to be in 4/4 for the steps to work. However, it wouldn't really surprise me if some salsa musicians have experimented with other time signatures, even though it would mess up the traditional clave rhythm. / Wintran 21:45, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I know where you're coming from, but I would count "El Avion de la Salsa" (on the album of the same name by Jimmy Bosch) as being salsa, but it includes a ~30s rumba break. I know there are more examples, although I'll grant that I can't think of them right now. Also, rumba, although it has more of a two-beat than a four-beat feel to is, doesn't mess up clave - it would tend to use rumba clave rather than son clave. I'll try to find a couple more examples. James barton 01:58, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the example, I'll have a look at it. I can see that a 2/4 time signature could work, but I'm skeptical to an uneven lower-number, such as 3/4 or 6/8, as it won't be danceable using the popular salsa dance style, and I believe the standard son or rumba clave would have to be modified to "fit" (however, according to clave rhythm, there exists a specific 6/8 clave used in certain types of rumba). Regarding the sentence, I'm open to suggestions, and the change by TUF-KAT sounds fine with me: "Salsa music is traditionally based on a 4/4 time signature". The Rhythm section could use more references though; I'll try to assist with that shortly. / Wintran 08:54, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
As you say, 2/4 could work with salsa, but a 6/8 rumba won't. Rumba dance has a two feel to it, so it can work with 4/4 salsa music, being danced on the 1 and 3, but it can also be danced to 6/8 rumba music, which is felt as two groups of three. I'm going to ask someone more knowledgeable for more rumba examples :-) James barton 09:16, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Actually, most of the rhythms know as "salsa" (most prominent influences being rumba, son and mambo), excluding cha-cha-chá and bolero (both definitely 4-beat) have a 2-beat feel to them, usually subdivided into 4 or 3 'ticks'. Somehow, however, it has become standard practise not to notate either of these rhythms as 2/4, but rather as 4/4 (actually meaning 2/2) or 6/8 (sometimes 12/8) respectively. The key to salsa notation is the idea that one clave always takes 2 bars (to make clave turns easier). This way, both an 'even' rumba rhythm (like a yambú or slow guaguancó) as well as pretty much all son-based salsa grooves (including the charanga-style variants and most timba rhythms) turns out as 4/4, while ternary subdivisions (e.g. bembé, ternary rumba colombia etc.) are generally written as 6/8. Merengue, on the other hand, is generally written in either 2/2 or 2/4, in both cases accurately mapping musically strong beats to half or quarter notes. Most important to remember, though, is the fact that the time signatures traditional music notation (largely based on European music tradition before 1700) don't accurately describe non-European rhythmical idioms, so the question whether a salsa rhythm "is" 4/4 or rather 2/2 is void. --Tdammers 14:11, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

1980s

Merengue is explicitly mentioned here as sapping the audience for salsa, while being included as a type of salsa in the songs and instrumentation section. This isn't neccessarily a contradiction, but could use some clarification James barton 12:05, 20 February 2006 (UTC)


Merengue is not salsa. It is a Dominican dance genre that eventually incorporated Cuban percussion like conga drums (traditionally merengue is played with a tambora, not a conga, since Dominicans are not Cubans).

Salsa bands played merengues here and there and recorded a couple here and there, not many, during the 1960s, 1970s and even, though rarely, in the 1980s.

What happened was that merengue bands became hot in the 1980s as salsa declined. Bands playing only merengue became popular. A large influx of Dominicans to NY created a new audience for this music and it overshadowed salsa. Audiences seemed to prefer Dominican bands playing merengue and not many salsa musicians, if any, switched over to become all-merengue.

No one has documented this phenomenon of merengue takeover in articles, this is an impression derived from having been there and having spoken to salsa musicians about that era and they shared their perspective.

These days reggaeton is the new rage...

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Metancala (talk • contribs) 02:47, August 22, 2007 (UTC).

1990s

La Sonora Carruseles is a band, not a singer. James barton 12:05, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

The comment above is accurate. In the same section, there's another error: Carlos Vives is not a salsa musician. Colombian vallenato fused with rock is not salsa. Vives and Sonora Carruseles are also not responsible for the spread of salsa music in Colombia! More likely the popularity is due to the Puerto Rican and Cuban salsa musicians who toured through the country - do a lit search on musicologist Lise Waxer, for one, to find more information on how salsa spread in Colombia.

I have restated that paragraph to more directly state what the source claims. The origins of Colombian salsa are already covered elsewhere. It never said that Vives and Carruseles are responsible for the spread of salsa in Colombia. Tuf-Kat 03:50, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Comment about the samples

These samples dont contain a jazzy type nor salsa romantica type salsa its all the same brava style. This article really sucks in representing Salsa!!!

