Talk:Rosa Raisa

Nationality

@Oliszydlowski and Wikiuserthea: and users familiar with related topics @Nihil novi, Poeticbent, and Volunteer Marek: As this article has been the subject of an edit war on nationality, let's discuss this here rather than in edit summaries, admin and talk pages (User_talk:Oliszydlowski#Your_.28repeated.29_error_about_Rosa_Raisa). My thoughts: 1) it is an undisputed fact she was born in the Białystok, then Russian Empire, a region also known as Russian partition (of Poland). 2) it is an undisputed fact she was of Jewish ethnicity. The question, then, is whether she was a Polish Jew or a Russian Jew, as the edit warring has been concerned with ([1]). Google Book search produces the following results for her name plus 1) "Russian Jew": 4 out of which 2 seem clearly relevant [2], 2) "Russian Jewish": 9 but 0 seem relevant/have preview: [3], 3) "Polish Jew": 10 but 0 seem relevant/have preview: [4] and 4) "Polish Jewish": 6, out if which 1 seems clearly relevant: [5]. So, tough, no consensus in the few sources that we have easily accessible. Looking at other sources, it seems that they describe her as Polish (Jewish) or Russian (Jewish). For example, there are 63 hits for her name plus "Polish soprano" ([6]), and 56 for "Russian soprano" ([7]). Unless there are better sources, I'd suggest labeling her as Polish-Russian Jew. Categories should be used for Polish, Russian and Jewish singers, and the lead should read Polish-Russian-Jewish. Remember: it we are not the judges of nationality, we report what the sources say. If they are confused, then we report that confusion. Finally, some articles sport a dedicated nationality section where justifications and analysis of nationality claims are presented (but that requires sources!). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:27, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

@EdJohnston and Piotrus: I have just now received an e-mail from Charles Mintzer, asking me to post this on his behalf. “I am Charles Mintzer, the author (2001) of the biography of “Rosa Raisa, A Biography of a Diva with Selections From Her Memoirs.” published by Northeastern University Press. In an interview on the Metropolitan Opera Turandot broadcast (1962) she states she was “born in Bialystok, Poland in the area controlled by Russia.” Her first language was Yiddish (at home) and her second language was Russian (at school). In my collection I have several examples of her writing in Russian (Cyrillic), Italian, Spanish, English, but never Polish. I have over a hundred of her concert programs over the years, she always programmed songs and arias by Rachmaninoff, Tchaikovsky, Gretchaninoff, and other Russian composers. In her limited recorded output there are three Russian songs, two Yiddish, but no Polish songs. I am sure she had some affection for her hometown Bialystok, Poland, but never, as they say, “played the Polish card.” In her unpublished autobiography, which her family gave me, she talks about her father’s tea samovar, from his Russian heritage.

As the author of the Wikipedia article, I would like the first paragraph to read: Rosa Raisa, Russian-Jewish dramatic soprano, born in Bialystok, Poland and trained in Italy who became a naturalized American. She possessed a voice of remarkable power and was the creator of Turandot, Puccini’s last opera." Wikiuserthea (talk) 12:09, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

@EdJohnston and Piotrus:, let me explain my own view why I completely agree with Charles Mintzer's suggestion. Oliszydlowski's constant reversals about her nationality were brought to my attention two days ago. I have no association with Russia or Poland, but I do have a doctorate degree in the humanities, so I perfectly understand the historical controversy related to the partitioned Poland. All we are trying to do is to do justice to this soprano and her case was unique. She left Bialystok in 1907 at the age of 14, never to return to that area again. I believe we should honor her own words, and here are the excerpts from her interviews highlighting the sentences where she identifies her own ethnicity:

- The Jewish Forum (January 1922)-- Interviewer: "The Jewish people are very proud of you Mme. Raisa." Rosa Raisa: "I am happy and proud to belong to them."

