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Archive 1Archive 2

Older discussions

I think more information is required in the above subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lackquer (talk • contribs) 10:02, 3 April 2003 (UTC)

> It is also the most badass of panda species Badass? Is this a scientific term? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.38.84.230 (talk) 15:07, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I think this article is now good enough to be a featured article. How do we repetition? Valich 05:56, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps some sort of discussion should be held about this capitalization. Some suggestions: make it so article titles are not case sensitive! What good does it do that there could be one page on the "Red Panda" and one page on the "Red panda"? And, as far as it goes, it seems to me that it would spare a lot of agony if we simply capitalized all article titles as though they are, you know, titles. Capitalize all major words, don't capitalize prepositions and articles. That way there won't have to be arguments over these things. john 04:23 2 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Even if all titles are rendered in caps, for purposes of linking it's useful to distinguish them (see Blackberry and BlackBerry for an example).
In this case, we'd still have to argue over whether to capitalize them in running text -- the capitalisers argue for their position because it should be "Red Panda" everywhere in their opinion.

See Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (fauna) for more. (If you respond here, then I at least probably won't see it.) -- Toby Bartels 19:05 8 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Extinction Status

The Red Panda is almost extinct in China because of housing development and illegal hunting. HoHung Min, a chinese mother said, "...We can't let this happen to our pandas...There are many other places to build homes, and their coats are not necessary, they are just wanted by many...If we don't do something, the entire population will die..." A construction worker who wishes to remain annonymous claims, "...If the pandas must be sacrificed, it is a small price to pay for good housing...What's more important, the animals, or us?..." Content from the red panda. Charles Matthews 07:54, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Unfortunately we have no reliable estimates on its population size but it is now listed as an "endangered species." Valich 06:15, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Again to close the loop. It's true that we have no reliable estimates. However, the official IUCN classification (which is what the template taxoboxes use) is "Vulnerable" at this time. Yesterday I removed "endangered species" from the narrative, leaving only the offivial designation of "Vulnerable." Today I am removing "The Red Panda is listed by the IUCN as Vulnerable" from the narrative to avoid update issues, shince this information is covered now in the taxobox. I just updated the IUCN template in the taxobox yesterday to the new IUCN 2009.1 template.Donlammers (talk) 12:45, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I have finished updating taxoboxes to "vulnerable" in all languages where is was incorrectly listed in the taxobox, and added status to a couple of taxoboxes where the English syntax works in the template (no, I don't speak that many languages). Note that current estimates of population (2009) seem to be on the order of 10,000 individuals in the wild.Donlammers (talk) 12:45, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Jesus loves this little Animal?

Why does it say Jesus Loves this little Animal above the gallery and why can't I find it to remove it? At the least I feel a source is owed, no? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.255.41.117 (talk) 05:53, 5 February 2007 (UTC).

Never mind. I got rid of it.

Jesus loves all little animals (except for the abomination, Zedonks) so it's really not necessary to mention it in every article. --JayHenry 03:20, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Don't dis the zedonks! 66.63.86.156 (talk) 12:31, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Picture removed in Jesus edit?

I noticed that a cute picture I'd seen previously was missing, and traceds it to the Jesus Edit. Is there a reason that this picture wasn't restored afterwards?

Assuming that the contributor isn't lying about its status (something I've seen quite frequently), it's a cute picture, if a bit fuzzy.

Any rate, no big issue, but it is cute. --71.192.117.127 22:10, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

New Wikiproject

I wanted to make a wikiproject about ferrets and weasels but it became to small a range so i have made a bigger wikiprojects including all animals in the Musteloidea super family which include both ferrets and weasels and much similar animals. Support would be appreceated.

This new wikipedia project includes the red panda

you can find it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Proposals#Weasels

i also made a little template for the project,

This article is within the scope of the Weasel WikiProject, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of articles relating to Ferrets, Weasels, and other Weasel like friends. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.

I hope you like it.

This wikiproject is for the superfamily of Musteloidea which currently and surprisingly does not have an article yet. This superfamily includes ferrets and weasels and all of our other furry little weasel like friends. Please put your name on it so this article could have it's very own wikiproject outside of wikiproject animals.

Teh Ferret 19:55, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism

Check under "Common names" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.150.95.75 (talk) 17:09, 2 May 2007 (UTC).

This fact is mentioned twice in the opening paragraph...

I've removed the 2nd mention of that size comparison. SGGH speak! 18:31, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I've also fact-tagged just a couple of things that need to have in-line citations :) SGGH speak! 18:34, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Nehru loved them

Interesting, this. The man sure had some good taste.

"Quite a lot of those beautiful animals, the red panda, come from Nepal each year to Calcutta for export to foreign zoos... they are a favorite pet of India's Prime Minister, Jawaharlal Nehru."

Source -- Stormwatch (talk) 09:11, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

My girlfriend would whorship me if I would get her one! Anybody knows any cold-hearted professional poacher from Eastern Asia to smuggle those cutties in the black market? would love to have a deal with him ^^ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.118.191.48 (talk) 13:54, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Man, that's crazy talk. Red pandas are endangered animals. Get your girl a husky, they're easy (and LEGAL!) to get, very friendly, and just a little bit less disturbingly cute! - Stormwatch (talk) 03:48, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Copy vio tag

User:128.111.207.66 placed a copyrite violation tag on the article. The editor did not specify where they claim the material was copied from. It was placed on a section after another IP editor placed some material that appears to have been copied from somewhere. I reverted all the edits that accomplished this. A new name 2008 (talk) 00:05, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Knoxville Zoo

The edit on the info on the Knoxville Zoo was proper - the material was pretty much a direct quote of the zoo's site. They did win a "Bean" award as stated though - 1998: Knoxville Zoo Long-term Propagation and Contributory Program for the Red Panda - http://www.aza.org/HonorsAwards/BeanHistoryList/index.html

If someone wants to add this.

sherpajohn (talk) 09:37, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

References

Hi, pals! Passing by just to say that many links at reference section got expired. I think somebody should do some clean up there Mizunoryu 大熊猫❤小熊猫 (talk) 13:00, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I believe I hve cleanede gthese all up now.Donlammers (talk) 04:57, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

The case of stupid nationalism...

