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Talk:Rehbar (rocket family)

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Problems with the Rehbar-I web page

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First there is the name. The page starts with "Rehbar was series of sounding rocket launches into the upper atmosphere and the edge of space." It went on to describe how some 200 Rehbar launches were made "between 1962 and 1972."

Is this an article about the Rehbar series of launches or just the Rehbar-1?

As far as I can tell there were nowhere near "200" launches in the Rehbar series. Only Rehbars 1, 2, 21 and 22 used the Nike-Cajun rocket. Rehbars 3,4,5,6, and 7 used the Judy-Dart. Rehhbars 15-20 and 23-24 were Centaures. One source shows Rehbar 3-7 as being Judy-Darts. Another shows Judy-Dart launches on the same dates The same source shows only 2 launches between the last identified in the other source between the launch identified in the other as Rehbar-7 and the launch listed as Rehbar-15. What became of Rehbars 8-14? One source lists Rehbar-3 as a Judy-Dart launched on 18 March 1964. The second source lists that launch, claims it was a Judt-Dart, but only has the comment "SUPARCO Aeronomy mission.". A third source shows that Judy-Dart listed, but has an entry for 16 May 1963 and says that launch as a Nike-Cajun and adds "Rehbar 3?". The other two sources make no mention of the 16 May 1963 flight. The third source lists other launches as Rehbar flights one on 9 April suggests "Rehbar 4?" the other, on 30 November 1964 suggests "Rehbar 5". The first source lists Rehbar 5 as a Judy-dart fired on 26 January 1966 and the second source lists that shot as a Judy-Dart but describes it as "SUPARCO 20 / 66 Aeronomy mission." The first and third sources are in total disagreement about Rehbar 6 and 7 - they don't even agree on the year the flights were flown. The third source lists Rehbar 8-14 as being between 30 April 1965 and 29 November 1967. The first and second sources list Rehbar 15 as a Centaure on 3 May 1967. For a change the third source agrees! From Rehbar 16 to Rehbar 24 all three agree. Source #1 lists no rocket launches after 28 April 1972. The second source list a flight on that date but reports a different rocket used for a different mission. The third source lists three shots in 1973 (all Skuas). After that nothing until January 1999. The second source has a gap between April 1972 and October 1989. It lists no sounding rockets after 1972. The third source lists no sounding rocket launches after April 1973.

Its impossible to say how many sounding rockets have been launched by Pakistan. All three sources agree that there were only 24 flights in the Rehbar series. It appears there were 11 flights in the Rehnuma series and three in the Shahpar series. All sources list many more sounding rocket launches in the years for which data is available. Perhaps the total might be something like 200 total.

Unless the original author of this article supplies his sources and/or far more data for the years after Spring 1973 becomes available, we are not able to tell the story of Pakistani sounding rockets.

Anyone want to help?

Mark Lincoln (talk) 20:24, 12 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Deletion of reference to the Hatf-1 tactical ballistic missile.

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The Hatf-1 missile was designed in the mid-1980s over a decade after the last Rehbar launch. It was designed as a mobile bombardment weapon (see: http://missilethreat.com/missiles/haft-1/ ).

It is true that the Hatf-1 was developed by the Space and Upper Atmosphere Research Commission but there is no design connection with either the Nike-Cajun, Judy-Dart or Centaure sounding rockets. The post hoc, ergo propter hoc argument that SUPARCO first operated the Rehbar and thus it led to the Hatf is specious.

Some sources suggest that technology from the French Eridan sounding rocket was used in development of the Haft-1 and Haft-2 missiles (see: http://fas.org/nuke/guide/pakistan/missile/hatf-2.htm ) Others assert that the technology came from the French Dauphin rocket, sometimes both (see: http://isssp.in/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/An-Assessment-of-Pakistans-Ballistic-Missile-Programme.pdf page 1).

Pakistani sources agree to the French connection (see http://defence.pk/threads/pakistani-ballistic-missiles-indigenous-content-development.130819/ ). Please note that none of the sources claim that the Nike-Cajun, Judy-Dart or Centaure flown in the Rehbar program were sources of the technology used in the Haft-1 and Haft-2 rockets.

The assertion that the cooperation between SUPARCO and NASA provided training for Pakistani scientists and technicians is as close to the claim that Rehbar was the source of Pakistani missile development as may be made (see: http://www.wisconsinproject.org/countries/pakistan/hatf.html ).

Thus I have removed the line asserting that the Rehbat program led to the Haft -1 missile. I realize this may be a controversial action. I welcome, and will entertain, any reasoned disagreement.

Mark Lincoln (talk) 22:55, 12 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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