Could someone give me the criteria that made these three samples worth of inclusion in this article. In many music genres articles, many users posts samples of their favorite songs, which I'm trying to prevent. Songs samples should be encyclopedic and chosen for their contribution to music history (in this case Salsa), and their goal should be a better understanding of the article: the reader listening to these samples should be able to understand more the evolution and the characteristics of Salsa music. Although I don't know nothing about Salsa and I don't have time to read all this article, could you give a small "notability rationale" for each sample? Thank you. CG 11:21, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, the samples were chosen because they were pretty representative of several styles, and because I had them or could download them to my computer. I can assure you they're not my favorite songs, as I don't really listen to salsa and have no favorite songs. Whether or not they're the best songs to have samples from is a separate question, irrelevant until someone comes along with more choices. Tuf-Kat 12:30, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I'll try to search for a "Salsa" forum and ask some experts about which songs are the most representative and try to retreive them. As for the samples location, I prefer them to go to the end on a section by themselves, because they will be more visible, and because of standarising issue: most of music articles use a separate section for samples. CG 16:20, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I think most people, or at least guidelines and policies, opposed having a seperate section. One reason is that if the samples can't be incorporated into the article flow then they add nothing (since they are obviously unrelated). Hyacinth 05:31, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Agreed -- it's mentioned on FAC before. I know I've mentioned it and suggested moving samples elsewhere, but I'm pretty sure others have done the same. Tuf-Kat 12:10, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

History first?

I have reverted a change which moved the history section to the beginning. It makes more sense to start with "characteristics", since we should be explaining what salsa actually is before we start going into all the other stuff. The same edit turned "Characteristics" to "Musical characteristics", which is unnecessary because there's no other kind of characteristic it could reasonably be. Tuf-Kat 08:19, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Would you consider putting the part on the word "salsa" later in the piece? It just struck me as not making sense to put that first. Whatever goes first is implied to be the most important aspect of the topic and I think this issue of nomenclature is really much less important than the history and characteristics of the music. It's kind of an internal debate in the salsa community which, although important, is perhaps not so relevant as the basic info. Mona-Lynn 22:28, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
You have a good point, but I think the wiki standard is to put discussion of the title of the article near the top. This provides the most benefit for the reader who may not be entirely certain what they're looking for -- it explains what "salsa" means and may point people to other articles that are more specific to what they're researching (e.g. music of Cuba, mambo). The first thing we should do is set up the scope of the article, and in this case, that means a long-winded explanation of how the word is used. Tuf-Kat 22:53, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm. I think it could be said in a much more succinct manner for the purposes of the casual reader, who might find all the details of that debate a bit esoteric. Might be enough to just say that some of the seminal musicians dislike the umbrella aspect of the term and don't relate to it much, while for many contemporary musicians as well as the rest of the world the term has meaning and is in general use. Also I'm a great believer that proportion of space given to an aspect of a topic would generally be taken as proportion of importance to a topic, and I guess I think the depth given to this particular point is disproportional. However, I know this article has a history that I haven't been part of so I'll leave it at that. Mona-Lynn 23:32, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
It might be reasonable to move what's there (in "the word salsa" section) to an article (salsa (word), I guess), and leave behind a summary, but it would be difficult to summarize all that neutrally in three or four paragraphs. Does anybody else have any thoughts? Tuf-Kat 01:08, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Critics

Rock Music article is a good example of actual music history !

Gives credit where deserved, Not biased oriented views on music !!!

We need to correct alot of the "history" you put in the salsa music article, whats the best way to do this ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ninabeba (talk • contribs)

Please, don't add comments to the article, do so at this talk page. Express your concerns and discuss them with the other users. References and sources are highly recomended. Mariano(t/c) 13:47, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Actually, since this is currently a featured article, references and sources are practically required. Circeus 16:04, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Everything in this article is cited to a source. If you have a source that contradicts something, then work that into the article. If you need help, explain what the source is and what exactly is says here on the talk page and I or someone else will help. Tuf-Kat 00:07, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

How at times history is not exact, SALSA has the same problem !

The problem is that people don't know their history and want to expound on it when it comes to salsa for some reason.


If you talk about who discovered america one might say, Christopher Columbus others might say Cristobal Colon. He made it to Plymouth Rock in 1492 others will say he made it to El Salvador island in the Bahamas. Even others may say it wasnt Mr. Columbus it was the Vikings a few hundred years before, with evidence. Yet others will, with more evidence, say that the chinese a thousand years before Columbus reached California based on archeology. But in the end someone will say that the Polynesians discovered america others that europeans traveled to north america when Alaska & Europe were connected by ice.

What I'm trying to say is that if you throw "all the credit to ancient history" as to who discovered america then it makes it sound like Christopher Columbus didnt do anything or what he did wasnt truly significant, yet if HE had not discovered america we would not be here having this discusion. Is there anyone out there with half a brain ?

