Talk:Realtor

Concern about target

The correct usage should indicate that the word is a registered trademark. Polounit 05:33, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think this page should redirect to: Real estate broker. A Realtor is a member of the National Association of Realtors and is not necessarily a real estate broker or vice versa. Suggest redirecting to the NAR page instead.Rbucich (talk) 19:08, 20 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that it should not redirect to Real estate agent in general because it is misleading and incorrect. Real estate agent now contains a section clarifying the difference between realtor and agent/broker/salesperson. That specific section seems to be a much more reasonable target. Toddst1 (talk) 15:00, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Improper use of the trademarked term REALTOR

The REALTOR trademark is not synonymous with "real estate broker". The REALTOR term has one meaning only: a registered collective membership mark that identifies real estate professionals who are members of the National Association of REALTORS and abide by its strict Code of Ethics. The link redirecting this page to the "Real Estate Broker" page is incorrect and misleading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Checht7 (talk • contribs) 21:48, 30 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Most readers looking up "Realtor" are interested in the profession, rather than the organization. It's appropriate to refer them to this article. For those few who are looking for information on the organization (despite not knowing its name, apparently), the article includes the hatnote For the real estate industry trade association that refers to its members as "Realtors", see National Association of Realtors. "Synonymous" has nothing to do with it. TJRC (talk) 22:55, 30 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but this is an encyclopedia, WP:NOTHOWTO. The redirect should be correct and neutral, not merely convenient.

To address both @TJRC:'s concern as well as the concerns raised by the other three editors here (which I share), I've created a new section in Real estate agent to address the difference.

This redirect should point to that new section that defines the term and clarifies the difference in the real estate agent article, which TJRC just reverted.

I've restored the redirect to the that section in Real estate agent as it correctly describes the term and clarifies the difference between the term Realtor and agent in the article real estate agent.

That should solve the concern TJRC raised above and addresses the concern that Realtor != Real estate agent that 4 of us have now raised on this talk page. Toddst1 (talk) 13:53, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No, I don't think so.

Most readers looking up "Realtor" are interested in the profession, rather than the organization. The direct for "Realtor" should simply redirect to a discussion of the profession; not to a discussion of one organization's trademark claim to the word. TJRC (talk) 18:08, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Says who? Only you.

You are edit warring and ignoring clear consensus. 4 editors think it should be the other way. @Checht7: @Polounit: @Rbucich: and me. You have no support for your opinion and edits. STOP! Toddst1 (talk) 23:06, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Most readers looking up "Realtor" are interested in the profession--evidence? Seems that having the redirect to section describing the usage of the term is appropriate and those readers who are looking for the info about broader profession are not terribly inconvenienced as they are on the same page after all. older ≠ wiser 13:54, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Although, I think the section perhaps should appear earlier in the article (or perhaps be incorporated differently). older ≠ wiser 13:57, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the entire real estate agent article is in very poor condition. Very poorly referenced and unclearly written. older ≠ wiser 14:34, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Per @Bkonrad: I moved the section up, but that was deemed as not important enough [1]. Toddst1 (talk) 20:07, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'll say that I think the section as-written is overly weighted toward what the NAR org wants as opposed to how it's generally used. I think it's clear we should define that it is a trademark and it is often used to mean this specific meaning but it also is very commonly used in the US just to mean "real estate agent" and that isn't "wrong", it's just how it's used. I don't have a great idea how to rewrite it right now but "Realtor" is not synonymous with real estate agent, broker, or salesperson in particular feels a bit pushy. Thanks. Skynxnex (talk) 21:23, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's not what NAR wants, it's what NAR owns. NAR owns the term. Toddst1 (talk) 21:30, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Will reply in Talk:Real estate agent#Not All Real Estate Agents are REALTORS® since I didn't realize this was just the redirect talk page when I replied. Skynxnex (talk) 21:49, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The entire organization of that article is messed up (IMO), not only where one not very well-written small section is placed within the article. I mean, there is a section discussing "The difference between salespersons and brokers" -- this small point seems more related to that subtopic than to most of the rest of the (not very well-written) article. older ≠ wiser 21:50, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, it's one of the poorer articles I've encountered recently. Loads of OR and uninformed opinions/observations. Toddst1 (talk) 21:51, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Need for consensus