- Harriette Brower, "Vocal Mastery: Talks with Master Singers and Teachers" (Frederick A. Stokes Co.: New York 1920, pg. 94)-- Interviewer: "You of course speak several languages?" Rosa Raisa: ""Yes, I speak eight," she answered modestly. "Russian, of course, for I am Russian"

Based on his research of several decades, Charles Mintzer in his thoroughly documented biography (published by the academic press) concluded as follows: "Considering that she eventually became a naturalized U.S. citizen, probably the best definition of her ethnicity and unique persona is as an Italian-trained Russian Jew who ultimately lived the American dream of success as an internationally acclaimed opera singer." Charles Mintzer, "Rosa Raisa: A Biography of a Diva with Selections from Her Memoirs" (Northeastern University Press: Boston 2001, pg. 5-6)."

I have no idea what Oliszydlowski's motivation is to constantly revert her identity on the Wikipedia page, but he clearly doesn't know much about this soprano. Wikiuserthea (talk) 11:33, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

@EdJohnston and Piotrus: Also do note that saying "Polish-Russian Jewish," as Piotrus initially suggested as a "compromise," conflates the place of her birth with her ethnicity. She clearly felt (in her own words as I quote above) to be a Russian Jew, never referred to herself as Polish, and all other evidence that Mr. Mintzer provides point to her ethnicity as "Russian-Jewish" and she did not associate herself with being "Polish". In biographical entries, the adjective "Polish" or "Russian" refers either to someone's place of birth or his/her ethnicity, and for this reason you got so many hits for her in both senses. To disentangle her own sense of ethnicity from her place of birth, the only justice to this lady who is not alive to defend herself from Oliszydlowski's constant meddling with her name and nationality, would be as Mintzer also proposed:

"Russian-Jewish dramatic soprano, born in Bialystok, Poland and trained in Italy who became a naturalized American".

Please honor this soprano's own words about her sense of ethnicity and let her rest in peace.Wikiuserthea (talk) 15:09, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

@Wikiuserthea: You present some interesting arguments here. I find them relatively compelling, particularly the quote from Charles Mintzer; Rosa Raisa (January 2001). Rosa Raisa: A Biography of a Diva with Selections from Her Memoirs. Northeastern University Press. p. 5. ISBN 978-1-55553-504-9. which I successfully verified (with the disclaimer that as the book is not on Google Book preview, I was able to read but a snippet, so I cannot check the full context). Unfortunately, per Wikipedia:Verifiability policy we cannot accept emails as reliable sources (through of course they can be discussed here). I find the proposed sentence ("Russian-Jewish dramatic soprano, born in Bialystok, Poland and trained in Italy who became a naturalized American") elegant, but we do have to acknowledge that there are reliable sources which do describe her as Polish-Jewish; we cannot just ignore their existence. That view has to be mentioned in the article, either in lead or in the form of a note. I would suggest both: a sentence that reads "Polish-Russian or Russian-Jewish (sources vary[a]) dramatic soprano, born in Bialystok, Poland and trained in Italy who became a naturalized American". with the [a] leading to a note, in which we would note that there is no consensus among sources (cite a few), and then note that Mintzer in his biography opts for the Russian-Jewish one. If we could publish his email publicly, ex. on his webpage/blog, we could even cite it fully then. If you find it a bit cumbersome, please keep in mind that Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth is our motto here. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:42, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

@Piotrus: I provided the quotes from Rosa Raisa where she describes herself as "Russian" and "Jewish". You should respect her own wishes. I did notice that you and your compatriot Oliszydlowski specialize in this kind of bullying and already had exactly this same scenario twice with other Wiki contributors regarding people born in Bialystok at the time when it was Russia (not Poland). You say "reliable sources" -- her interviews are the most reliable sources. The reliable sources you mention are only *some* of the general reference books, while others describe her as "Russian-Jewish." In that case, the only reliable source should be the one that presents HER OWN view about her ethnicity. I gave the full quotes from her public interviews. This is fully verifiable as these both sources are available through Google search. Don't pretend like you don't know how to do it. I also provided the full quote from the authoritative biography about her life and should you doubt it ("check the full context"), get the book from the library or buy it and read it! Otherwise, you have no credentials to meddle with her identity. Charles Mintzer is an old gentleman who is not techno-savvy to learn the Wiki markup language and asked me for the favor to post his message. I would respectfully ask you to stop ignoring quoted Rosa Raisa's words, to stop describing her ethnicity against how she felt (we call it ethnic chauvinism) and bullying other Wiki contributors who know more about her life than you would ever do. Stop protecting the Polish ultranationalism of your compatriot Oliszydlowski who claims on his user page that Lithuania should be a part of Poland. You already did it in the past (there is the record that we easily discovered today looking at archives)). Enough!!! Wikiuserthea (talk) 03:14, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

