Talk:Racial transformation

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Half of the East Asian population have upper eyelid crease. By undergoing surgery to create one for the rest of them does not mean that they want to be viewed as someone from another ethnicity.

--Eraser78 02:43, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Course: R1A Section: 12 Topic: the nth race: introduction to transraciality Instructor: Joon Lee Time: TTh 11-12:30 Location: 258 Dwinelle Course Control #: 28436

Course Description:

"The first birth is often a failure." Anaïs Nin

Thanks to "advances" in medical and psychiatric technology, we are now able to view gender as a transformative aspect of life: we are not stuck in the sexed body with which we were born. However, our racial identity is still something that seems biologically inescapable, in spite of the now very rich and convincing theoretical history of its constructed, non-essential nature. While the history of transsexualism is marked by the potentially political affect of social transgression, the history of transraciality speaks to us from advertisements for skin-blanching creams, history-denying acts of racial passing, and community-betrayal. Why else the negative reaction-from disgust to ridicule-to Michael Jackson’s plastic surgery escapades? This is, however, contrary to the everyday experience which finds that individual and group racial identification is a process which is necessarily transracial: in declaring ourselves racially, we all cross boundaries set by societies contemporary and past. In this course, we will attempt to produce an idea of idea of race based on the best of transsexualism. The "race" produced thus, like the "third" gender produced by transsexuality, will lead to a complication of existent preconceptions about racial stereotypes and formation.

From Courses at Berkeley. The user DyslexicEditor found this interesting course description and I believe that a large part of it should be intergrated into the article as well as mentioning that courses are being taught in this field and that many people are awaiting the day they can change their appearence as they can currently change their gender.

Is there an article on a completely changable body? Several science fiction stories have it so you can choose your apperance either or both because of technology to manulate matter or because they exist in a virtual reality. I find the difficult part is coming up with a concrete article name, often the concept is not precisely defined although it exists. --ShaunMacPherson 18:21, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This should NOT be 'intergrated'(sic) into the article. Per the following email exchange.

Dear Janice Crooks: (ed. Janice Crooks, Berkeley Department Manager)

I was surprised and shocked to find a degrading and ridiculing reference to Michael Jackson (the singer) on your University's website. That reference is found at http://english.berkeley.edu/courses/fall03r1ar1b.html

Course: R1A, Section: 12, Topic: the nth race: introduction to transraciality

Instructor: Joon Lee

Time: TTh 11-12:30, Location: 258 Dwinelle, Course Control #: 28436

Michael Jackson was diagnosed in 1986 with Vitiligo. He came out public with that information in 1993, while appearing on the Oprah Winfrey show. Mr. Jackson promulgated this information specifically to squelch the incorrect rumors that he was dying his skin to look more 'white'. To have this bad rumor rephrased as a parenthetical rhetorical conjecture in an official Course Description is offensive -- and wrong. This particular course description is from a Fall 2003 class, fully ten years after Mr. Jackson divulged the diagnosed medical condition underlying his skin discoloration. No excuse can be made that the correct information was not available at the time of this particular course (2003).

To quote your department's web site front page, "The Berkeley English Department is home to the country's finest English scholars and students." ( http://english.berkeley.edu/ )

Perpetuating an incorrect bad rumor should be left to the uninformed. A well respected University should not tumble-on. Circumstances pertaining to Mr. Jackson, rumored or proven, may be cause for our personal disgust or ridicule toward Mr. Jackson but this information should not be appearing on a University website. The "...country's finest English scholars and students..." should not be partaking in this rumor-mongering.

To have this conjecture concerning Mr. Jackson appear on your University's official web site adds a false credence to Wikipedia's claim that Mr. Jackson was deliberately having his skin color changed to 'white'. This claim is at Wikipedia page, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transracial#University_studies . And it is echoed in a more complete form on that page's associated 'Talk" page at, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Racial_transformation

When a scheduled course has a change in the classroom location, time or instructor, I'm confident that your department modifies the web page to provide reliable correct information. I am confident that your Department can effect the appropriate change to this particular course description.

