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Archive 1

The term "Rock cut architecture"

I have added an "Original Research" tag to the article, since it is not clear from the text that the term in the title, "Rock cut architecture," is used widely. Evidence is needed, by citing notable sources (academic journals, books) that the term exists. It is not enough to refer to Indian rock cut architecture, which in turn cites "cultural" web sites. Thanks. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:19, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Here for starters: History of Architecture Site Architectural Styles New York Times article 'Rock-cut temple of the many faced God', August 19, 1984 St. Olaf College Art Course Handouts

Sheesh.--Nemonoman 15:44, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I have removed 2 ‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.› [citation needed]. The article provides adequate references and documentation to support the changes. The other ‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.› [citation needed] entries seem to be reasonable requests, if a little persnickety.--Nemonoman 15:50, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the references. I guess what I meant above was that while the term "rock cut" of course is old, is "rock cut architecture" itself a term that is used widely? I would have been happier with a page titled, "Rock cut." From your references above it appears that the term is used, but, in all the references, it is used in the sense of "architecture that is rock cut," rather than "rock cut architecture." In other words, they don't describe what it is that makes "rock cut architecture" distinctive, in terms of process, techniques, and characteristics. Neither does this article (i.e. Rock cut architecture), except at the very end where the issue is addressed thus: "The interiors were usually carved out by starting at what would wind up being the roof and then working downward, for the obvious reason that stones would not be falling on ones head. The spatial imagination and planning that this requires is, in fact, rather formidable." That final paragraph doesn't cite any references and sounds a little POVish.
In other words, as it stands, the article is mostly full of historical examples of architecture that is rock cut, with only one small paragraph at the end of analysis, when in fact, the analysis (and characteristics) should be the main point of the article, with the examples added as a part of the history or to illustrate the analysis. See, for example, Gothic architecture, or Neo-Renaissance architecture. There are other minor problems too. The article doesn't have a neutral descriptive tone: "but one must differentiate natural caves from rock-cut architecture which is man-made and designed along the conventions of architecture itself and thus in every respect a part of architecture and its history" or "Here too, because the structures served as tombs, the interiors were rather perfunctory." Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:42, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi. Thanks. Comments:

  • I started the article with a stub, hoping some smart editors would fill in the blanks. Some have. Thanks to them!!!!.
  • I understand "rock cut architecture" might bug you. "Rock cut", an adjective without SOME noun, is just useless, IMO. Saying "citation needed" on a commonplace term is disingenous. It may be that is a popular term of art rather than a section of the World Architecture Symposium. If there is a better term, I'd be pleased to hear it, but in the meantime, cut it some slack, please?
  • Rock-cut is a form of architecture that is essentially home-grown, exemplified by diverse and few instances, AND DOES NOT CREAT NEW BUT BASICALLY ATTEMPTS TO COPY other architecture, from what I can see. It seems to be some sort of giant and expensive novelty. It don't know of a comparable, except maybe Las Vegas Hotels. Most of the examples, like Las Vegas Hotels, are now tourist traps. I only knew of the Indian caves, and had seen pictures of Petra. To find out that there are numerous examples worldwide is very helpful.
  • Rock-cut architecture, maybe, is defined by its examples, rather than the other way round.

I really appreciate the efforts made on this article to date, and I hope that your ‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.› [citation needed] and original research addtions don't have the effect of discouraging others from improving it for fear that it may not meet some ill-defined ideal. --Nemonoman 18:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

OK. Fair enough. Let me think about the issues you raise. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:27, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Citations

Thanks for the input. I found the stub and began to input the text. I think I have most of the necessary citations or can get them easily enough. Yes rock-cut architecture is definitely a term, but there is some confusion, as I explain at the beginning since many Chinese sources will talk of 'caverns,' which is still a coloqualism and sometimes found in older scholarship. Recent scholarship, has purged itself of these terms in favor of rock-cut architecture, and I think we can go with that.Brosi 23:21, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

beginning

I took the advice and reorganized the text a bit and separeated out the history part. Still sort of new at this.Brosi 23:34, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Great! Look forward to your edits. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:31, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

more to consider

I left a note about this on Brosi's talkpage but here are some things to consider:

  • I put three more pictures on the page, two previously mentioned but Longmen Grottoes was new to the article. Are they okay?
  • Maybe we can add theaters to the typical "program" which includes tombs, temples, and living quarters since there is an amphitheater at Petra.
  • Also I'd like to include something about the Bandelier and Puye Cliff-dwellings, and the Toraja tombs.
  • Maybe we should contrast structures cut into cliffs with ones built with masonry in natural openings such as the Cliff Palace at Mesa Verde.
  • Here are some more illustrations below to consider...
  • Amphitheater in Petra.
    Amphitheater in Petra.
  • Torajan rock cut tombs.
    Torajan rock cut tombs.
  • Bandalier cliff-dwellings showing post holes and caverns
    Bandalier cliff-dwellings showing post holes and caverns

DVD+ R/W 12:46, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Thoses pictures you put on the page are beautiful! Sincerely, Mattisse 13:12, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
thanks Mattisse. DVD+ R/W 14:26, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

more notes

Additional points
Recent applications
  • rock cutting for passages and transportation, ie tunneling
  • Roden Crater? No article for this at present, but I have started something on my desktop.
More books
  • James Fergusson. A History of Architecture in All Countries: From the Earliest Times to the Present Day. Dodd, Mead 1874. Ch VI Rock-Cut Churches - Tchekerman, Inkerman, and Sebastopol - Excavations at Kieghart and Vardzie.
  • Franz von Reber, Joseph Thacher Clarke. History of Ancient Art. Harper & brothers 1882.
  • Aidan Dodson. Egyptian Rock-Cut Tombs. Shire Publications 1999.

DVD+ R/W 14:26, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

photos

Great photo additions! and good pointsBrosi 21:50, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I've compiled some more notes and will post them in a couple of hours. DVD+ R/W 22:41, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
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