I could not find a single credible wildlife agency saying that Pakistan is included in the range of this animal. I'm convinced that Pakistan was added by some nationalistic person from that country. This is also the case of several other similar articles. I'm fed up of this silly promotion of Pakistan. --Nosedown (talk) 07:23, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I just reverted another case of someone claiming Pakistan. Whether or not this is nationalism, nobody has come up with any credible sources for this assertion. I will keep reverting these until someone does. Donlammers (talk) 17:49, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Living wild in Scotland, worth a mention?

Is it perhaps worth a mention (in the Captivity section perhaps) that a Red Panda and cub escaped from captivity in South West Scotland and that the cub survived 18 months in the wild before meeting death on a road.[1] [2] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.33.85.33 (talk) 00:28, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

If it survived in an area that was bamboo-free, this might be interesting in terms of its diet. Unfortunately, bamboo grows in a lot of different places, and there have to be some groves not too far away to supply the zoo. There are implications in what I've read so far that the Red panda will eat a much larger variety in captivity, and this could be worked into the diet section. However, the first article has the species classification wrong (and spends too many words on it), so I'm not inclined to reference it if that can be avoided. I don't consider it all that interesting in and of itself that it can forage (which it obviously did to survive 18 months). After all, look at how it's been classified in the past -- with Racoons and Bears. Both are very good foragers, even near and in populated areas.Donlammers (talk) 14:37, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Red panda/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

I think it is an A or at least a GA. It is relevent, true and well writenAlexq4 (talk) 04:17, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Last edited at 01:48, 1 January 2012 (UTC). Substituted at 21:58, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Confusing

This line near the beginning: "and a waddling gait due to its shorter front legs, being slightly larger than a domestic cat". Are its front legs shorter than its rear legs, but larger than a domestic cats legs? Odd. Or, its front legs shorter than its rear legs. Also, it's larger than a domestic cat. How much larger? Flight Risk (talk) 03:59, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

There should be more information about the current population of red pandas and not only their current endangerment, but also how this trend has progressed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sammysalmon (talk • contribs) 16:37, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Pristinailurus

Why does the well-known fossil ailurid Pristinailurus redirect here when it had (rightfully) its own page in the past? These taxa differ at a generic level; redirecting Pristinailurus to Ailurus makes as much sense as redirecting Pan to Homo. The fossil genus is known from fairly complete remains and differs significantly in terms of size, dentition, and geographic origin. It is at least as distinct and notable an organism as any of thousands of fossil genera that Wikipedia has granted their own page.70.122.86.238 (talk) 20:15, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, why? It's no less notable than any other fossil mammal. I though page deletions had to be justified, but how would you justify removing a page when it's one of thousands that have been otherwise deemed notable? Sumanuil (talk) 03:28, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Successes

I would like to remove the "Successes in red panda breeding list." This was admittedly the reason I started working on this article (someone had listed twins, and my zoo had just had triplets), but not only can't we keep such a list updated, but it is really the job of the studbook to do so, not an encyclopedia article. Now someone has listed a single birth, which I do not believe is notable at all. I would replace the list with something like "There have been triplet(citations) and even quaduplet(citation) births in captivity." This would explicitly limit it to the larger litters. The last item on list (release back to the wild) would just be another sentence. Donlammers (talk) 10:06, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree with your reasoning about this. Per WP:LISTS another reason to remove it would be that, given time, it just becomes a long list of births from all over the world. Some not really that notable in the long run. Limiting it to larger litters is a good idea. Conversely, if others want to keep it, we could split it off into its own article with a link from this main one. MarnetteD | Talk 14:50, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

First Known Written Record

According to http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Publications/ZooGoer/1992/2/redpandasfirecat.cfm the first known written record is in a 13th century Chinese scroll. Does anyone have any more information on this? Innocenceisdeath (talk) 13:18, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't, and not through lack of trying. Notice that he does not state his source, nor does he even mention what document this was in. I found one reference elsewhere to some scroll that allegedly showed a "picture," but again with no further information. I decided at the time to leave the reference, but if you think this is not good enough documentation we can rewrite that section. Donlammers (talk) 16:27, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
I would be interested in seeing this other reference if you still know where it is. Innocenceisdeath (talk) 11:24, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
I thought that I saw a really bad photo of a "scroll" somewhere in my original searches. I can't find it now. Everything I have found seems to point back to the article in question (most often a direct copy) Or to a 1983 article by the same writer (Roberts, M.: The red panda: its history and fragile hold on the future. Your Cincinnati Zoo News Spring/Summer 1983, pp. 1-5.). So far I have not been able to find a copy of the 1983 article. Donlammers (talk) 02:51, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
Great, I shall do my best to hunt down this publication. I've found another reference to it that contains more information. I shall update the Wikipedia article accordingly.Innocenceisdeath (talk) 17:13, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
@Donlammers: I found the original paper of Roberts 1983. He said he found the painting in a book about Chinese art, without mentioning the title of the book. I would like to find the book and the exact painting, if possible.Tony9664 (talk) 17:39, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

There's a featured picture of this species that is currently not used in the body of the article. Unfortunately, the delisting process of FPs currently does not notify related articles and wikiprojects to sufficient extent to allow sensible remedies to be made, so its delist nomination at Featured Picture Candidates is now somewhat advanced. Preliminary opinions suggest that it is still the best image of the species on image quality grounds, and I'm confident it would be kept as an FP if found a reasonably prominent and useful place in this article. Feel free to contact me or go to its nomination on the FPC page if you have any questions or would like to express an opinion on the nomination. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 17:23, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

link to nomination

Caps in the article

What is the current feeling about the capitalisation of red panda throughout the article? It has just been changed from 'red panda' to 'Red panda'. I feel that it shouldn't receive any special capitalisation when merely mentioned throughout the article. But if the consensus is otherwise then I won't change it back.Innocenceisdeath (talk) 00:58, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I almost always favor less capitalization where there is a choice. I think it should be "Red panda" in the title and the top of the infobox, but in running text it should be "red panda." Donlammers (talk) 02:32, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
I concur with Innocenceisdeath and Donlammers in the idea that "red" should only be capitalized in the title and infobox. One of the limitations of wikipedia's programming code is that a capital letter is required at for an article title. That causes the occasional anomaly error as in the page for Lindsay Anderson's film if... which has to have a capital "I" to exist as an article but doesn't need one otherwise. MarnetteD | Talk 02:52, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