@EdJohnston: For the record: There is the public record that I quote in which Rosa Raisa expressed in her own words that she considered herself "Jewish." and "Russian." I will again provide these quotes from her public interviews. These are VERIFIABLE SOURCES, easily found on the internet or in print in the libraries:

- The Jewish Forum, vol. 5 (January 1922)-- Interviewer: "The Jewish people are very proud of you Mme. Raisa." Rosa Raisa: "I am happy and proud to belong to them." - Harriette Brower, "Vocal Mastery: Talks with Master Singers and Teachers" (Frederick A. Stokes Co.: New York 1920, pg. 94)-- Interviewer: "You of course speak several languages?" Rosa Raisa: ""Yes, I speak eight," she answered modestly. "Russian, of course, for I am Russian"

Mr. Mintzer, who is an older gentleman to learn the Wiki markup language at this stage of his life, asked me to post his message. I also gave you the extensive quote from his book about her identity. His book is also fully verifiable and can be easily found either through purchase or library loan. His request is to describe her identity as "Russian-Jewish" (and NOT "Polish-Jewish") because it respects Raisa's sense of her own identity, his research of several decades about her life, and the documented evidence presented in his book. You may find above the full sentence he requested to be retained in the Wikipedia article that he created about Rosa Raisa. Thank you.Wikiuserthea (talk) 03:43, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

@Wikiuserthea: I sincerely apologize if I have caused a nationality dispute, but I simply asked for a reference as you have not provided a page for the book that you claim to be a reliable source. At first I believed that she was Polish-Jewish, but reverted your edit because I was motivated by the fact that you haven't added a bibliography section. Indeed Białystok at that time was a multinational/multicultural city with Yiddish, Polish, Russian and Lithuanian cultures and this causes many disputes and arguments among the Wikipedia community. Since there are quotes, pages and sources (provided by User:Piotrus in the top paragraph) both support the argument that she was either Polish-Jewish or Russian-Jewish, I propose to change the first sentence of the article to: was an Ashkenazi Jewish dramatic operatic soprano. The Ashkenazi established communities throughout Central and Eastern Europe (Germany, Russia, Poland, Austria etc.), which had been their primary region of concentration and residence until recent times, evolving their own distinctive characteristics and diasporic identities.(<ref>Jessica Mozersky, [http://books.google.com.au/books?id=6_DLvjnNmmAC&pg=PA140 ''Risky Genes: fs, Breast Cancer and Jewish Identity''], Routledge 2013 p. 140.: 'this research highlights the complex and multiple ways in which identity can be conceived of by Ashkenazi Jews.'</ref>) There is no doubt that Rosa Raisa belonged to this kind of group of Jewish communities. Since it is difficult to solve this dispute and solve the nationality issue, let us focus on her "Jewishness". User:Oliszydlowski (TALK) 13:54, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

@Piotrus and Oliszydlowski: I still don't understand why you are insisting on eliminating "Russian" from her identity (unless "Polish" is also mentioned). She thought of herself as both "Russian" and "Jewish." Please see the quotes from he interviews again. As I cite above, the quote from Mintzer's book is on page 5. I know well who Ashkenazis are from my own personal experience, but all we (Mr. Mintzer and I) are doing here is respecting Raisa's own sense of her identity as she herself expressed it. She thought of herself as a "Russian Jew" and said it publicly as quoted. I think everyone should respect it and especially on the public page related to her (which Mintzer created a few years back or so).Wikiuserthea (talk) 04:18, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