There has clearly been some edit warring here, and consensus for the current redirect doesn't seem to have been clearly established. Could we please re-start the discussion, including all those previously involved and anyone else who has an opinion? I freely admit that, not being American, I have very little idea about the topic. Polounit (Toddst1—Bkonrad—Skynxnex—TJRC—Rbucich—Checht7) Deb (talk) 13:52, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Deb. Yes, people do misuse the term to refer to a real estate agent, but this is an encyclopedia, not the urban dictionary. Our info must be factual. I can't see any reason it should not redirect to Real_estate_agent#Realtor where the term is well and neutrally defined, at least as of this comment. I see only TJRC supporting his/her position and consensus seems clear and ignored. Toddst1 (talk) 15:10, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am not yet sure what I think but I lean toward "realtor" being used generically enough that we shouldn't redirect to an anchor but instead include a bolded realtor alternative name at the top of the article: A real estate agent, referred to often as a real estate broker or realtor, (and probably near the end of the lead or in its own section describe what "realtor" means/history). I base this on the mushiness of general understanding and usage of "realtor" in the US/Canada currently. And that is factual, along with the fact that realtor is also a trademark.

I think wikt:realtor's definition and quotations support this:

(Canada, US) A person or business that sells or leases out real estate, acting as an agent for the property owner. quotations ▲
1919, Mr. Shannon, , United States Senate:
It was composed of an engineer, if I remember correctly, a town planner, a realtor, and occasionally an architect […]

1922, Sinclair Lewis, , New York, N.Y.: Harcourt, Brace and Company, →OCLC:
First place, we ought to insist that folks call us ‘realtors’ and not ‘real-estate men.’ Sounds more like a reg’lar profession.

1975, Jerzy Kosiński, , Grove Press, published 1998, page 189:
Intrigued by the prospect of an additional commission, the realtor hurriedly assured me he foresaw no problem in obtaining the lease.

1997, Douglas A. Gray, , second edition, page 72:
The terms agent, broker, and realtor are often used interchangeably.

2003, Gary Andrew Dresden, , iUniverse, page 111:
The realtor was like a carnivore, ready to spring. He was originally from New York and he seemed like the kind of guy who could smell a deal.

Skynxnex (talk) 04:17, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's a great opinion, but all that proves is that people use it improperly. This is an encyclopedia based on reliable sources, not popular [mis]usage which amounts to WP:IHEARDIT. Nobody has come up with any reliable sources that says Realtor = real estate agent. Toddst1 (talk) 22:17, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Given the discussion in Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#Trademarked brands that have become pseudo-synonymous with a term would National Association of Realtors or National Association of Realtors#Trademark be a better target? That section is significantly longer than the one in Real estate agent, which maybe should have a Template:Main or similar added to the Trademark section. (I'm not going to respond how generically used the term is since I think given other redirects we have for trademarks/terms it's not super relevant anyway.) Skynxnex (talk) 05:21, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Skynxnex: I like the idea of the redirect going to National Association of Realtors#Trademark. Toddst1 (talk) 16:50, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Cool. I think probably anyone in a day or two should feel free to make that change? Skynxnex (talk) 02:38, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

National Association of Realtors § Trademark does have more history and context for the term, but readers looking for "real estate agent" generically would no longer be at the right article. (See, e.g., Garner's Modern English Usage, which states "some authorities suggest that it should be capitalized and used only in its proprietary trademark sense... Few people seem to know about the trademark, and consequently in AmE the term is used indiscriminately of real-estate agents generally.") The history in the NAR article also naturally doesn't cover its modern usage in Canada, while Real estate agent § Realtor does, albeit very briefly. I could support redirecting to the NAR trademark section, but the section would need a hatnote similar to Kleenex or Velcro: --Trystan (talk) 04:22, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'd also support that. Skynxnex (talk) 04:32, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]