caps creeping back in

having read the discussions of recent years, re: cap'ing red panda or not, I do understand that the caps creep back in. Though I realize that even among zoologists and authors of scientific articles, this issue has not been resolved — some cap Red throughout, some don't, I favor cap'ing the name of a species, i.e. using Red panda, because red is not an adjective, but part of a name. Right now, it looks like the use of Red Panda exceeds the use of red panda in the article's sections. However, no matter what the consensus is, let's make it consistent throughout the article. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 17:49, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't agree about "Red panda". If the name is capitalized, it should be "Red Panda" (yes, I know this is often an emotional argument). However, I do agree that we need to be consistent. I made two bad assumptions when the article was moved from "Red Panda" to "Red panda." I assumed that the person making the move had gone through and made all "Red Panda" => "Red panda." Then I assumed that subsequent editors also went through the entire article for "Red panda" => "red panda". Neither was true, of course. I just went through the entire article and found "Red Panda," "Red panda," and "red panda" all in use. I'm not sure I got everything correct. However, my goal was to leave case alone when it was in article titles and quotes, use "Red panda" at the start of sentences, and use "red panda" in running text. If you spot inconsistencies, please feel free to fix them. Donlammers (talk) 20:07, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Archiving

I have archived some of the threads, and collapsed the three big sections that we seem to come back to frequently. These should probably somehow be on separate pages, but I haven't figured out the best way to handle that yet. Hopefully nobody objects. Donlammers (talk) 21:49, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

As a suggestion please take a look at what we did on the Talk:Oscar Wilde page archive. We took one specific archive and named it for the discussions that came up the most often. You don't necessarily need to date it the way someone did there (I created it without dates to allow future archiving of the same subject but that was changed somewhere along the line.) As I say this is just one suggestion and other ideas are welcome. MarnetteD | Talk 23:26, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
Thanks to MarnetteD for the suggestion. I did a bit of a variation on the Oscar Wilde article and kept the unnumbered archives separate from the numbered archives. I hope nobody objects. Remember that if you are starting a new thread on any of these discussions, it should be on the main talk page, and will be moved into the appropriate archive when it's been concluded. I am not setting up any auto-archiving at this time because some discussions take a while and there isn't enough activity that I can't keep up now that I have the system set up. Donlammers (talk) 13:01, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Evolutionary History

"The Red Panda did not evolve, but was created on day six of creation with all other land animals." Seriously? If you're going to include this segment, why fill it with just this? Someone was being cute, also known as being a jackass. -- (xidoraven)99.71.191.229 (talk) 13:57, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Etymology

The last sentence in the statement

There is no conclusive source for the origin of the anglicized word "panda." .. The words are usually claimed to be from Nepali language. However, none of these words appear in modern Nepali-English dictionaries, and there are no other primary sources to substantiate these conflicting claims.

is not convincing. When Hardwicke encountered red pandas in the mid-hills of Nepal 190 years ago, the local people did not speak the same Nepali as of today, and most likely not even Nepali, but the language of their ethnic group — be it Tamang, Gurung, Rai or Limbu or local dialects thereof that still today vary from one valley to the next. However, the Nepali word pandā or paṇḍā, meaning clever, skilful, manly or a similarly pronounced one could as well have been used by local people at the time to describe the climbing and other abilities of red pandas. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 21:25, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the sentence shown is not convincing, for the very reasons that BhagyaMani speculates. However, that is just speculation. Unfortunately, Hardwicke seems to have wanted to name it "Wah," and (at least in documents I've seen) does not claim anything about the origin of the word "Panda". I cannot speak to the "Nepali word "panda", as I don't speak Nepali and did not see any such word in modern dictionaries. If you have sources that will substantiate your claims, then we should change the conclusion and cite it properly. However, your assertions by themselves (including the claimed meaning of the word pandā or paṇḍā) are no more valid than anyone else's unless they can be cited from reliable sources. If you can cite it, go for it! -- I never found the evidence, but then I'm not a linguist, let alone an expert on the area. Donlammers (talk) 22:11, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Have a look at this source : for paṇḍā But even if this source is cited, it still remains questionable whether this is a conclusive source for the origin of the anglicized word "panda", and is as much speculation as stating that there is none, and as much as stating that the name is anglicized, keeping in mind that Cuvier was French. Would love to read his original description to see whether he gives an explanation the way Schreber did when citing local names of species he described. Alas, couldn't yet find a digitized version of his text. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 01:27, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

"as much as stating that the name is anglicized": good point -- I eliminated this. I looked for Cuvier's description as well, and could not find it (this does not mean it doesn't exist -- only that my search skills aren't up to finding it). None of the articles I saw lists "pandā" as the word from which "panda" was derived (though it seems to make more sense than the other speculations). Unfortunately, I agree that this probably can't be called "conclusive", though we could list it as another possibility. It would sure be nice if one of the "experts" had made that particular speculation. Donlammers (talk) 02:49, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Having read Hardwicke's text, I decided to revise and cut this part re: origin of word panda:

The words are usually claimed to be from Nepali language. However, none of these words appear in modern Nepali-English dictionaries, and there are no other primary sources to substantiate these conflicting claims.[1][2]
  1. ^ "Nepali-English Dictionary" (PDF). Retrieved 2009-09-23. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |authors= ignored (help)
  2. ^ "A Comparative and Etymological Dictionary or the Nepali Language (online version)". Retrieved 2009-09-23.

