Talk:Ramon Alcaraz

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On 7 December 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved from Ramon A. Alcaraz to Ramon Alcaraz (Philippine Navy Commodore). The result of the discussion was moved.

Requested move 7 December 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. There is consensus that the Filipino navy commodore is the primary topic, and the Mexican military writer be moved to Ramón Isaac Alcaraz. Best, (closed by non-admin page mover) Reading Beans, Duke of Rivia 11:10, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

– (Also proposing that "Ramon Alcaraz" be made a disambiguation page.) Ramon A. Alcaraz is prominent enough in the Philippines that he should be as much a main topic as Ramón Alcaraz the Mexican military writer). I propose the parenthetical "Philippine Navy Commodore" because a sailor is not a soldier, and because the subject1 is strongly associated with his last rank, "Commodore" to the point where it's almost used like a first name. I propose parenthetical (Mexican military writer) because the subject2 is more known for his writing than for his work as an army officer. Chieharumachi (talk) 00:57, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(Note: Preliminary discussions have been brought up at Wikipedia talk:Tambayan Philippines#Ramón Alcaraz and Ramon A. Alcaraz.)

* Support - my own proposal, of course. - Chieharumachi (talk) 00:59, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

* Modifying vote to Support the following:

- Ramon A. Alcaraz --> Ramon Alcaraz as per suggestion by Howard the Duck

~~- Ramón Alcaraz --> Ramón Isaac Alcaraz as per suggestion by Moscow Mule and Roman Spinner~~

I shall try to put together a summary of suggestions as soon as I can. - Chieharumachi (talk) 02:15, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

* Further modifying vote upon relection to Support Ramón Alcaraz --> Ramón Alcaraz (writer) as per suggestion by Moscow Mule- Chieharumachi (talk) 03:04, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support disambiguation "military officer". We do not disambiguate on military rank (unless a identically-named person is also served in the same military service I suppose), nor is "military writer" too specific of a disambiguator. Howard the Duck (talk) 01:06, 7 December 2024 (UTC) [reply]
~~I'd also defer on how military officers are disambiguated; I have previously suggested "soldier" elsewhere. Howard the Duck (talk) 01:12, 7 December 2024 (UTC)~~[reply]
This has been superseded by my amended proposal below. Howard the Duck (talk) 23:32, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Based on all-time page view stats, you can conclude that the Filipino Alcaraz is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC over the Mexican Alcaraz. Howard the Duck (talk) 01:29, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Move first to Ramon Alcaraz, opppose second. If the best title for the naval officer is "Ramon Alcaraz", then the current hatnotes are sufficient disambiguation per WP:SMALLDETAILS. Parenthetical disambiguation is inappropriate here. Mdewman6 (talk) 03:24, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This was my suggestion on a previous WP:RM (see explanation below by Seav). However, it was argued that the accented letters not sufficient enough details to differentiate, so parethentical disambiguation is needed.

(I would have supported your suggestion, though.) Howard the Duck (talk) 00:16, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: As I understand it, this RM is inspired by the successful RM that resulted in the following outcomes:
- Mariano Gómez → Mariano Gomez (priest)
- Mariano Gómez (footballer) (as is)
- Mariano Gomez → converted to dab page
- Mariano Gómez → redirect to the dab page above

