Talk:Saikū

Requested move 24 October 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) estar8806 (talk) ★ 18:38, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

---

Saikū → Saikū Palace – The term Saikū frequently refers to the Saiō. Japanese wikipedia and the english language Kokugakuin University page uses the term Saigu to refer to the Saio https://d-museum.kokugakuin.ac.jp/eos/detail/?id=8608 Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 17:50, 24 October 2023 (UTC) — Relisting.  — Amakuru (talk) 21:52, 1 November 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 00:55, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Support per nominator. Killuminator (talk) 19:11, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

@Killuminator do you likewise support my nomination at Talk:Saiō Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 20:55, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

I've seen the term "Saigu" before. I named the article "Saikū" when I created it because I used to live in Saikū (Meiwa town, Mie prefecture). Everything in the town, the museum, Itsukinomia, all of it is "Saikū". Even the train station and the school. A quick look at Google maps is all "Saikū". "Saigu" might be a historical term (I don't know), but it definitely isn't used at the actual location. I think the fact that the actual museum on the site is called "Saikū Historical Museum" [Historical Museum] should hold some weight. The Saiō was the princess/priestess, and the Saikū the residence. In the same way, the Ise Grand Shrine (the whole purpose for the existence of Saikū) inner and outer shrines are "Naikū" and "Gekū". The naming convention is pretty clear, and a quick online search show pretty much all references to the area and the palace are "Saikū/Saiku". It would seem very wrong to change the name of an article from it's common use name to a more obscure little used name. (talk) 13:33, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Reverting closure per request on my talk page, to allow more time for comment. BilledMammal (talk) 00:55, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per Ka-ru, as the title of natural disambiguator "Saikū Palace" is actually erroneous, according to Ka-ru's comment on Talk:Saiō#Requested_move_24_October_2023. WP:SMALLDETAILS applies for Saikū Palace to hold a distinct topic on the base name "Saikū" while "Saigū" is actually the referred name by Saiō and could be a dab page of these topics. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 06:04, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

@BilledMammal is there a way to concentrate discussion at Talk:Saiō#Requested move 13 November 2023? Before all this edit war canvassing madness it was appropriate to have the discussions be separately, but I feel at this point it has turned into a polarized mess where having two conversations is really counterproductive. I manually changed some things and can we close the discussion here? Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 06:52, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

I broke it because I do not want the bot changing things Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 07:36, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

@NmWTfs85lXusaybq my intention is to concentrate discussion at Talk:Saiō#Requested move 13 November 2023 since having two different discussions is really hard now that this is a way more polarized discussion Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 07:45, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

That's not a proper way to deal with open RM. You are not a page mover and It's too late for you to withdraw the nomination here after you got a support vote. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 07:52, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

@NmWTfs85lXusaybq okay I missed that. This whole thing is really confusing to me since it was moved and now it is not moved. But I guess the vote thing is an important part Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 08:00, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

• Weak oppose The RM at Talk:Saiō was closed as no consensus, so no disambiguation is needed unless it can be shown that Saikū also refers to Saiō. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 13:59, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

  @LaundryPizza03 it was actually closed because the move advocators all agreed on a more preferred title. That’s why it was immediately reopened Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 14:40, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

  As is shown in Eirikr's explanation at Talk:Saiō#Requested_move_13_November_2023, Saikū is only used to refer to the place. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 02:18, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Note to anyone reading this article

Yes, calling this article "Saikū Palace" is incorrect. The "kū" is Saikū means palace, so the article is named the "Saio's Palace Palace". In all of the sources I've seen, it's referred to simply as the "Saikū". I don't understand why we are making up names for articles that are unsupported. In the article and all of the referenced sources, it is simply the "Saikū". Ka-ru (talk) 15:09, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Agreed that this article should not be moved to "Saikū Palace", which is a pleonasm and incorrect.

See also my related response at Talk:Saiō#Requested_move_13_November_2023. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 00:04, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

@Eirikr thank you very much for your input. Do you think that Saikū should be moved to Saigū as a result? Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 01:51, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

@Eirikr do you think a title such as Saigū (palace) would be more appropriate? Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 02:05, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Given that the Japanese placename appears to use the /k/ sound rather than the /g/ sound, I think "Saikū" is probably the most appropriate spelling for the page title.

I do not clearly understand why we should add "(palace)" to the page title. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 02:37, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Please base the discussion on the sources and not on people's opinions. This is why I've had enough of all of this. I've pointed this out over and over again is correct. The Saikū Historical Museum clearly states that the Saikū was the residence of the Saiō. Not that the palace was in the location of Saikū, but that THE Saikū was the residence. I provided a solid set of sources in the past, and there are many more, but all have been ignored. Before anyone makes any decision, please read the sources and don't listen to hear-say. I'll repost some of the sources: Official Local Tourism site [Ise], Official Saiku Museum [Historical Museum], Official Meiwa Town (location of Saiku) information guide [[1]]. The Saikū Historical Museum is a Japanese national museum and is recognised as the autorotative source on this topic. 3 weeks ago, this little corner of Wikipedia was accurate and clear. It has become less so since. Ka-ru (talk) 12:27, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

@Ka-ru, apologies for irking you, but I think you might have misunderstood me. When I say that "Saikū" is "the Japanese placename" or that "Saikū" was "used to refer to the place rather than the person", I am saying that "Saikū" is the name of the location -- the residence. I am not saying that there is some place called "Saikū", and the residence (of some other unspecified name) is in that place.

My intended distinction is that, from what I can find in dictionary and encyclopedia references, "Saikū" with the /k/ is specifically the place (the residence), and "Saigū" with the /ɡ/ is either the place, or the person.

I hope that helps to clarify. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:06, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

@Eirikr is it related to Go-on’yomi vs kan-on’yomi? Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 18:16, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Loosely. For the 宮 character, the readings gū and kū are both classified as so-called 慣用読み (kan'yō yomi) or "customary-use readings", as we can see in the JA Wikt entry at [[ja:wikt:宮#日本語]]. This reading category often refers to kanji readings that are not directly related to the historically inherited readings deriving from the original Chinese words as borrowed into Old Japanese. This includes some surprisingly common words, things like 茶 read as cha, which is actually a re-borrowing from later developments in the Chinese language. At the time of initial borrowing, 茶 was pronounced in Japonified Chinese (in other words, in on'yomi) as ja at the oldest stage (goon), then as ta (the kan'on), and then as sa (the tōon).

Given the reconstructed Middle Chinese phonetics given in the table at wikt:宮#Pronunciation, we would expect Japanese to reflect this as kyū, which we have as the kan'on. I am not sure why this is the kan'on, which is generally younger than the goon. The reading ku (with a short, one-mora u) is shown as the goon, generally the oldest reading. Given the Middle Chinese, I'd expect this to be kū instead, as the nasal ending /ŋ/ in Middle Chinese is regularly reflected in Old Japanese as /u/, which in this case would be the second "u" and thus result in the long two-mora reading kū.

The later Chinese languages often show a pronunciation starting with a g, which suggests the source of the gū reading in modern Japanese usage -- a re-borrowing from a later stage and variety of Chinese. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 20:07, 20 November 2023 (UTC)