This at least for the time being, because this is still speculation. There are many more languages spoken in the Himalayas, in particular in the hills, some of which have little in common with Nepali, see also Himalayan Languages Project. Interesting, however, is that Hardwicke refers to the local name Chitwa, which is the Nepali word for leopard, but can also mean a spotted cat such as clouded leopard. But since he does not refer to a local name that implies eater of bamboo, I keep on wondering why Cuvier came to use the name panda, and who (from where) supplied him with the specimen he described. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 17:02, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, most claims I saw did say "Nepali", not "himalayan" (which is one reason I never expanded the search). In any case, the origin is confused, and I have not found anything saying why Cuvier called it panda. I suspect the information about the specimen would be explicit in his text, which I have not seen yet. The only copies I've found in library catalogs are thousands of miles away from me, and I have not found a digitized copy. Donlammers (talk) 17:16, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I posted a note in the French red panda article talk page. Lets wait and see whether anyone replies. So far I have found out that it was Alfred Duvaucel who had sent him a specimen from the mountains north of India — a fact that at least indicates that Duvaucel did not necessarily obtain it from Nepal. He spent some time around Calcutta, but at the time it was a long long way to reach the Nepali mid-hills from there. So it's likely, that he received it from some place closer by and more easily accessible such as Darjeeling or Sikkim. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 19:47, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I have a digital copy of Cuvier's text. I shall upload it as soon as I can. I can confirm that yes Alfred Duvaucel sent him the specimen, the text does not say that the red panda came from the mountains north of India, just that it is of East Indian decent. If you have another text that states this though I would love to see it. Cuvier's description of the red panda is quite scientific for the most part, but at the end of the text he says I propose the generic name for this Panda one of Ailurus, because of its external resemblance with the Cat, and the specific name of fulgens, because of its brilliant colors. I will get provide you with the full text shortly. Innocenceisdeath (talk) 10:23, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Way to go! I'm glad someone is better at finding this stuff than I am. Donlammers (talk) 13:15, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

How great ! Am looking forward to read it as well. For the statement "from the mountains north of India" — read what his brother Georges Cuvier has published in 1829: book preview page 138: Le Panda éclatant. I referenced this in the article yesterday. "of East Indian descent" is not contradictory to "from the mountains north of India". Today, there are at least 8 protected areas in India's northeast with red panda populations. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 14:09, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Here it is Histoire Naturelle des Mammifères I hope this is good enough. Apologies for not being able to upload the original scans (which include a great illustration), but the person who made the scans is claiming copyright over them and won't let me publish them without a hefty fee. Personally, after reading through UK copyright law briefly, I don't believe their claims can be substantiated. However, until I can be certain I do not want to take this risk. The scans are of a very high quality too; special apparatus had to be used to capture them as the book is so large. I hope this is adequate, I'll try and dig out a page reference later. Innocenceisdeath (talk) 20:47, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. This confirms the reasoning for the taxonomic name, but unfortunately doesn't say anything about where "panda" came from. I think the fact that he calls it "panda" without question (unless I'm missing something from the Google-translated French) implies that the animal was given to him as "panda" by A. Duvaucel. This means that the specimen was probably presented to Duvaucel as "panda" (or something similar). Unfortunately, since the exact origin of the specimen and the number of people who handled it are unknown, this leaves us with a pretty big gap -- we don't know how many "translations" there were between the actual source of the specimen and its receipt by Duvaucel. Sorry, I'm back to speculating again. Donlammers (talk) 11:13, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Wow - how wonderful that this is resurrected! Although we still don't know the origin of the word "panda" we know that

  • the fur, jaws and paws of the specimen were not from Nepal, which implies that the word is not exactly a Nepali word, but with high probability of a different Himalayan language;
  • Cuvier giving a detailed account about the teeth described it as a typical carnivore, which means he didn't have a clue about the panda's dietary habits as a bamboo eater.

Therefore, I still doubt that the name is reminiscent of bamboo, which in both Hindi and Nepali is "baans" (see in Hindi ; see in Nepali scroll a bit down), in both languages pronounced as a nasal. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 18:51, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Ah, but did Cuvier understand these other languages? If not, then if Donlammers is correct in that he was just told it was called Panda when it was presented to him, then the fact that the name gave implication to its dietary habits in another language wouldn't affect his reasoning regarding the teeth. So the fact that Cuvier didn't know about its dietary habits from the name may not help. However, I do also have doubts that the name stems from bamboo. There is just a lot of speculation at the moment. Your reasoning that it may stem from a different Himalayan language is good though and should definitely be investigated. I am working on uploading that actual scans. I am going to talk to someone regarding the matter tomorrow, hopefully they can help clear things up. Innocenceisdeath (talk) 19:30, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
Good point ! Cuvier certainly did not understand any of the Himalayan languages. But since I enjoy this conversation, I have one more speculation to add : in Nepali language, there is a rarely used word for "little bear" or "bear cub" pauna. Given the similarities of Indo-Aryan languages, I think it very likely that the person who brought the animal to Duvaucel used a similar pronounced word in his native language meaning "small bear". The big bear of course is bhalu, i.e. the sloth and Asian black bear. Unfortunately, there are still many Himalayan languages that are not very well documented. Anyway : am looking forward to more "diggings" -- BhagyaMani (talk) 20:00, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Somewhere along the line my original sense has gotten messed up about "Firefox". There are a bunch of English sources that claim that Firefox is an English trtanslation. However, there is no evidence to support this that I could find. The Chinese do NOT call it firefox, they call it little cat bear. This misrepresentation is all over the place, including in several zoos I have visited. Th original point was that although we in the English world claim this (and there are plenty of citations), we seem to have forgotten to tell the Chinese (as evidenced by the dictionaries). I have found no evidence whatsoever that the Chinese call the animal "Firefox". I love the name, but I think this is urban myth, and my original paragraph stated that. Donlammers (talk) 00:03, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Your findings about the Chinese word meaning "little cat bear" or "bear cat" concord with its name in the few Himalayan languages I came across, which refer to the species as a kind of bear rather than a fox. Ergo, all these various ethnic groups of the Himalayas have a similar perception of the species. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 13:38, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

What is our earliest current source for the name "firefox"? I have a feeling that the introduction of the web browser has altered the spelling, and that originally it would have been spelt "fire fox", rather than "firefox". Innocenceisdeath (talk) 18:20, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