Thank You, Joe Hepperle

To which Catherine Gallagher (currently Berkeley English Dept. Emeritus) responded as follows:

Dear Janice,

First, why are our 2003 course offerings cluttering up our website? Second, there is nothing particularly degrading about the reference, and Jackson, of course, had all sorts of plastic surgery that had nothing to do with an illness. But to minimize the chance of this guy continuing to bug us, I think we should explain that the course was taught by a graduate student who is no longer in the department and who was teaching a course in racial ambiguity, however achieved. Explain that no offence was intended, and what mattered in the course was cultural perception and fantasy, not factual medical details.

It would also help if we can get the stuff off the website.

Best, Cathy — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.32.65.220 (talk) 00:53, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

The topic is fascinating. The entry, on the other hand, is a POV mess. Also, I think there should be some information on intentional "passing" here. 71.154.4.121 (talk) 17:33, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

One Cleanup: Find Name of movie

The article says, "In another example, there was a movie where a Caucasian man took skin tanning pills to pose as African American so he could get a scholarship to college." Well, this movie sounds familiar, I think it was late 80s or early 90s, but does anyone know the name? DyslexicEditor 05:53, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I remember this movie as well. It is old as I remember not watching it in its entirety but it being on the movie network with my guess being around 1985. I am fairly confident it is a 1980's movie if that helps. --ShaunMacPherson 29 June 2005 12:43 (UTC)

With the help of smeghead from I2P he was able to come up with the name of the movie which was Soul Man from 1986 found here on the IMdb. I'll add it to the article. --ShaunMacPherson 29 June 2005 12:56 (UTC)

Page moved

I moved the page from Transracial to Transracial transformation, because an adjective by itself should not be used as an article title, and it looks like the page should have been called transracial transformation anyway, based on the first sentence in the article. --Idont Havaname 30 June 2005 19:48 (UTC)

Should it be racial transformation then, what is the trans in transracial? --ShaunMacPherson 3 July 2005 09:39 (UTC)

Transracial is the official term for Michael Jackson's racial transformation. WpediaIsNotPaper 3 July 2005 14:13 (UTC)

Racial transformation is an acceptable name to me, and it emphasizes that the article is not just about Michael Jackson. Google hits, for one, certainly favor it (900+ for "racial transformation", vs. 5 - one of which is this article - for "transracial transformation"). Maybe it would be best to call the article racial transformation, with the other as a redirect. Redirects are cheap, anyway. Any other thoughts on that? --Idont Havaname 3 July 2005 20:32 (UTC)

The current name (transracial transformation) is extremely redundant, IMO. --Thorns Among Our Leaves 9 July 2005 19:06 (UTC)

Page moved again!

Ok, now the page has been moved a second time, and I've fixed the redirects to transracial and Transracial transformation so that they all point here. So now hopefully most people are happy. If necessary, we can disambiguate Transracial to also include stuff like transracial adoption, if anyone creates an article on that. (If so, just let me know on my talk page and I'll fix the necessary links.) --Idont Havaname 19:33, 9 July 2005 (UTC)

How about other examples like Cher? A lot of people believe she has had extensive plastic surgery. Recent publicity photos show her with bleached blonde hair, blue eyes and lighter skin. Completely the opposite to her natural mediterranean looks. Not to mention she was concerned early in her career over the race factor on success.

I also have photos of some former Arabic oil merchant who went through extensive surgery after his divorce. He has appeared on a UK talk show. The photos suggest he wants to be a blonde Englishman. If anyone wants to see, let me know.

Also we should take note that Michael Jackson still has obvious signs of African-American appearance, notably the black hair and his black eyes. Unlike other African-Americans, he has never bleached his hair nor worn coloured contact lenses. This would be an obvious approach for someone truely transracial. He does not appear Caucasian due to his hair and eyes. He is arguably more Hispanic, Asian or Mediterranean in appearance than Caucasian.

Racism should be a big issue with this topic. Society and the media have long glamorised white people. Even to this day you will find blonde, blue eyed, white people commonly playing the lead roles in films and brunettes, Blacks, Asians etc playing mere supporting roles. Hip Hop and R&B music has glamorised African-American appearance, leading to something else.

