Talk:Romantic literature in English

English literature

This article has been created from material in "English literature", see that articles Talk page [1]. Material on American romantic literature added from English literature. Rwood128 (talk) 12:04, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

Wales

User talk:Jerome Kohl, many thanks for your comment. My apologies to Wales, where I've lived and studied. As you note the article is just a babe, and the title will probably be shortly changed to Romantic literature in English, with no art, etc. See the discussion on the English literature Talk page [2]. But who are the Welsh romantics? – you have aroused my curiosity. Rwood128 (talk) 00:55, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

That was what prompted me to tag this article and the corresponding section in the main Romanticism article. In a cursory search, I could find nothing at all on 19th-century Welsh literature from before about 1850, whether in Welsh or in English. It seemed odd that an article such as this (spawned from a literature article) would deliberately include Wales in the title if there was in fact nothing to write about Welsh literature from the period. I cannot think of any Welsh composers from that period, but perhaps there were painters? On the other hand, if you mean to cut back the scope of the article in the way you suggest, this may be a purely academic issue.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 01:19, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

I changed the sub-heading for Romanticism to "England and Wales", because they often go together, presumably because they formed the Kingdom of England, until 1707, and have shared the same legal system for centuries. Perhaps I should have left things alone! Rwood128 (talk) 01:45, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps you had not noticed that the sole mention of Wales in the Romanticism article is a rather disparaging remark about how English landscape painters, wishing to emulate the German Romantics' mist-shrouded alpine scenes, had to make do with Welsh mountain landscapes (presumably because they were all poor as church-mice and could not afford to travel any further abroad. It seemed at last that there might be something about Welsh landscape painters having to make do with English fields and streams when emulating continental artists.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 01:55, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

Not disparaging, just true (and they had never heard of the German Romantic painters). See Napoleonic Wars for the reason, and also consider the time and expense of visiting Italy before railways - trips there generally lasted at least 6 months, whereas one might make a decent trip to Wales from London in less than a month. See Welsh art for more - but all the Romantic painters were English. This should go to Romantic literature in England. Johnbod (talk) 03:16, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

Thank you kindly for the link. It does seem to be a rather dismal picture (if you will pardon the expression) of the state of art in Wales in that period. Naturally it was expensive to visit Italy (and Switzerland), which is I think rather the point in the Romanticism article. Somehow poets of the period seemed to include more people of means, who could therefore afford to see the artworks as well as the landscapes of the continent. Pity they couldn't draw a straight line with a ruler. I agree that this article really should not get mixed up with Wales, and probably should stick to literature.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:24, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

This is becoming complicated. Romantic literature in England, Johnbod, is too narrow in my judgement, and Romantic literature in English better, though the discussion of romanticism in America, should probably be fairly brief; It would also include the whole of Ireland. There is another possibility Romantic literature in Britain, which would of course include Welsh, and the other minority languages of the United Kingdom (and exclude the Republic of Ireland after 1922). See the parallel articles British literature and English literature. I await further advice before changing the title. Rwood128 (talk) 11:41, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

Romantic literature in English seems most sensible to me. There's plenty of material in the article without making it broader. More to the point, that is an article Wikipedia genuinely ought to have - a properly important subject of widespread interest. I don't imagine people want their treatments of literary styles divided narrowly into geographical areas. Dionysodorus (talk) 14:21, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

I can't agree. American Romantic literature begins later, is mostly in prose fiction, unlike in England, and took a rather different track, surprisingly little related to England (and for a long time little known there). A broader article on Romanticism in England (or Britain) would be preferable imo, but who will write it? American literature has what seems a reasonable summary, which I have added as "main" at the big R article. Johnbod (talk) 14:32, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

I see what you mean, but we haven't got a broader article on Romanticism in England (or Britain): we ought to decide what to name the article we actually have, and then reorganise things if and when someone has the time to do something like that. Anyway, I think literary Romanticism deserves to be given its own treatment, because it's an enormous topic, and such a broader article as you suggest would quite likely be unreadably long, or require dividing into shorter articles itself. So I think we would be better off with Romantic literature in English, or perhaps English Romantic literature would work if it isn't too obfuscatory?

As for the American thing, that's easily sorted out: we can just have a few lines on it, and link the reader to the relevant section of the American article. Indeed, it may be useful to have that here, so we can say what you have just very aptly said: that it is quite different from the equivalent movement in England, and therefore is discussed primarily elsewhere. Dionysodorus (talk) 15:00, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

English Romantic literature might be interpreted as just being about literature from England. I support Romantic literature in English as a better choice (and best reflecting its origins). I don't see any obvious objection, above, to that, though I believe Johnbod would prefer a comprehensive article, if someone could be found to write it. I will change the name shortly, and delete the art section.

Re romanticism in America, the main discussion is in the Victorian literature section of English literature (both prose and poetry), but it belongs here (with the original section pruned) – the lede can be revised to explain this. Even in Britain romanticism doesn't end either in 1837 or 1850. Rwood128 (talk) 17:18, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

Actually the discussion of the American romantics in English literature is pretty succinct. Rwood128 (talk) 22:25, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

That all sounds sensible to me. Dionysodorus (talk) 23:04, 7 June 2016 (UTC)