A better question would be, how many sources before the browser's release in 2004 were spelt "firefox" and how many were spelt "fire fox". None of the other names it is given that are comprised of two words are spelt without a space. Innocenceisdeath (talk) 23:23, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
All of the sources in the article show it as "firefox." The only one I can easily verify as being "before the browser" is the IUCN "Racoons and Their Relatives" pamphlet, which I have a copy of. It was published in 1995 (the browser came out in 2004), and spells it "firefox." The other refs are web sites, so they could have easily changed since the browser was introduced (though some of them may not have been around yet then). In 1992, Roberts (citation #25) calls it the "Fire Cat" (two words), but only in the title, and without trying to attribute it. The Firefox (disambiguation) page on WP (which I'd never looked at before) states it as fact that it's from Chinese, and can also mean "Red Fox" (this is also not supported by the dictionaries I found). So 1995 is the earliest I have found reference to the name so far, and it's a single word. Donlammers (talk) 02:38, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Can anyone find a decent source for the translation of the Nepali word panjā? Innocenceisdeath (talk) 19:06, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

I have a reference now, and have updated the article, but it would still be good to cite another source too. Innocenceisdeath (talk) 19:50, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
I don't doubt your source, but doubt that the word Nigálya originates from a Nepali word meaning bamboo. In Nepali language, the word for bamboo is बाँस् bã̄s with quite a few names for the different known bamboo species and their uses, see this dictionary: nos. 20 to 25. Nigálya may however be a word from a language that is spoken in Nepal; there are umpteen ethnic groups living in the country, each with their own language, most of which are only spoken but not written languages. See also ref no. 64 stating that the Sherpas call the species ye niglva ponva; they speak Bhotia. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 20:32, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
Nigalo is also a word for bamboo, see here. Panja is here. I understand and share your concerns, if you feel it isn't clear enough that what I have added is still speculative, please alter it. Innocenceisdeath (talk) 21:23, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
There you are: the word for this particular species of bamboo Arundinaria intermedia निङालो niṅālo also means kind of small leopard' (= n˚ cituwā), the cat-bear, see nos. 2 and 3 of your 1st link. This is the same cituwā that Hardwicke referred to in his description of 1821. Sherpas derived many words from Nepali, so that it is likely that in Bhotia, the word niṅālo was pronounced slightly different with the ending -o more like an -a, transliterated by Shrestha, T. K. (2003) as niglva. Concerning the word पौँजा paũjā (no. 4 of your 2nd link) meaning paw of an animal, this is not really similar to the word pónya: the j in paũjā is pronounced like the j in the English words jet or joy, whereas the y in pónya is pronounced like the y in yes or yard or yellow. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 23:38, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

I added this as it gave the reasoning behind the previously unjustified translation to bamboo-footed. It is a stretch from nigalya ponya to these other Nepalese words and I do feel that it is unlikely that this is the origin of the name. This said, the links I have given do support the definition of nigalo and ponja. In my first link, if you look at item 2, nĩgālo is clearly listed as a synonym to niṅālo, which can mean a partic. kind of small bamboo. In my second link, if you look at item 1, panjā is clearly listed as a synonym to the word paja, which can mean the toes, the ball of the foot, claws. I myself am not making the link to these words, the publication which I am referencing gives these as the reasoning behind the 'bamboo-footed' theory, and this other site seems to support the definitions of the individual words. The definition that you also looked at for ninalo is quite interesting as it defines it as being a name for a kind of small leopard, the cat-bear. Cat-bear is a synonym for red panda, I can't find anything on it being another name for a leopard though. Feel free to remove this addition to the article, but I felt it would be good to put why it is thought by some to mean 'bamboo-footed' Innocenceisdeath (talk) 00:57, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

OK, you two are WAY over my level on this one. I am going to just sit back and enjoy the discussion. Donlammers (talk) 01:45, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Right you are, Donlammers, to sit back and enjoy!
Innocenceisdeath wrote that he 'can't find anything on it being another name for a leopard though': the name Chitwa that Hardwicke referred to in his description of 1821 is pronounced the same way as cituwā in the explanation of निङालो niṅālo in Turner's dictionary; the former spelling is 'anglicized', the latter is transliterated correctly. Anyhow, we are slowly getting there. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 02:54, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I meant that I cannot find any other instances where a leopard is referred to as a cat-bear, not that I couldn't find where it was referred to as a cituwā Innocenceisdeath (talk) 11:09, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Oh, wow, you'll have to excuse me I am being ignorant. The cituwā is and always was the red panda of course. Does this not mean that this dictionary indicates निङालो niṅālo is are actually also a name for the red panda? Innocenceisdeath (talk) 11:23, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Chitwa or चितुवा cituwā is not only a name for the red panda, but is also a word for leopard and any other spotted cat such as a leopard cat and a clouded leopard. see here The word refers much more to the animal being spotted or with a fur of more than two colors versus e.g. a jungle cat, which is ban biralo = literally translated forest cat, jungle cat. To bring this to the point: all spotted cats are called chitwa; a leopard being a big spotted cat is more specifically called chitwa bagh if needed to clarify which of the spotted cats is meant, with bagh referring to a big cat, like the tiger. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 16:49, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Etymology 2

Re: "Nigálya pónya,[67] nyala ponga,[citation needed] and poonya[citation needed] are possible sources, and are said to mean eater of bamboo.[citation needed]" I started looking for "nyala ponya" related to red panda on the Web, and most of the hits seem to be old copies of this article -- except maybe the original place I think I had cited which, I think, was here: http://scienceblogs.com/tetrapodzoology/2008/04/proper_pandas.php. I didn't just cite this article because I think it would be better if we could find whatever source he quotes. I copied his refs that we don't already have below. I just ordered the two books used, but I do not have access to the journals without payment (more for one article than I just paid for both books). I hate to be cheap, but if someone has access to the articles, they may be of some use, either with these citations or with others.

