Talk:Rochester RazorSharks

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On 16 May 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from Fast Break Fury to Rochester RazorSharks. The result of the discussion was moved.

"Rochester RazorSharks" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Rochester RazorSharks and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 May 9#Rochester RazorSharks until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Regards, SONIC678 15:12, 9 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 16 May 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. It's apparent that the Fast Break Fury is an outright separate successor team to the RazorSharks, and not a rebranding. Since this article mainly pertains to the historical RazorSharks, it will be moved back. However, the Fast Break Fury could instead be brought up in a subsection of this article, as it might be WP:TOOSOON for it to have a separate article. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 03:43, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fast Break Fury → Rochester RazorSharks – This would reverse a page move from November so that a new article can be written about the Fast Break Fury. No reliable sources have been presented (nor found with a search) that indicate that the Fast Break Fury is a renamed version of the Rochester RazorSharks. Powers ^T 18:30, 16 May 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 22:20, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There is a lot of involved editing going on in these pages, so it would be good to get everything sorted out. I fixed some improper cross-namespace moves here recently. It looks like a company called Mooreland Productions bought the rights to the RazorSharks and said they were reviving the franchise. The site of Mooreland Productions notes that they own the Fast Break Fury. The primary source says, "The Fast Break Fury were founded in 2021 by Mooreland Productions.... The Fast Break Fury replace the former Rochester RazorSharks and will return to the Premier Basketball League for the upcoming season." So it does appear to be a rebranding, but it also says they were "founded" in 2021 and "replace" the RazorSharks. Whether they are counted as the same entity or not appears to depend upon whether you are looking at it from the business side or the branding side. Dekimasuよ! 03:17, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Mooreland Production only had a temporary licensing agreement with the RazorSharks. Once the agreement expired, they started Fast Break Fury. As stated above the Fast Break were "founded" in 2021 and the word "replace' was used. Therefore the Fast Break should have their own page and the RazorSharks should have the original page returned as a stand alone and not a redirect. Please help! Maximus2929 (talk) 14:10, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I understand that you may be privy to information that we do not have. However, Wikipedia works on the principle of verifiability and using information from reliable secondary sources. We need to be able to verify the sort of information you are providing here. If a naming agreement simply expired, that does not explain why the same ownership group was able to simply found a new team in the league. Changing the name does not necessarily make the entity itself different. For example, we do not create new articles each time a stadium's name changes due to a new licensing agreement—we move the article instead (if the common name for the stadium changes in reliable secondary sources). Dekimasuよ! 14:48, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for responding. Therefore based on your explanation and the words that were used the case could be made to separate the two team's pages. The words I'm referring to are: "Fast Break Fury were founded" in 2021 and "replace" the RazorSharks. Maximus2929 (talk) 16:18, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also arguing against the rebranding is the apparent case that RazorSharks records have not been inherited by Fast Break Fury. Powers ^T 19:50, 20 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Their own site says "Rochester RazorSharks will become the Fast Break Fury... with their home venue remaining Ediston Tech.... Fast Break Sports on on Lincoln Ave will continue to be the official training facility.... You will see many of the same players from the past two seasons of the RazorSharks... As always, we remain dedicated to creating a championship basketball team" (emphasis added). I tried to find the information on statistics, but couldn't; it does seem clear that they are inheriting the players themselves. This sounds pretty clearly like the same entity as far as primary sources are concerned. Dekimasuよ! 04:56, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I hadn't seen that before. But it seems to be a statement of intent and it's not clear that that actually happened. Aside from that initial press release there's no indication on the site that the transfer actually went through as intended. I mean, the site still says "Coming Fall 2021" for heaven's sake. There's no roster, no schedule, no statistics, no way to buy tickets. It's not even clear they've competed yet; neither the PBL web site nor the ABA web site mentions them anywhere. The RazorSharks web site doesn't redirect to FBF's. The team appears to be completely ephemeral. Without a third-party source, I think the best we could say is that "In 2021 new owners announced an intent to purchase the rights to the RazorSharks franchise, planning to rename the team to the Fast Break Fury, but they have not yet competed under that name." I don't think that's enough to merit a page rename. Powers ^T 15:02, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The rights were in fact purchased, according to the first source I added above. However, putting your comment another way, if this were to be moved back to Rochester RazorSharks, it does not appear that separate notability of Fast Break Fury has been established in reliable sources, so there should not be an article split in either case. Does that sound right? Dekimasuよ! 03:12, 25 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- That seems reasonable. I mostly object to the idea that the relatively long (for minor pro basketball) history of the RazorSharks should be subsumed by a new name that doesn't seem to have even played a game yet. Powers ^T 13:05, 26 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

On balance, I think I am OK with this move if we return the article to the September 2021 version when it was about the RazorSharks and no separate article is created on the Fast Break Fury at this time. As you said, the fact that they are not listed as an active team by the ABA, which they are supposedly a part of now, seems like a red flag. Dekimasuよ! 02:25, 28 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That is correct, the Fast Break have not played a game (I don't think they were ever operational) and the RazorSharks have been mentioned in several articles since without a word or comment about a rebranding. See the following as an example: [1]https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2022/01/26/rochester-royals-were-1951-nba-champions-what-happened-team/9223799002/

I am disappointed to see that someone can change a long history of a team without any substantial evidence and it becomes nearly impossible to change it back to what it really should be. Maximus2929 (talk) 14:21, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see where on the Fast Break Furry site, it says " "Rochester RazorSharks will become the Fast Break Fury". It does say that the Fast Break Furry will REPLACE the RazorSharks, meaning the Fast Break will come to the league as a new team and the RazorSharks will leave. see https://rocfastbreak.com/fury/

Furthermore, the RazorSharks still have their own website: http://www.razorsharks.com/

What else do we need to do to get this resolve were the RazorSharks have their own wiki page without references to the Fast Break? Maximus2929 (talk) 15:48, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It says "Rochester RazorSharks will become the Fast Break Fury" on the main page at [2]. It also says "Mooreland Productions Announces Rebranding: Rochester RazorSharks to become Fast Break Fury" at the top of the press release there. Anyway, someone will close this request after evaluating it and looking for a consensus for or against the proposed move. Please be patient and keep in mind that articles on Wikipedia do not belong to companies or organizations. Dekimasuよ! 15:19, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A new press release was just posted on the Fastbreak website (https://fastbreakfury.com/). Please refer to it when evaluating. Maximus2929 (talk) 19:15, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That does seem pretty clear. @Dekimasu: do you agree? Powers ^T 13:47, 17 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Basketball has been notified of this discussion. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 22:20, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.