—seav (talk) 16:48, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

- - - Mild Oppose - simply because this is confusing, as per explanations in the Mariano Gomez RM discussion mentioned by Seav above.
Comment. Dabbing the Mexican bloke as "(Mexican military writer)" seems like overkill. Just "(writer)"? He was actually a lot more than that (politician, poet, playwright...) although his article doesn't currently say so. There's also a strong possibility he went down in posterity as Ramón Isaac Alcaraz (which was a red link on Benito Juárez up until a few minutes ago), as evidenced by es:Ramón Isaac Alcaraz, the Enciclopedia de la Literatura en México and the Academia Mexicana de la Lengua. Moscow Mule (talk) 18:04, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nomination and would also support, as an alternative option for the flag rank, the streamlined qualifier Ramon A. Alcaraz → Ramon Alcaraz (Commodore) (per Category:Navy commodores). As for the Mexican army officer and politician, would likewise support, as an alternative option, the streamlined qualifier Ramón Alcaraz → Ramón Alcaraz (writer) or, to avoid the use of a qualifier, Ramón Alcaraz → Ramón I. Alcaraz (the pen name that appeared on his writings) or the full name, Ramón Alcaraz → Ramón Isaac Alcaraz, per Moscow Mule. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 01:26, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Roman Spinner, I've tried to summarize your suggestions in the table below, but I may have missed something. Please feel free to either edit or let me know :D

Support moving Ramon A. Alcaraz to Ramon Alcaraz and Ramón Alcaraz to Ramón Isaac Alcaraz, with each affected article having hatnotes with each other. The Mexican military officer seems to be known by another name as per Moscow Mule, and this avoids parenthetical disambiguation. If these are not feasible, strongly oppose the usage of military ranks as disambiguation methods, use instead "(naval officer)" for the Filipino, and "(writer)" for the Mexican. On the Category:Commodores, naval officers were disamiguated this way, and there's no reason not to follow that. Howard the Duck (talk) 23:32, 9 December 2024 (UTC).[reply]

Table Summaries of Suggestions

(Please keep this section below the above discussion so that it's easy to find; please feel free to correct or revise your suggestion/support if misinterpreted, or if you change your mind.)

Boldface entries indicate current vote.

For Filipino Ramon Alcaraz
Original	Proposed New	Most updated status
Ramon A. Alcaraz	Ramon Alcaraz (Philippine Navy Commodore)	Originally proposed by Chieharumachi, but support withdrawn; supported by Roman Spinner
	Ramon A. Alcaraz (naval officer)	Alternative proposed by Howard the Duck as second choice if Ramon Alcaraz as WP:PRIMARYTOPIC is not feasible alternative supported by Chieharumachi as second choice if Ramon Alcaraz as WP:PRIMARYTOPIC is not feasible
	Ramon Alcaraz (as WP:PRIMARYTOPIC)	Proposed by Mdewman6; supported by Chieharumachi; supported by Howard the Duck; and neutral clarification by Seav in discussion with {u\|Howard the Duck}}.
	Ramon Alcaraz (commodore)	alternative proposed as an alternative by Roman Spinner, but still supporting original Nom

Comment. In typing the alternative proposal, I should have used a lowercase "c" for "commodore" (Ramon A. Alcaraz → Ramon Alcaraz (commodore)). —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 02:44, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Modified - Chieharumachi (talk) 02:48, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For Mexican Ramón Alcaraz
Original	Proposed New	Most updated status
Ramón Alcaraz	Ramón Alcaraz (Mexican military writer)	Alternative proposed by Chieharumachi but support withdrawn, Opposed by Mdewman6
Ramón Alcaraz	Ramón Alcaraz (no change)	Proposed by Mdewman6 Clarificatory note by Howard the Duck Clarificatory note by Seav Mild Opposed by Chieharumachi
	Ramón Alcaraz (Mexican military officer)	Alternative proposed by Howard the Duck but now in favor of Ramón Isaac Alcaraz or Ramón Alcaraz (writer)
	Ramón Alcaraz (writer)	Suggested as comment by Moscow Mule Supported by Roman Spinner Alternative supported by Chieharumachi as an alternative if Ramón Isaac Alcaraz is not viable Alternative supported by Howard the Duck} as an alternative if Ramón Isaac Alcaraz is not viable
	Ramón I. Alcaraz	Proposed by Roman Spinner
	Ramón Isaac Alcaraz	Supported (suggested) by Moscow Mule Proposed by Roman Spinner Supported by Chieharumachi

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.