  • Hodgson, B. H. 1847. On the cat-toed subplantigrades of the sub-Himalayas. Journal of the Asiatic Society 16, 1113-1129.
  • Laidler, K. & Laidler, L. 1992. Pandas: Giants of the Bamboo Forest. BBC Books, London.
  • Li, M., Wei, F., Goossens, B., Feng, Z., Tamate, H. D., Bruford, M. W. & Funk, S. M. 2005. Mitochondrial phylogeography and subspecific variation in the red panda (Ailurus fulgens): implications for conservation. Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution 36, 78-89.
  • Macdonald, D. W. 1992. The Velvet Claw: a Natural History of the Carnivores. BBC Books, London.
I am almost certain that I have read Hodgson's definitive text before, but I cannot find it. I do believe that the only variation of those names he gives is Nigálya pónya, but obviously this is not good enough. Innocenceisdeath (talk) 21:21, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Re: Hodgson's article -- Vol 16 of the Journal of the Asiatic Society published in 1856 is online here, but his article is not part of this vol. Looks like it should be an earlier vol, 14 or 15. Are you sure the ref is correct ? -- BhagyaMani (talk) 15:03, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I believe it was published in the Journal of the Asiatic Society of Bengal, not the Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland Innocenceisdeath (talk) 15:18, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
Several vols are online here -- BhagyaMani (talk) 15:41, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
This will take a while to sort through. They aren't well labeled, and at least at a quick glance they don't seem to be in any particular order. I lifted the ref from the article, and it didn't state which "Asiatic Society", but I suspect innocenceisdeath is correct in his assumption that it is the Bengal journal. I'll try to poke through a bit at a time to find the correct one, but real life is intruding a lot right now. Donlammers (talk) 03:25, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
Had a look at some of these vols, but favored to follow a different track: reading about the travels of Alfred Duvaucel, see some updates in the resp. article. And came across a note that Hodgson described an animal in the early 1820s from the north of the Himalayas, locally called Ouàh, which he considered to be identical with an animal he received alive in spring 1824. So it may indeed be worthwhile to sort through these vols of the Bengal journal and find his article. However, since it was Duvaucel who sent the specimen to Paris, am more confident to find a reference to panda in writings about him. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 19:57, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Innocenceisdeath: you mentioned that you have a digital copy of Cuvier's first description. Is there any mention in which particular month this was published ?? Am just curious whether this was before April 1825, at which time the obituary of Alfred Duvaucel was published, or later. Meanwhile I think it likely that he required the panda parts that he sent to Paris during his expedition to the mountains of Sylhet, where he went hunting with local people.
Tracking Duvaucel, I found that in the 19th century the French word Panda referred to the Roman goddess of travelers. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 01:10, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Cuvier's description makes up three written pages and one plate on the red panda. It was published in the third volume, I cannot give page numbers as the pages were not numbered and it would have taken a very long time to carefully turn and count each page of this very large, old book. As it is my understanding it was published in 1825, but I cannot be much more specific than that. However, the item on red pandas seems to indicate it was written in June 1825, which is after April 1825, so clearly it was not published until after then. Sadly I am no closer to being able to publish these digital copies online, it is a real shame as I believe this kind of information should be made freely available. Do you mean to say that Duvaucel acquired those parts in his expedition? I believe I have read some articles that indicated the general speculation as to where it is believed Duvaucel acquired these red panda parts. I shall try and find it. Where did you find out about the French word Panda? That is quite interesting. Innocenceisdeath (talk) 12:18, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
For the French word Panda, name of the goddess of travelers, who was called upon before a difficult journey, see Grand dictionnaire universel du XIXe siècle, 1st column. I thought this interesting too, because of 2 reasons:
  • Was wondering whether Cuvier had her in mind when receiving these parts of the unknown animal from Duvaucel, since latest by spring 1824 — when his 2nd article about Duvaucel's journeys was published — he knew that Duvaucel suffered of a jungle fever after returning from Sylhet to Calcutta in December 1821. At the time, Duvaucel had posted letters and sketches from Calcutta but apparently shipped the consignment with his Sylhet collections later, after sorting the material in his 'base camp' at Chandernagore. Cuvier also knew that Duvaucel planned an expedition to Tibet, but did not yet know that he had to cancel this.
  • When you look at species first described by French, they usually didn't bother to incorporate local names in their descriptions, but rather 'invented' their own vernacular names. (Still today, they don't like using foreign names and words, by the way.)
Whether Duvaucel acquired those parts or hunted the animal himself, I cannot yet tell. He was an experienced hunter and taxidermist himself, but also locally employed hunters, and brought one guy along from Sumatra, who accompanied him to Sylhet, which at the time was already part of British India. But the mountains, where he went from Sylhet, were not part of British India, so may as well be "the mountains north of India" that Georges Cuvier referred to in his short description of the species of 1829. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 19:22, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

pónya – pajā – paũjā – panda

To my above remarks of 25 Dec I want to add the following:

  • These last days, I searched for and screened dozens of old French journals and dictionaries for articles about Duvaucel and accounts of his journeys and collections sent to Paris. The first three articles were published in 1824, some with excerpts of his letters to Cuvier. Later articles published after his death referred to these early ones, basically providing summaries, and still later ones summaries of these summaries. None of these articles provides any record that Duvaucel ever travelled to Nepal to pursue his zoological collections, or that he was in contact with hunters from Nepal. Hence, I suppose it very unlikely that he knew the Nepali words pónya – pajā – paũjā and their meaning, and as much unlikely that Cuvier knew these words, and also that he knew the word panda from a Nepali context. Therefore, I come to the conclusion that Chris Catton’s statement about the origin of the word panda – referred to in the article – is pure speculation.
  • Accounted for is that Duvaucel travelled to the Jaintia and Khasi hills, or Cossy hills as the British used to spell this name, an area that was not part of British India in the 1820s, and is part of Meghalaya today. The language spoken there is Khasi, which belongs to a very different language family than Nepali, namely Austro-Asiatic. Possible is that Duvaucel picked up the Khasi name for this strange to him unknown animal, of which he sent the parts to Cuvier. I checked the 100 year old Khasi-English dictionary, which provides words for small bear and big bear, but no word that faintly sounds like panda.
After all my delving among old books, I’m now convinced that Cuvier simply used a French word for the species, with the intention to give an old name - for a Roman goddess - a completely new meaning. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 16:05, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

New source on names

Well, it has been a few years, but it appears that one of the original texts I suggested may contain some useful information (back in 2010) has been digitised by Google and does indeed contain some useful information.

  • Hodgson, B. H. 1847. On the cat-toed subplantigrades of the sub-Himalayas. Journal of the Asiatic Society 16, 1113-1129.

http://books.google.com/books?id=iAfgAAAAMAAJ&lpg=PA1113&ots=4SSUYJl6-P&dq=On%20the%20cat-toed%20subplantigrades%20of%20the%20sub-Himalayas&pg=PA1113#v=onepage&q&f=false

If you read through you will find the following quotes relating to the origins, and meanings of some of the names:

The Ailuri feed on fruits, tuberous roots, thick sprouts such as those of the Chinese bamboo,* acorns, beech mast and eggs. * Hence one of their names, viz. Nigálya-pónya.

