Talk:Riccardo Patrese

Incorrect Picture

The following picture is incorrect:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/78/Benetton_B193_Riccardo_Patrese.jpg

This is not a B193. Here is a picture of a B193:

http://www.czechferrari.cz/obrms/frsbenet93.jpg

Compare the nose, mirrors, etc. The B193 had Active Suspension, with corresponding protrusions to fit all of the hydraulics ... this picture is of a passively suspended car! ;-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.108.12.234 (talk) 07:02, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

You're right. After looking through the 1991, 1992 and 1993 editions of Autocourse, I reckon it's actually a 1991 B191 painted in the 1993 livery. I have removed the photo from this article and also add a comment on the photo itself at Commons. Well spotted! DH85868993 (talk) 16:38, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Suggestions of Bias

The sentence regarding the death of Ronnie Peterson suggests that Hunt was to blame for the incident however TV replays suggest at best this was a racing incident and at worst Patrese's fault. Video Replay featuring Slow motion analysis from Jackie Stewart —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thelostlibertine (talk • contribs) 19:53, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

After looking through most avalible footage on Peterson's crash i must say that it is virtually impossible to determine who's to blame for it, so TV replays cant tell this. Hunt was never formaly blamed for the accident, Patrese never officially blamed Hunt for the accident (as far as i know), and to my knowledge none of the involved drivers, officials or nearby spectators ever blamed hunt for the accident. Hunt was blamed due to speculation after However after Patrese was found not guilty in court. I will edit the page to be less biased //W —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.249.101.204 (talk) 15:00, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Firstly, manslaughter trials in auto racing (and road accidents) are not unusual in Italy and are often routine - that needs to be made clear. Currently it is easy to gain the impression that recklessness by Patrese was a suspected factor which triggered the trial.

Secondly, Hunt said Patrese came across in the Arrows and hit his McLaren (which then caused the McLaren to hit the Lotus of Peterson). However the court found conclusive evidence that the Arrows and McLaren in fact did not even touch (and there is suspicion that Hunt initially lied in saying that they did touch as a way to falsely blame Patrese - Hunt changed his court evidence somewhat when confronted with the new evidence).

A case can be made that Hunt moved across to Peterson in avoidance when Patrese cut in (any video shows Patrese cutting in) - the notorious "funnel effect" at Monza was cited as a factor. It was later disputed in the trial whether drivers should cut in (as Patrese had) or be forced to queue behind the car in front when heading to the first chicane. In the trial Arturo Merzario said no driver should have ran wide (though still on the track) to then cut in later, but Patrese claimed it to be a legitimate move since it was a race of course (and indeed watch every year Lap 1 at Monza and see it as the norm how some drivers exploit the initial wide track to make or attempt overtakes but then cut in and risk a collision near the first chicane as the track severely narrows there). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.99.210.174 (talk) 13:37, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

starts

The succession box lists most F1 entries, what about starts? 70.29.213.241 (talk) 07:06, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

entries

The succession box says "entries", but it lists two predecessors, which is wrong, since one has more entries that the other, they just have the same number of starts. 70.29.213.241 (talk) 07:08, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Replacing Pryce

Patrese didn't replace Tom Pryce in 1977, he came into Shadow a few races later and replaced Renzo Zorzi who had had Financial problem. Alan Jones had replaced Tom Pryce from US West onwards. I will change the detail therefore of how he ended up in the Shadow team. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.165.210 (talk) 10:19, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Lack of personal life information

There is no information about Patrese's personal life, at all. Also, he is listed in the Categories as a Jewish-Italian but there's no info on that either. -The Gnome (talk) 06:01, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

A reference is provided for his Jewishness. And there are plenty of sources available to confirm his Italian-ness (although I recognise that none is specifically provided in the article). DH85868993 (talk) 12:21, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Jewishness