@Piotrus and Oliszydlowski: Let me alert you that your behavior is in flagrant violation of the international law and the very basic Universal Declaration of Human Rights: "1. Everyone has the right to a nationality. 2. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality." Rosa Raisa expressed her nationality as "Jewish" and "Russian" in her public interviews as quoted and fully documented here with the VERIFIABLE SOURCES. I did it even twice on this talk page and Piotrus still decides to ignore it and every time comes up with something else without mentioning her interviews. Mr. Mintzer in his message here and his book also provided the plenty of evidence why she expressed her nationality as "Russian-Jewish." I fully quoted his book (and Piotrus do not pretend that I did not do it; see the above on this talk page). Do note that, according to the International Law, you have no right to impose on anyone their (Polish or other) nationality against their will. We will be watching your behavior. I am reporting this to @EdJohnston: and will do it to everyone else if needed unless you stop BULLYING on Wikipedia. One more time: Enough!Wikiuserthea (talk) 09:19, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

@Piotrus and Wikiuserthea: I have, frankly, lost interest in discussing this with you until such a point you aplogise to me and Oliszydlowski for your accusation of bullying. Regarding your quotation from Brower (1920), it is certainly very helpful. At the same time I found one ref ([8]) in which it is stated that she called herself "a polish singer" (a claim I cannot verify with any other source, however). I stand by my assessment that we should describe her nationality and Polish-Russian Jewish, with either a footnote or a dedicated section in which we discuss (with quotations) opinions of Mintzer and others. I agree that Mintzer source is the best, and I am leaning towards the agreement that Russian is better than Polish. We cannot, I repeat, ignore the fact that numerous sources (clearly not a minority) describe her as Polish. Another solution would be to describe her as Russian Jewish, with a footnote that would state that a number of sources describe her as Polish; but I am not happy with this: a quantitative analysis does not suggest that "Polish Jewish" view is in a minority that would warrant its exclusion from the lead. PS. On an unrelated note, when this article is editable again, we should link Białystok pogrom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:43, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

@Piotrus: Piotrus, my apologies for using the term "bullying" but you need to understand that constant ignoring of Raisa's own words really got to me. I feel like I stand for her rights because she cannot speak for herself. I would respectfully ask that we include the first paragraph as Mr. Mintzer requested that does show her as a "Russian-Jewish" who was born in Bialystok, Poland, etc. (see above), because it respects her own public expressions of her nationality. This then to be footnoted with the statement that general sources refer to her as both "Polish-Jewish" and "Russian-Jewish." As for the Bialystok Progrom - absolutely! In fact, as Mr. Mintzer shows in his book, she even survived as a young girl this horrific progrom and described it in her unpublished autobiography that her family entrusted him. I would encourage you and everyone else, if interested, to read this book because it shows an incredible strength and cosmopolitanism of this lady. I personally admire her strength that, despite all the horrors of the progrom, she still felt strong ties to the two cultures in which she grew up (Jewish and Russian). Please let's honor it. I will get in touch with Mr. Mintzer to ask him how he would like to include her survival of the Bialystok progrom: either in the footnote or in the main text. I personally would prefer in the main text, but I hope you agree with me that he is the ultimate authority on her (he spent 40 years doing research on her life and career). Please let me know before I proceed to contact him about it.Wikiuserthea (talk) 03:55, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

@Wikiuserthea: I am glad we can resume a productive discussion here. I am not going to object to a footnoted sentence as discussed, through I am still not 100% convinced that removing "Polish" from the lead is best. Still, your sources are highly convincing. Since I don't have access to the Mintzer's book, I wonder - does he discuss the issue of her Jewish family being Russian Jews or Polish Jews? (Through we still need to write those very articles modelling them after Lithuanian Jews... they are currently just redirects to histories, sigh... so much to do). Do we know where her family lived before they came to Bialystok? Did they come from more eastwards part of Russia (which would make them Russian Jews)? Also, perhaps you could invite him to join us here in person. Wikis, after all, are a forum anyone can edit. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:45, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