I feel this quote can be taken to indicate that the name Nigálya pónya refers to the eating of bamboo. If nobody objects to this, I will update the names section of the article to incorporate this citation.

Names and species. — To the Tibetans, Nepaulese, and Sikimites the Ailuri are known by the names Wáh, Oá, Uktónka, Saknam, Thóngwáh and Thó-kyé. Also, Yé and Nigálya pónya. I never heard the name "Panda," nor did I ever see a specimen answering to the description, in point of colour, of the Panda.* Wherefore I think it probable that the Nipaulese and Sikim species may be different from the Panda, and that the latter is a species peculiar to Bhútán. Under this impression and in order to complete my account of the former, I shall add the description of its colour and subjoin a fresh trivial name. Panda or Fulvens of Cuvier is as yet the only recorded species. * Nat. Library, XIII.217, and Pl.17: Zool Journal, ut supra.

This indicates that the name Panda is unlikely to have originated from Nepal, Tibet or Sikim. Can anyone locate the final text referenced?

There is a great illustration also included in the text too: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=iAfgAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA1114-IA2&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U0xzD1w4t7kLlPhFoojSxF_lSZKgQ Very similar to the colour edition (also by Hodgson) offered by London's Natural History Museum here: http://piclib.nhm.ac.uk/results.asp?inline=true&image=037028&wwwflag=3&imagepos=3 Innocenceisdeath (talk) 12:44, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Firefox browser name redux

I support the claim that Mozilla got the name Firefox as a colloquial name of the Red Panda. They explicitly say so on their Brand name FAQ page. "A "Firefox" is another name for the red panda." They quote the BBC as the source. From http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/life/Red_Panda: "Common names: Firefox, Lesser panda"

The BBC could be mistaken and Mozilla could just be propagating that error, but that does not change the fact that Mozilla thinks that "firefox" is a common name for a Red Panda and that the animal on their logo is meant to represent a Red Panda.

Based on this, I am restoring that info. AlanPater (talk) 16:02, 20 August 2014 (UTC)


I am reverting an edit which again claims that the firefox browser was "named after" the red panda. The browser name was picked for other reasons "It's similar to Firebird. It's easy to remember. It sounds good. It's unique. We like it. And we weren't able to find any other project or company even remotely similar to a web browser that uses the same name." When they are asked what a firefox is, they claim that it is another name for the red panda (please see the discussions in etymology/Local names about how true this is). The link on this statement, if you follow it, goes to an article which is a mirror of this (the Wikipedia red panda) article. We can't quote someone who is quoting us... This section does need citations. I thought I had some at one time, and will need to go back and investigate. Donlammers (talk) 03:00, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

"The Firefox browser is said to have been named after a Chinese name for red panda: 火狐, or "fire fox." However, Mozilla contradicts this in its branding statements, saying: It's similar to Firebird. It's easy to remember. It sounds good. It's unique. We like it. And we weren't able to find any other project or company even remotely similar to a web browser that uses the same name. —Mozilla.org, Why change the name?[53]"

In what way does the statement from Mozilla.org contradict the previous sentence? It does not so the sentence should be amended. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.104.44.11 (talk) 23:41, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

The statement from Mozilla specifically states how the browser was named, and this does not include being named after the red panda. The "speculationr" is that the browser was named after the red panda. Therefore the two say two different things. However, you are correct that the Mozilla statement does not directly "contradict" the previous statement. I have amended the sentence to say that Mozilla claims different motivations. The point of the sentence (if someone can write it better) is that the browser was NOT named after the red panda (we won't mention that Americans seem to have forgotten to tell the Chinese that one of their names for red panda is firefox). Donlammers (talk) 00:13, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

There are isolated references to "fire foxes" in Chinese litterature before the browser's era, but what is meant by "fire fox" in each context is unclear:
However, this one reference explicitly equates red panda with fire fox:
And there are more, as this search reveals:
  • RED PANDA [...] genus and species Ailurus fulgens ALTERNATIVE NAMES Lesser panda; cat-bear; fox-cat, fire-fox - Maurice Burton, Robert Burton, The International Wildlife Encyclopedia, Volume 1, 1970
  • The creature is known as the fire fox, the red, or lesser, panda. To many a connoisseur of animal pattern and form, the little red panda (Ailurus fulgens) is one of the most beautiful of all animals in nature's kingdom. - Biology Digest, Volume 9, 1982
  • For nearly half a century after it was named, the red panda was the panda. Then, in 1869, Père Armand David, [...] some given by European naturalists — shining panda, red cat bear, Himalayan raccoon, and fire fox - Dorcas MacClintock, Red Pandas: A Natural History, 1988
  • Also known as the bear cat and fire fox, the nocturnal red panda is an excellent climber [...] - National Geographic Society (U.S.), National Geographic, Volume 173, 1988
  • Europeans in the Orient soon found the red panda in China as well as Nepal. There its name was hun-ho, "fire fox," or hsiung maou, "bear cat." Several other names would be added from different areas over the years [...] - Virginia C. Holmgren, Raccoons: in folklore, history & today's backyards, 1990
  • The lesser, or red panda lives as [...] The Chinese name Hon-ho (fire fox) refers to the shiny red color of the animal's fur. - Bernhard Grzimek, Grzimek's Encyclopedia of Mammals, Volume 3, 1990
  • The alternative Chinese name of fire fox seems particularly apt when the lesser panda's reddish back is glimpsed as it weaves its way [...] - Heather Angel, Pandas, 1998
Side note: The China Journal, Volume 20, 1934, states "The Japanese call the phosphorescent lights arising from decaying fish and vegetable matter the fire-fox."
Urhixidur (talk) 16:43, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Add the information "Firefox Cubs"

Since Mozilla Corporation is currently putting the hyperlink up to view live feeds of "Firefox" cubs, why not anyone put the information about it in the wiki yet? 99.99.235.159 (talk) 09:56, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