My transformation

I am in the process of transitioning to Black, and have already started tattooing my skin brown. If I had the money, I would get surgeries to give me a flatter and broader nose, larger cheeks, and fuller lips. Breast and buttock implants may help. One of the hardest aspects is changing the accent of my voice. I have been at this for at least a year. I would not mind somehow documenting my experiences, and I am willing to help with this project.--74.124.187.76 (talk) 19:51, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Added Info

I added some information to the cosmetic sections. While it is arguable that whites may be looking for an ethnic appearance in tanning, it is really hard to apply duality to this matter (which looks like it being done). The reasons black people (especially in the Americas) have skin whitened as mentioned are for reasons of assimilation, changing racial identities, ect. The reasons whites are doing it (even if to look darker) rarely involves attempting to change their racial identity. Therefore, while they may be trying to alter their physical appearance, the intent of changing race or ethnicity generally isn't there.

i totally agree. I wanted to had a text about it, but someone changed it.

here is what I wanted to add:

Some consider tanning as an attempt to attain an ethnic skin color. However, tanning is a natural process, especially for European peoples in summer (unlike skin whitening, which is unnatural). What is more, European people who are willing to get a tan are never trying to adopt other non-eureopean features such as black eyes and hair (unlike some non-European people who also want to get straight hair, use color lenses and sometimes even ressort to surgery to erase their ethnic features). What is more, it is not widely promoted in magazines (mainly for health reasons) unlike white transformation in minority magazines and media. It is more a seasonnable fashion, since European people are not willing to keep their tan all year long but merely keep their natural skin color after summer, unlike whitening creams users who ressort to lightening products all year long.

I hope the person who removed it will come here and discuss, since I can perfectly explain it all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.167.84.2 (talk) 09:45, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Another point though is it isn't appropriate to say that people who are considered white can't have dark complexions. As though it is an ethnic feature. The definition of ethnic really can be open ended too. It doesn't necessarily mean non-white. As I mentioned there, many white southern Europeans and white Latin Americans have olive skin complexions (or what some call tan skin complexions). Tom72.185.162.37 (talk) 15:10, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Tanning

In the article it's said that tanning is a natural process... Yes, originally tanning is natural, but at the end of the day it's just a desired change of the optical appearance. Take a look at thousands of people visiting tanning salons every day: This has nothing more to do with a natural process. People are visiting solariums to change the colour of their skin. It does not only happen by accident when people stay in the sun for a possibly too long time, but it happens also intentionally thus I think it should be metionend. Also Consider, there are many tanning products availaible, not only sun tanning. Would anybody mind if I amended that? MrPalpatine (talk) 16:24, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

You are right about people who spend days in solariums, but this is far from being a generalized fashion: I see far more non-white people willing to change their hair and eyes colors (for European colors, of course!) than white people spending their whole YEAR in solariums. Most do is only a few hour before summer, to look like the already tanned people on the beach!

What is more, somebody has changed the part about the many other changes which clearly aim at becoming more European, apart from the skin-only issue. I don't understand the point of this removal, since the elements pointed out there are right: how many black celebs dye their hair or wear lenses? Let's compare it with white actresses or singers, and see if there is only one who is openly trying to look Black or Asian...

So I am putting it back, if someone disagree, let's talk about it here. Thanks! Elisheva 15:33, 23 July 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.167.84.2 (talk)

"Cleopatra played by a white actress"

Cleopatra was a North African. The US Census definition of white "people having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa". So, ancient Egyptians were white. Anyway, Cleopatra was of Greek descent, so even if ancient Egyptians weren't white, Greeks sure are, so Cleopatra was. So is having a "white actress" playing Cleopatra really a case of "racial transformation"? Of course, she probably had a Mediterranean appearance, and the actress who played her may have looked more Northern European — but is that a "racial" difference or a "subracial" difference? By at least some definitions of race, e.g. the US Government's definition, it was not a racial difference, just a subracial one. 60.225.114.230 (talk) 21:01, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Filipinos