@Piotrus: I will copy and paste your last post here in my email to Mr. Mintzer. He is an older gentleman and told me he finds it challenging to "conquer" the Wikipedia process of opening the account, maintaining it, and learning the specific markups for the purposes of communication here. For this reason he asked me to replicate his message on this talk page, as I did above. I gave him the link to this page and he is reading it, fully aware of what's going on, but please respect his age. Please see the edit history of Rosa Raisa's Wikipedia page-- when he created it 10 years ago, he wrote as follows: "Italian-trained, Russian-Jewish soprano (May 30, 1893-September 28, 1963) born in Bialystok Poland" and then a month later, to meet the Wikipedia style requirements, edited as follows: "(born May 30, 1893 in Bialystok - died Los Angeles September 28, 1963) was a Polish-born, Italian-trained, Russian-Jewish dramatic soprano." What do you think about saying "Polish-born, Italian-trained, Russian-Jewish soprano"? It would mention "Polish-born" first. (Once again, I have no relation to Russia or Poland to have personal "national" feelings about this issue, but am trying to do justice to Rosa Raisa's life (whose art I admire) and Mr. Mintzer, a personal friend, and his decades-long research.) In the book, on pp. 4-6 he is discussing whether she should be called a "Polish" or "Russian" Jew and concludes for the latter (as quoted above) for several reasons, including the following: "There is no evidence that Raisa knew much, if any, Polish. Most Jews of Bialystok gravitated toward the Russian culture. One never finds Polish-lnaguage material on her concert programs; yet they almost always included Russian folk and art songs, and Yiddish songs were frequent encores." (pg 4) Then on pg 5: "These points are made because many reference works identify Raisa as Polish, while others refer to her as Russian Hers is a case where nationality and ethnicity, as well as cultural factors, converge to create definitional problems. Considering that she eventually became a naturalized U.S. citizen, probably the best definition of her ethnicity and unique persona is as an Italian-trained Russian Jew who ultimately lived the American dream of success as an internationally acclaimed opera singer."Wikiuserthea (talk) 10:58, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

@Piotrus: Mr. Mintzer got back to me. Unfortunately, and this should not come as a surprise as the whole world knows about it, it's difficult to trace the full history of movements of the European Jewry, as most of their records were destroyed in the Holocaust. Raisa made the attempts during her lifetime to trace her family distant history, but without much success, except knowing that most of her ancestors were living in Bialystok while it was under the Russian rule. He kindly shared with me her note about her father from her unpublished autobiography that her family entrusted to Mr. Mintzer. As evident from this note, she clearly considered her father to be a "Russian" (obviously of Jewish faith) and that she privately spoke to him in Russian. I will quote it here with the understanding that this is the protected material and should not be reproduced anywhere without Mr. Mintzer's permission (and there is no reason for reproducing it anyway). I hope that's not the case, but if you have any doubt about it, then advise me how to post on this talk page the image file of that page from her hand-written manuscript.

This note refers to conversations with her father when re-united in USA in 1920, and her husband's (Rimini) chagrin at their long chats that he could not understand (her husband was an Italian baritone): “And since he did not understand Russian and therefore could not make out the substance of our dialogue, he was curious to know what there was so much to talk about. [...] My father would come regularly to Chicago and Boston to visit with us and hear me sing. True Russian that he was, he always had a samovar on the table from which he would draw fresh tea — good he thought, for any and all ailments.”