The link is not significant unless the name of the browser and the animal are related (for instance, it would not be significant if I put it on my web site), and by their own statements the browser is not named after the red panda (this is cited in the article). I suppose we could say something like "Although the Firefox browser was not named after the red panda (which we can cite), and the logo is a red fox (which we can also cite), Firefox seems to be commercializing on the current popularity of the red panda by claiming that Firefox=red panda and showing cute pictures (which we can cite)." Firefox seems to have become a popular name for red panda in the US because it is supposedly the Chinese word for red panda (for which nobody has been able to find any real evidence). I think we should hold off on any additional changes about until we can sort this out with decent support. Discussions on various aspects of naming can be found above and in the archives. Donlammers (talk) 14:28, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

As you say, no one has provided any evidence that the Chinese for red panda played any role. As I noted in Talk:Firefox (disambiguation), the bible has a story of foxes with firebrands tied to their tails, so that seems like a more likely origin. Perchloric (talk) 22:42, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

Actually I think that the association is obvious enough that it's hard to pin it on a specific origin without a lot more evidence than "here's a ref that predates the other one" (there is no more reliable evidence for biblical origin than Chinese origin -- the bible reference is about foxes, not pandas). There is an example picture at the Denver Zoo that would tempt you to call it firefox without any prior knowledge of such a name (sunset, with the sun behind the animal, making it look like it's on fire). This picture claims Chinese origin (unfortunately without any citations). Back when this article claimed that the origin was Chinese, there were plenty of refs on the Web. When I started tracing them, most turned out to be mirrors or copies of this article, and there are far fewer now that this article doesn't claim the association. Donlammers (talk) 01:55, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

I have rewritten the additions by Perchloric about the live feed to Firefox cubs to (hopefully) separate the current live link information from the browser naming/branding. According to Mozilla, the browser was NOT named after the red panda, and the logo is a red fox, not a red panda. The first part of the paragraph now deals with the branding (the live feed is not evidence of why the name was originally picked). The second part is about Mozilla claiming that firefox is a name for red panda (which seems to be an American invention, as there is no evidence whatsoever that it comes from Chinese), and now providing the live link. Donlammers (talk) 16:23, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Distribution

Does anyone have evidence for the distribution stated by "Its westernmost limit is the Annapurna Range in Nepal, and the easternmost is the Qinling Mountains of the Shaanxi Province in China."? This information is stated in the IUCN assessment. They seem to be quoting Roberts and Gittleman (1984, which we also use), but that article does NOT support this statement. When HXL49 changed Quin Ling to Qinling, I first verified this, then realized that the species distribution map in our article did NOT extend to those Mountains, and that the Qinling Mountains article did not include red panda in its fauna list. This seems to be correct, as Roberts and Gittleman state in 1984 "the northern and eastern limit is the upper Min Valley of western Sichuan" -- hardly the Qinling Mountains in Shaanxi Province. Wei, Feng, Wang, and Hu (1999) support our statement that "The red panda has become extirpated from the Chinese provinces of Guizhou, Gansu, Shaanxi and Qinghai", and this implies that at some point the red panda lived at least somewhere in Shaanxi Province, but I can't find a source for this outside the IUCN statement. I am handicapped by only being able to access the abstract for the Wei et al article, so the article itself may say something more about the historic range if someone has access. Donlammers (talk) 15:13, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Per Wegge found red pandas during a survey in the 1970s in the Dhorpatan Hunting Reserve, which is to the southwest of Annapurna CA. According to the Nepal Biodiversity Resource Book, red pandas are also found in Rara National Park, which is even further west of Annapurna CA. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 16:13, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
That clarifies the western border a bit, though I worry a bit about how current some of this is. 1970 is practically ancient history for animal distribution. It would be better to have some sort of "red pandas have been reported from here to there historically, but currently...". The eastern range is implied to be to the Qinling Mountains fairly recently too, but that's not where they are now. Donlammers (talk) 17:42, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
Aryal reports that red pandas are fairly common in DHR: see link to his papers academicjournals.org/IJBC/PDF/pdf%202010/Mar/Aryal%20et%20al.pdf and academicjournals.org/JENE/PDF/Pdf2010/Apr/Aryal%20et%20al.pdf and http://snowleopardnetwork.org/bibliography/AryalFinal08.pdf. Am afraid he may also just refer to Wegge's report. A more recent one is Kandel's 2009 report Human pressure and its impact on the distribution and conservation status of Red Panda in Dhorpatan Hunting Reserve with intro at http://eco.confex.com/eco/2009/techprogram/P20744.HTM. Am in a rush. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 17:54, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
Unlinked: those are cites to a predatory open access journal. Guy (Help!) 19:21, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Classification

The statement of classification (with citation) is the third paragraph in the lead. In addition, there is more detail under Phylogenetics. I just reread the lead as reverted though, and I think the statement that it is "only distantly related" is good to have right at the front. If someone thinks it's redundant with paragraph three though, I won't argue. Donlammers (talk) 19:56, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Differences with giant panda

The following link is not an appropriate external link, but may come in handy if we decide to add something about the differences between giant and red pandas: Sympatric Giant Panda and Red Panda. I'm not convinced this is important, since we already discuss the scientific confusion around the matter and cite it pretty well. However, if someone can make use of this, it's here.

Behavior

"If they feel threatened or sense danger, they may try to escape by climbing a rock column or tree. If they can no longer flee, they stand on their hind legs to make themselves appear larger and use the sharp claws on their front paws to defend themselves." Can anyone provide a citation for this? I have been looking in one of my red panda books and can't information about these behaviors as a response to threat. Seadark (talk) 04:33, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Physical Characteristics

Need to describe it better.

Voxhit (talk) 02:25, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

In captivity

I am removing birth announcements. It started as triplets and quadruplets only, but has now devolved to listing just about any birth. With over 100 each at Nashville and Rotterdam, the rest are hardly notable. I would love to put something about "usually singles or twins, but triplets have been born at xxx in xxxx, quadruplets in yyy...". If nothing else, this would limit the list. However, the current article and citations say 1-4 cubs, so I can't say "usually 1 or 2" without some additional research. Maybe some day Don Lammers (talk) 16:34, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

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