When talking about the history of salsa & you cite personal opinions it wont always reflect actual history. If you ask a German about the holocaust some may even deny that the holocaust actually happened, SOME HAVE DENIED IT !

I will ignore the historical diatribe above, too much effort.


When the first mambo was called mambo it was actually a Danzon, were any Danzon musicians cited saying,"Mambo is another name for Danzon" or "Mambo is a concept" or "the term mambo has no real significance" or "its a commercial label". "Mambo is Danzon with a new twist". Why didnt they ??? Why didnt africans say, "Mambo is west African music with another name", Why didnt they take credit away from latinos when mambo or any other music was created ??? Is anyone using there brain in the new century or is brain washing in style.

Mambo was a song written by Israel Lopez Cachao in 1937 using syncopation in playing the danzon, laying a groundwork so to speak to allow the flute player to riff. Eventually Perez Prado applied the concept of syncopation to the guaracha rhythm and thus "mambo" was born. No one said anything about mambo back then, it became a new craze and that was that. It would be silly to say Mambo was West African music with another name because the differences between Cuban music and West African music are vast, period, though you can see basic similarities in terms of polyrhythms and call and response.


The musicians cited are discrediting the creation of a new generation of latinos in New York.

What they were saying is that salsa is not a new genre. And they are right. Puente was there before anyone posting on this site and played with the first musicians to play this music in the U.S. If anyone would know, it would be him.


THATS WHY THIS ARTICLE IS BIAS SINCE IT REFLECTS PERSONAL OPINION OVER HISTORY !!!

The article reflects the personal opinions of the sources that are cited. To add more opinions, please cite your source and explain those opinions in a neutral fashion. Tuf-Kat 02:30, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

MAYBE I SHOULD WRITE MY OWN BOOK AND CITE FROM IT, MAYBE I SHOULD CITE ONLY CONVENIENT BOOKS AND NOT THOSE THAT CONTRADICT MY VIEWS, GET WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY HERE?! OTHER ARTICLES OF THE ORIGIN OF ROCK, JAZZ, MAMBO, FREESTYLE, ETC, DONT USE CITES FROM POSSIBLY BIAS INDIVIDUAL VIEWS. THEY SIMPLY TELL IT LIKE IT WAS, HISTORY. CITES ARE VERY IRRELEVANT COMPARED TO HISTORY.

It is a policy of the site to cite your sources, and not include original research. Tuf-Kat 02:15, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Good point. And this guy would have problems writing his own book due to lack of information.


Thats the problem I have with your cites, THERE NOT NEUTRAL, am I speaking some other language? You asking me to do what your not doing!!! Obviousely I'm waisting my time with a closed mind.

If you think his sources a biased, then you must provide alternative material with sources. You can't request that from him. What you can request is that he does cite sources and not add uncited material on controversial issues (which he hasn't, as far as I know). Wintran 21:31, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

What needs to be done is not cite PERSONAL VIEWS FROM ANYONE. Just explain the actual history of salsa. Let me copy & paste an example from wikipedias Swing Music article:

"Swing music, also known as swing jazz, is a form of jazz music that developed during the 1920s and solidified as a distinctive style during the 1930s in the United States. Swing is distinguished primarily by a strong rhythm section, usually including double bass and drums, medium to fast tempo, and the distinctive swing time rhythm that is common to many forms of jazz.

The first recordings labelled swing style date from the 1920s, and come from both the United States and the United Kingdom. They are characterised by the swing rhythm already at that time common in jazz music, and a lively style which is harder to define but distinctive. Although swing evolved out of the lively jazz experimentation that began in New Orleans and that developed further (and in varying forms) in Kansas City and New York City, what is now called swing diverged from other jazz music in ways that distinguished it as a form in its own right."

These 2 paragraphs, NOT CITING PERSONAL BIAS VIEWS, explains that Swing, although "is a form of jazz" eventually "solidified as a distinctive style" and became "distinguished ... as a form in its own right". Jazz and swing, although swing evolved from jazz, are two distinct styles of american music. Jazz from New Orleans and Swing from New York. If for example you cite Louis Armstrong saying something like, "Swing is New Orleans music with another name" your taking credit away from Benny Goodman, etc. PERSONAL VIEWS NO MATTER WHO THEY COME FROM ARE USUALLY ALWAYS BIAS. It takes away from the new creations of the new generations and distort history.

If all the PERSONAL VIEWS\CITES are removed the article is a pretty good article, historically non-bias. Is that to much to ask for ??? I even gave you an example and there are many more examples like this one from wikipedia !!!