The country of the Philippines is one of two examples I give on transracial identity: Filipinos are not east Asian, but are Asian by racial origins based on their presence in the Philippine Archipalego inhabited by Malayan peoples for thousands of years. The Philippines was also influenced and somewhat settled by later arrival European Spaniards for 450 years (1545-1898) and then came Anglo-Americans when the U.S. claimed the country from the Spanish-American war of 1899 to the end of World War II 1946. A good number of Filipinos have Chinese, Japanese, Spanish, Mexican, other European, Anglo-American, Arab, Malaysian, Hindu-Indian ancestry and in miniscule numbers the Negritos (ethnoracial relatives of dark-skinned Australoid/Aborigines) whom predate the Tagalog and Malay-Filipino races. Some Filipinos are lighter-skinned than most and others appear less Asiatic (i.e. the commonly found inner eyefold), some with Spanish surnames and American first names, and finally the language itself is part Spanish and mixed with other languages they came in contact with, esp. the prevalence of American English. There are Filipinos of upper-class elites pass as "white" or "East Asian" who think of themselves higher than local brown-skinned persons with little or no Spanish/European/American ancestry, esp. when they immigrate to Spain and the US. There are a few but sizable minority who are Muslims practice the Islamic faith whom resisted Catholic conversion contacts under the Spaniards, and the Protestant missionaries from the United States, and have more cultural ties with Malaysia or Indonesia, esp. in Palawan facing Borneo and Mindanao in the farthest south of the Philippine archipalego. 71.102.21.238 (talk) 11:48, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Chileans

A country identifies itself both European AND Amerindian, the majority of Chileans self-claim themselves as white Euro-Caucasian and have some deal of American Indian ancestry. In Latin America, they would be considered a "Castizo" society in contrast to their neighbors to the North (Peru is mostly Mestizo or 3/4th Amerindian, and Bolivia is overwhelmingly Amerindian), but across the Andes is Argentina plus Uruguay have a higher percentage of Caucasians than Chile does, therefore is not predominantly white. Upper-income Chileans are more likely to consider themselves white European, despite the evident indigenous ancestry and proud to be Chileans in an indigenous sense. The second example of transracialism makes the idea of race a more transfluid social construct, like Chileans living abroad may be "Latinos" or Latin Americans, but many identify with being "white" and more European oriented while they remain part of their native culture. The tendency for upper-class echolons in most Latin American countries to pass for white and want to become ethnoracially Caucasian is noticed, especially in Brazil where the saying goes "the Money makes people white, the lack of it makes people black" on white Brazilians are more prosperous and affluent, although the social definition of white and black in Brazil differs greatly from the USA. About half of Chile and Brazil as well are Caucasian, regardless if the person has any African and Amerindian ancestors, and the high rate of plastic surgery of upper-level people in Chile and South America to make them appear Germanic and/or Spanish is a sign of a society really desires to join the "western world". 71.102.21.238 (talk) 11:48, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Racial transformation

Racial transformation refers to change in demographic regions, people cannot change into different races. There were no sources for the topic people attempting to look like people of another race. If there are any reliable sources, then the topic of trying to make oneself look like another race may belong in Passing (racial identity) or as an article Trying to make oneself look like another race. Racial transformation, however, has long been a notable topic how demographic regions change racially over time. --I am One of Many (talk) 07:52, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Regardless of whether an argument is to be had on the notability of the topic as it was before you changed it, changing the topic altogether because its terminology collides with a term with which you are familiar is highly unusual behaviour, and as executed, your overhaul ignored the article's entailment in the Body Modification project. There is plenty of precedent for articles explaining terms that are used in multiple contexts or otherwise; a dogmatic insistence that a term ought to mean only one thing is poor practice. We should put the stub you have made into the old article, or we should split and disambiguate them. Sceth (talk) 08:02, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

The fundamental problem is that Racial transformation as developed in the original article is made up. There is not such thing as a person transforming into another race. I would be happy to move the original article to Trying to make oneself look like another race, however. I am One of Many (talk) 08:19, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

SSCI2831

AndrewHamsha (talk) 17:08, 12 March 2015 (UTC)HamshaAndrew (talk) 17:18, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Merge

I removed the merge tag that was recently added to the page. The reason I removed the tag is because the user who added it did not suggest where it should be merged. I'm happy to talk about some merge options but let's not restore the tag until we discuss. Meatsgains (talk) 00:25, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Talk page

This talk page needs to be merged into Ethnic plastic surgery, somehow it didn't get moved when the page did.--Prisencolin (talk) 01:40, 27 August 2016 (UTC)