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Talk:Racist music

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What to do about this topic

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The word "music" only occurs once in the Racism article, so it is a disservice to readers to redirect them there. The bare stub I created with four links actually has more about the topic. Its placement in three different navigation templates seems to indicate that there is a desire for an overview article on the topic. If there's to be no article, then the links should be removed from the navigation templates. Wbm1058 (talk) 01:18, 13 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Removed from navigation templates

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OK, the same blocked sock puppet, User:Jnast1, added this to all three templates:

– I removed these from each template. – Wbm1058 (talk) 18:22, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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I removed or redirected all main space links to this title. Several were changed from Racist music → White power music, as the former article by the name "racist", originally authored by Jnast1, was moved to "white power". See Talk:White power music for more on the past history of this title. – Wbm1058 (talk) 19:47, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Disambiguation

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A redirect to racism is just unacceptable and worthless to our readers. I created a disambig and tagged it as needing {{dabconcept}} treatment. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 03:56, 2 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That was not actually a disambiguation page, so I have reverted that edit. Disambiguation pages are for listing articles that have similar names. For full explanations of what disambiguation pages are and what they should look like, see MOS:DAB, Help:Disambiguation and WP:DISAMBIG.Spylab (talk) 21:24, 3 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No, it was a perfectly valid disambiguation page, and exactly what one should look like, plus it looks like all the examples in the pages you linked. I'm restoring the disambiguation, and if you object I need to see some specifics, none of this "quote a policy and run" crap. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 21:54, 3 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Spylab: Riddle me this. Here (diff) you tagged a section of the article which formerly had this title (until you orchestrated its move) for having "nothing at all to do with music", yet you have no problem with redirecting this title to racism, which has nothing to do with music. Why is that? Wbm1058 (talk) 05:03, 4 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The issue is what a disambiguation page is and what it is not. Disambiguation pages are for listing articles that have similar names. Please read the links I provided. The issue of what this page redirects to or whether it should be deleted is a separate topic.Spylab (talk) 17:24, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a quote from Help:Disambiguation, which includes a link to an example of a disambiguation page:

Disambiguation pages on Wikipedia are used as a process of resolving conflicts in article titles that occur when a single term can be associated with more than one topic, making that term likely to be the natural title for more than one article. In other words, disambiguations are paths leading to different articles which could, in principle, have the same title.

For example, the word "Mercury" can refer to several different things, including an element, a planet, an automobile brand, a record label, a NASA manned-spaceflight project, a plant, and a Roman god. Since only one Wikipedia page can have the generic name "Mercury", unambiguous article titles are used for each of these topics: Mercury (element), Mercury (planet), Mercury (automobile), Mercury Records, Project Mercury, Mercury (plant), Mercury (mythology). There must then be a way to direct the reader to the correct specific article when an ambiguous term is referenced by linking, browsing or searching; this is what is known as disambiguation. In this case it is achieved using Mercury as a disambiguation page.

That is very different from the attempted disambiguation page here.Spylab (talk) 18:05, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to put it up for deletion, put up my version for deletion, not the version you supposedly support. Wbm1058 (talk) 01:11, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No, it's not very different. For example, the term "Racist music" can refer to several different things, including Coon song, National Socialist black metal, Nazi punk, White power music, and Rock Against Communism. Since only one Wikipedia page can have the generic name "Racist music", unambiguous article titles are used for each of these topics. There must then be a way to direct the reader to the correct specific article when an ambiguous term is referenced by linking, browsing or searching; this is what is known as disambiguation. In this case it is achieved using Racist music as a disambiguation page. – Wbm1058 (talk) 01:18, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Racist music. It was closed a strong keep. If you are in denial that White power music is racist music, then get a consensus to change the lead sentence of that article: White power music is music that promotes white nationalism and expresses racism against non-whites. Ditto for the others. Wbm1058 (talk) 01:30, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:BEFORE. I have objected to your proposed deletion, so follow the instructions there if you still feel that your view can prevail as the consensus. Thanks, Wbm1058 (talk) 01:55, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That is not a disambiguation page. Again, please read what a disambiguation page is and what it does. If someone is looking up Coon song, National Socialist black metal, Nazi punk, etc. they will look up those terms, not the term racist music. I am not in denial that white power music is racist music. I dispute the dubious claim that white power music is the only kind of racist music in the world.Spylab (talk) 01:00, 9 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Who made that dubious claim? White power music is not the only kind of racist music in the world. By your POV, racism is the "only" kind of racist music in the world. What is an editor to do, who wants a list of all of the racist music genres that Wikipedia covers? Should the only available method be a brute force full-text search, because Wikipedia editors have intentionally decided to make it hard to find the answer any other way? Can we rename the page List of racist music genres? Would that be OK with you? Wbm1058 (talk) 01:38, 9 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Spylab, you cannot turn this into a redirect and then send it to AfD (you'd have to send it to MfD anyway). The attempt was made to turn this into something viable; that you can send to AfD, sure, but you have to play fair. Drmies (talk) 01:40, 9 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
By only listing and/or discussing specific white racist music genres, it implies that the only racist music that has existed in the world is the overtly racist music by white supremacists. It does not cover all music that includes racist messages. The vague title makes no more sense than racist film, racist art or racist literature. I do not see the point of changing the name to List of racist music genres if it only lists music genres that promote the white power movement and/or ideology. The article white power music already mentions and discusses all of those genres. The original racist music article was created in 2011 (or earlier), and was turned into a redirect in 2012. If it was going to be transformed into something worthwhile to readers, it would have happened by now.Spylab (talk) 02:48, 9 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
So there is still no consensus about what to do with this page, but two other editors agreed that it is not a disambguation page. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Racist music (2nd nomination).Spylab (talk) 20:48, 25 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Spylab: The edit history shows that this was originally a redirect to White power music, and indeed that seems to be the primary topic for the term. I would have no objection to redirecting to that more specific article. It is what comes up at the top of my Google search on Racist music. All of the articles in this "pseudo-dab" are mentioned or linked from White power music, indeed most of them are linked in the lead paragraph of that article. However, my understanding is that you object to that based on an "other stuff exists" argument. I had to go fairly deep in the the Google search results before I found the first example of "other stuff": Perhaps you could start an article on Racist rap. See Racist Rap Lyrics. – Wbm1058 (talk) 14:19, 26 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Build article on MUCH recent published material about racism and music?

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There seems to be quite a bit of recent published material about racism and music. For example:

  • At least 6 articles about racism (or Lost Cause ideology) in The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down (see talk page)
  • Many articles online, such as
    • Jeremy Helligar in Reader's Digest in August 2020: Helligar, Jeremy (26 August 2020). "11 Popular Songs You Didn't Realize Are Actually Racist". Reader's Digest. Retrieved 5 September 2020.
    • Historical article in August 2020 from The New European: Holledge, Richard (27 August 2020). "When rock took on racism". The New European. Retrieved 5 September 2020.
    • Notice in Billboard about current anti-racism in music events: Mims, Taylor (17 August 2020). "Americana Music Association to Host Panel Covering Black Equity, Racism". Billboard. Retrieved 5 September 2020.

And many, many others -- More generally try doing a Google News search on "music racism".

Should some sort of article be built? If so, how best to conceptualize it? I am actually not much knowledgeable about music, so I hope others could take the lead. --Presearch (talk) 23:59, 5 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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