Swing music is subpar if it does not WP:CITE sources; Louis Armstrong's opinions are certainly relevant and should be included in that article. WP:CITE is a policy of this website. Personal opinions (of notable people) are not just allowed -- they are desirable, and should be carefully and comprehensively described. Tuf-Kat 05:56, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
If you think that other views need to be presented in an article, feel free to add those. That's the whole idea of neutral point of view - to present all views fairly and without bias. Wintran 11:19, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, then when members that were part of Hitler's Third Reich denied that the holocaust actually never took place, they MUST have been correct. They were there in Germany so they were visual witnesses. Their "Personal opinions (of notable people) are not just allowed -- they are desirable". THATS WHAT YOUR TELLING ME !!! CORRECT???

I don't understand your point, but yes, opinions are a necessary and integral part of any high quality Wikipedia article. Nazi-related articles can, should and probably do contain the opinions of people who were there (where those opinions are verifiable, etc), including Nazis, Holocaust survivors and anyone else of relevance. Tuf-Kat 00:25, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Reputable sources doesn't always mean correct sources. The view that has the most followers should naturally get a larger space in the article, while a lesser known theory should be presented but not given as much focus (even though you believe the latter to be more correct). In some cases the truth is obvious and should of course be given the most focus, but in more controversial topics the only way to go is to cite as many popular and reputable sources as possible, and trying to figure out which is the most popular theory, while presenting other views fair and square. Wintran 01:28, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

FYI: I havent seen any cites for any other article that talks about the origins of other musics at wikipedia taking credit away from other musicians. WHY? I'll tell you why, because those other articles were historical ONLY, not PERSONAL OPINIONS. You have converted the Salsa Music article into a documentary instead of an encyclopedia. I have a copy of the 'The Penguin Encyclopedia of Popular Music' NO CITES, PURE HISTORY !!! I also have a copy of whats considered in latin america as the Bible of Salsa which is very historical not a documentary full of opinions. For this Salsa Music article you have become wikimentary instead of wikipedia. You guys are giving me the run-around til I get tired, this discusion page is not for you to listen but for you to give wikimentarians the false sense of open discussion when in the end you do what you want and not treat all music articles with the same fairness and respect the readers deserve. Guys, enjoy your cute page, I'll stick to TRUE encyclopedias.

If you have a copy of those books, why don't you WP:CITE what they say? Tuf-Kat 06:11, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry you feel that way about this discussion. I'm trying to understand you, but please listen to us as well. The thing is, there's not always just one history that everyone accept as true. History is a matter of documentation and passing on of words. Sometimes these words are different, depending on who recites them, and they might even change over time. That's why it's important to use as many different sources as possible, to give a neutral point of view of the subject, letting the user find their own view, instead of presenting only one person's observations. You might believe that The Penguin Encyclopedia of Popular Music has the true history, but maybe not everyone agrees with you.
In either case, like Tuf-Kat said, I think you should start contributing to the article, using that book as a reference. The articles of Wikipedia are always under construction, and additions that try to improve it should always be encouraged. Wintran 21:54, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Penguin has no personal cites just pure history. Like I mentioned before, if you guys are listening, you have a pretty good article with the exception of personal cites. If I cite history from the encyclopedia I will be repeating most of what you guys have put into this article already. If you remove those personal cites, which I dont think you want, your article is a good article, not perfect but good. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a documentary.

If the penguin text is better than the wikipedia article, why not post it here and tell us exactly where and how it is better? If it really is, then merging at least parts of it into the article, replacing questionable content, should be perfectly acceptable (provided no copyrights are violated). Anyway, as far as I can see, the disagreement here stems from the ambiguitiy that is very common in latin music (where a word has 3 meanings at least). The term 'salsa' means so many different things to so many different people that it is impossible to 'prove' that salsa is or is not Cuban music. I think the article (though questionable in parts) reflects this tension quite well. And finally: History is not all hard facts. While there is a broad consensus in the Western world that the WW2-holocaust did happen, the origins of salsa (both the word and the music) are far more vague, and opinions on both the meaning as the origins are diverse. --Tdammers 16:02, 18 July 2006 (UTC)


Clarification

Clarification: Ricky Martin and J Lo were NEVER salsa singers.

Antonio Put some Salsa there baby!!1 Martin 26 Jun 2003

Ambiguity

The 2nd to last paragraph is slightly ambiguous. Was Orquesta Del Sol active in all the preceding countries or just Japan?

--Viajero 12:38 26 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Orquesta del Sol was active in all those countries. Actually, in Puerto Rico it seemed like they lived at the studio of Luisito Vigoreaux's Show del Mediodia for some time...LOL but yes they were active in many countries and in Japan.
--Antonio Dark Siser Martin 27 Jun 2003

Bands You Should Know About

This section does not get auto-archived, it is retained indefinitely. For more information, see Delaying or preventing archival of particular threads. --Cold Salsero (talk) 19:03, 20 March 2011 (UTC)


Above copied from [3] on 23:27, 8 September 2005 by TUF-KAT (talk · contribs) [4]

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