Per some recent edits and reverts regarding this, I strongly question the reliability of the single source provided, namely Day by Day in Jewish Sports History. What are the credentials of that book? It fleetingly mentions Patrese once, as a race winner, but without any other background pertaining to his supposed Jewishness. If we're going to state something as profound on WP as part of BLP, it absolutely should be supported with a more reliable source than just some list-orientated book which happens to name-drop him. After all, the BLP article clearly states: "We must get the article right. Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources." I think we are potentially putting forth incorrect information, and that this book is not a high-quality source. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 13:26, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

This text and supporting ref was deleted with the assertion that he is Catholic. Zero evidence of RS support for that notion was supplied. It appears to simply be an editor's personal opinion. Or what we call Original Research. Original Research does not trump what an RS states. No appropriate reason was proferred to delete RS-supported text, or the ref itself. If you have RS support for your belief that he is Catholic, please supply it. Otherwise, see wp:rs. And wp:or. You can't delete what an RS book says, on the basis of your personal unsupported non-RS belief. The RS book does not need to supply any more that it supplies. And one RS book is sufficient. This book is published by Ktav Publishing House, a publisher of children's books and young adult books, award-winning, been publishing many books and for decades. And more than you have supplied to support your contrary contention that he is Catholic. Plus, the author is a sports editor at The Express-Times of Easton, Pa.[4] The book itself has been covered by RSs. If you have such RS support, please share it and we can edit the article in accord with it. I can understand that the SPA will not be familiar with RS and OR, but imagine that will be more familiar to MAC. Epeefleche (talk) 22:48, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Please refer to the Wikiedia guideline WP:BLPCAT, which states:

"Categories regarding religious beliefs or sexual orientation should not be used unless the subject has publicly self-identified with the belief or orientation in question, and the subject's beliefs or sexual orientation are relevant to their public life or notability, according to reliable published sources...

These principles apply equally to lists, navigation templates, and statements (referring to living persons within any Wikipedia page) that are based on religious beliefs or sexual orientation or suggest that any living person has a poor reputation."

Sparkie82 (t•c) 23:49, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

• This is a subject that has been discussed at WP many times. Sometimes people unfamiliar with the facts jump to that conclusion initially. The problem is that sometimes people don't understand the background here, and the importance of the word "belief" in the above.

The Jews are an ethnicity and a nation, not just a religion, and correspondingly saying they are Jewish does not in any way state that they have any belief whatsoever -- they may even be Jewish agnostics. See the List of Jewish atheists and agnostics. The Wikipedia entry for "Jew" indicates, inter alia, that Jews "also known as the Jewish people, are an ethnoreligious group ... The Jewish ethnicity, nationality and religion are strongly interrelated, as Judaism is the traditional faith of the Jewish nation."

Other religions are in the "normal case" distinct from the nation. In other words, there was not a Protestant, or Buddhist, or Christian, or Hindu, or Aethiest nation per se. They are not an "ethnicity" or a "people" or a "nation." Jews, peculiarly, are not just a religion. They are also a nation. Dispersed (largely) for a couple of thousand years. And we don't require more than one cite to an RS, as the one here, to reflect ethnicity or nationhood. So you have to understand, as discussed above, that this is not a matter of reflecting his "belief" at all.

Epeefleche (talk) 07:12, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

For DRN reference, the continued discussion of this topic at RS:N has hit a dead end. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 20:36, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

I wouldn't have said that; Collect & Paul B steered the discussion in the right direction, IMO. I'd just earlier this evening looked at an unrelated reliable source that was clearly unreliable regarding that one entry, so even if we accept Day by Day in Jewish Sports History is a reliable source, we don't know (a) if they made a mistake (given that it's not reported anywhere else) or (b) whether they're applying a one-drop rule. Bromley86 (talk) 21:03, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

I also wouldn't have said it, but I didn't anticipate the response from User:Collect and User:Paul B in time. The fast pace of WP sometimes leaves me in the dust. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 21:07, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Just to tie this one off, the three editors (the two above and GRuban) that have commented on the RSN all believe that the Day by Day in Jewish Sports History source is insufficient to back the claim that RP is Jewish. They've convinced me, for what that's worth. Bromley86 (talk) 07:41, 28 October 2014 (UTC)