Combined with her published interviews where she declared herself as "Russian" and "Jewish," there is no doubt that she considered herself "Russian-Jewish" so let's please in fairness to her memory put this contentious discussion to the rest. However, the "Polish" side of her birthplace should certainly be highlighted (1) in the lead by saying in the first sentence that she was "Polish-born, Italian-trained, Russian-Jewish dramatic operatic soprano" and (2) in the first footnote saying that "General books and and reference works identify Raisa as either Polish-Jewish or Russian-Jewish." The footnote would also refer to her two interviews (without discussion, just listing them as relevant bibliographic sources) and directing for further details on this and other aspects of her life and career to Mr. Mintzer's book. We will also insert "Bialystok pogroms" with the link to it on Wikipedia in the main text (right after mentioning that she moved to Italy at 14 due to the pogroms).

Please let me know if you agree with this offer of compromise.

Yes, I think you have proven your case pretty well now. The image would be helpful, as a historical record, which Wikipedia is best to be an archive for. On which, now that this matter is closed, see the new section below. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:38, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

@Piotrus: I am so glad that this issue got resolved. I also very much appreciate your comments for improving the Wikipedia article about Raisa. I will work with Mr. Mintzer on trying to improve this page (I already noticed that someone inserted Toscanini's quote that is not entirely correct.) I will get in touch with Mr. Mintzer tomorrow (it's late night here in the states) about her photo as Rachel in La Juive concerning the copyrights. In his book, there is a different picture of her in this role that dates from 1922, the same photographer (Fernand de Gueldre). 1937 was the year of her last performance in this role, not necessarily the date for her picture. I'll see with him if the date of the picture on Wikipedia can also be established and we'll go from there. As for the photo image of the quoted page from her hand-written private manuscript, I meant if you wanted me to upload it here on the talk page as the proof supporting the quote. I don't know how Mr. Mintzer would feel about posting anything from her private papers publicly on Wikimedia Commons, so if you could please kindly advise me if you want this photo image from her private papers (with the quoted paragraph about her father as a "Russian" etc.) uploaded here for the purposes of the proof, then I would need the instructions on how to do it. Either way, please let me know.Wikiuserthea (talk) 03:59, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

@Wikiuserthea: Any media dating to pre-1923 is likely in public domain; see Template:PD-US. Regarding uploading things here, any image displayed on Wikipedia is automatically hosted on Commons and publicly available for everyone else (with some exceptions for a small set of images hosted on English Wikipedia under American-only fair use exception). I think Wikimedia Commons is a great repository for any historical media; we should collect media related to Rosa Raisa in a Commons gallery where they can be properly described, categorized and maintained for posterity. Numerous museums, galleries and private collectors have shared their collections with Wikipedia, see commons:Commons:Partnerships for a sample. I hope you find this idea of interest. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:21, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

@Piotrus: OK. I'll ask Mr. Mintzer how he feel about it and, if he prefers that the photo image of this page should not be for public dissemination, then I'll find the way to upload it through Gmail or something similar for you to personally see it as the proof. His collection of Rosa Raisa photographs and hand-written notes, including her unpublished autobiography (some of which he included in his book), is enormous. He reads this talk page (to follow our discussion) and I'll also alert him about your idea to share something from his collection with Wikipedia. I personally think it's a terrific idea.Wikiuserthea (talk) 04:50, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

@Wikiuserthea: Just to be clear: I don't need proof; I am convinced. The proof may be however of interest to other users, and this collection general, even more so. Btw, I think Mr. Mintzer is from NYC? If so, there is a large chapter of Wikipedia volunteers there (see Wikipedia:GLAM/US/Connect), some attached to NYC universities and museums. They could meet with him in person, and discuss how his Raise media collection could be digitized and ported to Wikipedia (or to be more specific, Wikimedia Commons and perhaps Wikisource sister projects which specialize in archiving rimary sources) at his leisure. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:41, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

@Piotrus: thank you. Mr. Mintzer also appreciated your helpful links for a possible joint project with Wikipedia and he will think about it. Though he didn't tell me this, but I think that some of these latest alterations on Raisa's page made him cautious about the protection issues, especially critical if there is any online collection. But I don't want to speak on his behalf about it and there are other considerations as well. Meanwhile, if any Wikipedia user doubts the authenticity of the page from her manuscript that I quoted here, he would be more than happy to let the Wikipedia volunteers in NYC examine the manuscript that Raisa's family entrusted to him.

