Talk:Racism in Zimbabwe

Neutrality

Searching on Google Scholar, it's pretty clear that the subject is notable. However, it's also clear from the first few pages of Google Scholar results for "racism in Zimbabwe", contemporary conditions for the white minority are pretty much always contextualized with Zimbabwe's prior history of colonization, and reliable sources seem to resist calling anti-white violence "racism". The article needs to be significantly expanded and rewritten. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 03:11, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

I agree. Could this article be any more anti-white and biased? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.104.114.30 (talk) 10:24, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Reverted edits

On review, I don't see a way to incorporate most of the provided sources or content added in this edit.

For the Genocide Watch source, the claim about being "Category 5 genocide" takes the source totally out of context and confuses a watchdog's warning about the potential for genocide with actual genocide. As for the rest of the content, it calls the massacres of Ndebele people a genocide, but given that we have abundant academic sources that avoid that language I see no reason to prefer an advocacy organization's framing. Otherwise it has no information relating to racism not already included in the article.

The CNN news piece is mostly an interview primary source accounts, and moreover doesn't back up the specific numbers provided in the claim. The Gold Coast AU article is a dead link. I'm going to go ahead and use the CNN source to add specific claims about the degree of violence in 2005. Still, for such a sensitive topic we should be deferring to academic coverage of the subject, rather than advocacy groups or news channels. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 06:34, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Hi. Please see Talk:Reverse racism and the 12 references there, most of which are discussing the issue in the Zimbabwe mainly. I will add some content based on them to this page, but probably not in the coming days. Thanks. MS 会話 06:57, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

IP, having looked at the provided sources in this edit, the Times Live article does not support the claims, the Telegraph piece is an opinion columnist and thus not reliable for this subject matter, and the New Zimbabwe piece is a 404. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 07:03, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

The New Zimbabwe piece is archived at the Wayback Machine; it likewise says nothing about anti-white racism, and would probably be WP:UNDUE even if it did. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 11:18, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Anti-White racism category

This article is very broadly about racism perpetuated by both white and black members of Zimbabwe against eachother. Is there any reason why "Racism against whites in Africa" as a category needs to be here? As if it's any more signifigant? 2603:8080:F600:14E7:609A:2A4D:FF05:48A6 (talk) 18:34, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Given that ZANU-PF actively encouraged "...violent farm invasions against the white population, which drew condemnations from the international community." (among other things), I don't see how the encyclopedic value of the page is harmed by including the Anti-White racism category. Perhaps you'll explain? Alssa1 (talk) 18:44, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

It's not neccisarly the harm of having it, rather I see no reason to not also include white supremacy and anti-black categories considering the anger that causes these land grabs are a direct result of european colonialism, and racism against their black parents and grandparents. 2603:8080:F600:14E7:609A:2A4D:FF05:48A6 (talk) 18:53, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

...these land grabs are a direct result of european colonialism, and racism against their black parents and grandparents. This is your opinion, and as you were informed earlier: Wikipedia is not a forum to discuss your personal ideas/views on particular issues/subjects. If there is no encyclopedic harm in including the category on the page, what is your specific dispute with including it on the page? Alssa1 (talk) 18:57, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

You can't call everything you dislike an opinion. My full quote said "The anger that causes these land grabs".

This is according to the sources used in this page which describe the effects of european cololialism and the anger it caused. It can be easily googled and sourced via numerous reliable news articles, books, articles, historical documents, etc.

My dispute is the exclusion of the other categories. 2603:8080:F600:14E7:609A:2A4D:FF05:48A6 (talk) 19:02, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

I haven't called everything I dislike an opinion. But if you are going to assert that "...the anger that causes these land grabs are a direct result of european colonialism, and racism against their black parents and grandparents.", that is objectively an opinion which is not relevant to Wikipedia.

If your dispute is not about the inclusion of the Anti-White racism category, why have you titled this discussion "Anti-White racism category", and why is it in reference to your specific reversion? Finally, you say: "My dispute is the exclusion of the other categories." Whose your opponent on that specific point? Alssa1 (talk) 19:10, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

You, apparently.

Since I strongly feel if I went our of my way to add even one "White supremacy in Africa" category you'd remove it or complain about it to someone else. Claiming it is "Unsourced" Since you keep reducing an objective, researchable fact I am referring to as an "Opinion"

An "Opinion" would be to claim the vicitms of these land grabs should not be surprised. My "Opinion" is that they do have a right to be surpsied, despite what they did.

A "Fact" would be that colonialism caused Zimabewe natives to become angry enough to decide it's what they need to do. And that the government tried to prevent it before joining forces. 2603:8080:F600:14E7:609A:2A4D:FF05:48A6 (talk) 19:16, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Sorry but this is strictly about the inclusion of Anti-White racism category on the page. Alssa1 (talk) 19:19, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

That can stay. Since I would violate the 3 revert rule by adding more categories I am talking to you about it before doing it. As I am supposed to. Apparently. 2603:8080:F600:14E7:609A:2A4D:FF05:48A6 (talk) 19:23, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

• I think we have a broader problem, which is that the category Category:Anti-white racism seems like an exercise in WP:OR. I haven't looked at every article in the category, but academic RS generally and intentionally avoid describing discrimination against white people as racism. Rather than fighting over its inclusion on this page, the family of categories should probably be taken to WP:CFD. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 19:36, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

  I have so many issues to raise about that category, and I will be happy to bring them up. But how do I add it to CFD? What is CFD? Can I even add it to CFD? 2603:8080:F600:14E7:609A:2A4D:FF05:48A6 (talk) 19:44, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

  I'll go ahead and start the process as setting up an WP:XfD without having the right plugins installed can be daunting. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 19:54, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

  This category was nominated for deletion on 13 November 2022. The result of the discussion was keep. Seems a bit too soon to re-nominate, given that only a few months have passed since that discussion. Someone who's wrong on the internet (talk) 20:09, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

  I've opened a discussion here Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_March_23#Category:Anti-white_racism--I haven't been able to track down the discussion archive, but based on the edit history it seems that the the old nomination was a speedy rename discussion and was a successful move from Category:Anti-White racism to the current title. I think there are still valid concerns to raise about the current title as I've raised at the CfD. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 20:25, 23 March 2023 (UTC)