The Wikipedia picture of her as Rachel is from 1923 (right on the cusp of copyright protections) and he doesn't know when the photographer died. I personally hope it can be retained on Wikipedia, because Rachel's character is Jewish as was Raisa (alas, Jewish characters are rare in operas). Mr. Mintzer also said that he already thought about expanding the article about Rosa Raisa. I live in a different city (yes, he is located in NYC), but will coordinate efforts with him to make sure his expansions conform to the Wikipedia style (I've been learning about it in the last few days). I will go ahead and make these few changes as per our agreed consensus here, once the protection is lifted, and Mr. Mintzer will do further changes in expanding the article afterwards. Your suggestions on how to go about improving the article are indeed most helpful.Wikiuserthea (talk) 12:15, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Don't hesitate to ask me more. While I cannot help with the content expansion, as I don't have the book in question, I can help with wiki formatting/MoS issues and such. Also, I can help with any Polish sources or links to Polish articles, etc. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:38, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

@EdJohnston: I believe we have reached a consensus here; if you'd lift the protection, I think we can resume constructive editing? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:38, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Unprotected. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 13:20, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Images

I notice that this article sadly doesn't have a Wikimedia Commons category. The File:Rosa Raisa.jpg is public doman, per LoC, but I am concerned that File:Rosa Raisa as Rachel in La Juive.jpg may have to be deleted. According to [9], the opera was staged in 1937, so the photo dates to that year. There is a clear copyright tag defacing the picture, through I cannot decipher the signature. The copyright term is currently 70 years, so unless the photographer has died by 1944, the picture is likely still copyrighted; this may require further investigation per commons:Template:PD-US-not renewed/commons:Commons:Hirtle chart. In here, I want to ping User:Wikiuserthea - perhaps you could locate some public domain images we could use too further illustrate this article? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:38, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Update about the photo of Raisa as Rachel: it was taken in December 1922 as Raisa sang her first Rachel on the New Year's Eve 1922 and this publicity photo was printed on January 1, 1923 to accompany the reviews. We are unaware when the photographer died, so it seems that there is no copyright violation as the photo dates from Dec. 1922 (though printed in the publicity materials on 1/1/1923). Most importantly, the second picture, showing a woman waving her hand, is not Rosa Raisa. Mr. Mintzer identified her as Cyrena Van Gordon, the Chicago Opera mezzo-soprano. Someone uploaded it here probably because it's in public domain and misidentified as Raisa in the Library of Congress digitalized collection. We will inform the LoC about this error in their digital catalogue and replace the picture in the Wikipedia article with the actual photo of Raisa in its place.Wikiuserthea (talk) 23:38, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

Article quality assessment

As long as I have invested some time into reading this article, here are my comments on where this article is with regards to Wikipedia:Assessment: the article falls in the "start" class level (second lowest out of the seven Wikipedia quality classes). For editors interested in improving it, I have the following recommendation: 1) expand lead to one or two paragraphs 2) add inline citations 3) her biography should be split from a section or sections about her influence/legacy/etc. See for example Nellie Melba. With a good source (such as Mintzer's book), one could certainly aim for a WP:GA with just a few hours of effort in expanding and referencing this text. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:38, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

@Piotrus: I have made changes following our reached consensus. I also added footnotes, external links, and further readings. Just to make sure you know that this has nothing to do with the attitude toward Polish or Russian nationalities (but it's only the matter of accuracy and respect for one singer's life), I looked at Wikipedia for the great Polish bass Adam Didur and was surprised not to see more details about him. I'd be happy to improve the article about him as a gesture of my appreciation for the wonderful Polish culture. There is another Polish singer, the legendary Marcella Sembrich and she deserves a much more comprehensive treatment on Wikipedia, but I am not as closely familiar with her life & career as I am with Didur's, whose recordings I cherish.Wikiuserthea (talk) 16:44, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

@Wikiuserthea: I would like to think that Wikipedians are citizens of the world, but it is difficult to raise beyond what we learned in our youth. I personally credit my decade here with being able to improve my stance on such issues.

Anyway, regarding Rosa Raisa, I am glad to see you are improving the article. If you are interested in her, you may want to improve her more. To reach the Wikipedia:Good Article status, you would have to ensure that each sentence is referenced.

Regarding Adamo Didur, see my comment on the talk page about the name. Small world, he died in my hometown (and yet I've never heard of him). Live and learn. In either case, I think it is best you edit whatever you enjoy the most. As you see, there is still a lot left to do on Wikipedia, less than 1% of our articles are high quality (comprehensive, well referenced, well written). On the bright side, it means there is still a lot of fun topics for us to work on! Cheers, and don't hesitate to call me whenever you have a Poland-related question (or a Wikipedia-related one, I do know my way around here quite well). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:02, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

@Piotrus: Mr. Mintzer has significantly expanded the article. I helped him with the markup and upload only, all the content coming from his pen. We didn't change anything in the first three paragraphs (with the footnote) that also contain our reached consensus about Raisa's nationality. All the rest was expanded though. I'll move to Adam Didur soon, but please see my comments about a few bio discrepancies on his talk page and, in this respect, the need for Polish-language sources in his case.Wikiuserthea (talk) 14:32, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

@Wikiuserthea: I believe the two of you have tremendously improved this article; please accept my thanks (I won't say on the part of the Wikipedia volunteer community, as now you are both part of it, too :)). I will improve this article Wikipedia:Assessment rating from start to C. If you would like to improve it further, I could help you get it displayed on Wikipedia's Main Page: it can appear in the Wikipedia:Did You Know section once it reaches the Good Article level, and as the Featured Today's Article once it is at the WP:FA level. Comprehensiveness-wise, I believe the article already meets this criteria. What is needed is to ensure that each paragraph, and when needed, individual sentences, have inline (footnoted) references. I'd assume it would be easy for Mr. Mintzer to provide such references to his book. You may want to look at various Featured Articles to see how this looks in practice. I'd be happy to help with any technical or manual of style issues if you decide to improve this article. I will provide some additional review of copyright regarding images soon. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:21, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

About image copyright

@Wikiuserthea: It took me a while, but I am afraid many images here are, in light of laws, copyright violations. As "crazy" as it may sound, the law forbids us to publish such images for many decades yet. See Commons:Village_pump/Copyright/Archive/2015/05#What_is_the_copyright_for_presumably_American.2C_anonymous.2C_unpublished_photos_from_1923.3F. I don't intend to nominate them for deletion, but I think you and the book author, Mr. Mintzer, should be made aware of this. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:45, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Portrait of Marchisio sisters, 1860s.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:52, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Featured picture scheduled for POTD

Hello! This is to let editors know that File:Rosa Raisa (1917) - Archivio Storico Ricordi FOTO002701 - Restoration.jpg, a featured picture used in this article, has been selected as the English Wikipedia's picture of the day (POTD) for May 30, 2023. A preview of the POTD is displayed below and can be edited at Template:POTD/2023-05-30. For the greater benefit of readers, any potential improvements or maintenance that could benefit the quality of this article should be done before its scheduled appearance on the Main Page. If you have any concerns, please place a message at Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day. Thank you! --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 22:56, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Rosa Raisa (30 May 1893 – 28 September 1963) was a Polish-born and Italian-trained Russian-Jewish dramatic operatic soprano who became a naturalized American. She possessed a voice of remarkable power and was the creator of the title role of Puccini's last opera, Turandot, at La Scala in Milan. This photograph of Raisa, which she autographed in 1917, was taken by Herman Mishkin, a Russian-American photographer who specialized in photographing opera singers.

Photograph credit: Herman Mishkin; restored by Adam Cuerden

Recently featured:

• Mount Everest
• Head of Bhairava
• Eurasian brown bear