Talk:Racial policy of Nazi Germany/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Student paper?

Is it just me, or does it seem like this entire article was a copied word-for-word from a student essay for Ethics class? Even if not, it sounds too much like one, so I edited it a bit to make it sound like an encyclopedia entry. Kakashi-sensei 02:36, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

This article is very misleading, why not title it "racial policy of the general gov't during world war 2 as dictated by the Soviets and Americans"

This article is incredibly misleading. First, it doesn't even resemble the true german "race theory". Why not cite actuall documents like "Glauben und Kampfen" , and describe what it was like in germany before the war. Presenting the "general gov't" as being some kind of a planned envisage of 1000 years to come is absolute non-sense. Why if this was his evily contrived plan were they trying to make peace with france and england with the beleif that they would agree cede to the germans demand of danzig? Surely they wouln't have kept all of poland under the "general gov't" if there was a treaty signed to pull out! christ, it's absolute rubbish. and yet you have people explaining propaganda as thoroughly engrained into the nazi's psyche, when clearly it wasn't, it was propaganda! They told the germans's they were superior for the same reason the commissars told the russians the nazi's thought they were inferior, when infact both were highly twisted by the other so as to create bitter conflict between the ancient enemies, since it was the war of total anhilation and was absolutely imperative to have such hate. It's very clear the germans had seen the russians as being taken over and oppressed by the asiatic jewish communist movement, which was what the wehrmacht justified it as well. Just read some of the many letters written by soldiers on the eastern front explaining to family at home the downtrodden situation of the so called "workers paradise" clearly emapathizing greatly with the "untermesche" as being fellow european aryans under the yoke of jewish bolshevism.

The above statement shows an utter lack of understanding of the political, and perhaps more importantly, economic imparatives that faced the Third Reich. The period of rapid militarization through which the Nazi's had taken the country, had left the economy on the brink of ruin. The invasion of France might not have been seriously considered by a few indivigual soldiers, but for you to doubt Hitler's goal of capturing France is revissionism at its worst. Hitler didn't just plan to capture and France when the war was declared, he had planned it from the time he re-militarized the Reich. There was simply no other way to pay for the country, then by raiding the economies of other countries. While it is true he probably would have preferred to expand his empire to the east first, make no mistake all of Europe was his goal. Fieldinj 20:14, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Merge tag

I removed the merge tag from "The Nuremberg Laws". It has been sitting there from the time the Nuremberg Laws article was split off. -- Petri Krohn 01:23, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

"hereditary asocial"

Can somebody describe this term? What does it mean?--I'll bring the food 15:42, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Moved passage

I moved this: "The origins of the policy lay with the Dolchstoßlegende ("betrayal legend"), whereby disgruntled German nationalists blamed non-Germans for the loss of World War I. The Nazis exploited these sentiments and later developed them into the "Nuremberg laws"."

This is a questionable interpretation. What is to be understood by "the origins of the policy lay with the Dolchstoßlegende"? This "betrayal legend" may be cited, but to call it the "origin" of the Nazis racial policies is a bit akward. There is much debate about the "origins" and historical "causes" of these racial policies. Tazmaniacs 12:16, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

The statement you removed is shallow in the extreme; it is also unconsciously racist. Some of the people blamed for the 'stab in the back' legend were indeed Jewish; but they also happened to be German. It was the Nazis who separated Jewish people from the German national community as a whole. White Guard 00:06, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Rhineland Bastards section

I removed this statement

• Despite this there was never any systematic attempt to eliminate the black population of Germany, though mixed marriage remained illegal.

because it contradicts the previous statements

• Of particular concern to the Nazi scientist Eugen Fischer were the "Rhineland Bastards": mixed-race offspring of black soldiers who had been stationed in the Rhineland as part of the French army of occupation. He believed that these people should be sterilised in order to protect the racial purity of the German population. At least 400 mixed-race children were forcibly sterilised in the Rhineland by 1938, while 400 others were sent to concentration camps.

Notice in bold the contradictions. If you still dispute this, let me clarify it for you, so in case you are as dense as a rock it's crystal clear.

• At least 400 mixed-race children were forcibly sterilised

contradicts the statement

• never any systematic attempt

Do not revert. --Zaphnathpaaneah 06:40, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

In addition the "Rhineland Bastards" article also refutes the statement "never any systematic attempt" with the following

• The program began in 1937, when local officials were asked to report on all "Rhineland Bastards" under their jurisdiction. All together, some 400 children of mixed parentage were arrested and sterilized. This order only applied in the Rhineland. Hans Massaquoi, a German-Liberian from Hamburg, wrote in his autobiography that mixed raced Rhinelanders were rounded up and exterminated in Nazi death camps.

I happen to study this, there were only 3000 Black and mixed people in the Rhineland at that time, which would be equivalent to about 1000 families. Since about 800 children were sterilized/concentration camped, that comes to about the same number. It is misleading therefore to say "there was no systematic attempt".

I conclude that the previous wording was done by someone who wants us to think that the black population of Germany was not marked for destruction as the Jews and others were. The blacks were also, make no mistake. Sometimes contributors have a kind of anti-black bias that revolves around inappropriately implying black favoritism where none actually existed. Rhineland BASTARDS? Do not revert doubly so! --Zaphnathpaaneah 06:46, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

• Despite this there was never any systematic attempt to eliminate the black population of Germany, though mixed marriage remained illegal.

For something to be illegal means that it is part of a systematic attempt to elimate it. Marriage was considered the legitimate form of continuing procreation and families. The sentance even refuted itself. THREE reasons not to revert it. --Zaphnathpaaneah 06:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The statement was accurate and there was no contradiction. The point is that while all Jews were eliminated from the German population, all black people were not. This is a fact. You weren't arrested and sent to Auschwitz simply because you were black. Black people continued to live openly in Nazi Germany. Mixed marriage was illegal. No one is saying that Nazi Germany was paradise for black people, but it is false to suggest that there was any real comparison to the treatment of Jews. Mixed marriage was illegal, not marriage. Black people could legally marry each other and have children. Paul B 20:46, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Um, so were Jews. Jews were allowed to marry Jews.

Non-Aryans

Let's not get confused about the difference between non-Aryans and non-Nordics. The Sorbs were not "non-Aryans", but in some cases were characterised as non-Nordics. The Aryan Laws were directed against Jews, and only secondarily included other people who could be characterised as non-Aryan, usually through legal rulings interpreting the law, rather than direct legislation. Racial policies directed against Serbs and other non-Nordics did not arise from the Nuremberg laws but from wartime resettlement policies designed to increase the German populations in conquered areas. These were based partly on language and culture but also on Nordicist anthropometrics. There's a good case for including a section on this issue. Paul B 21:34, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Plagirization?

I'm not entirely sure if this is an issue, but I noticed that the "1933 to 1940" section is almost a direct copy of another website. Other parts may be the same as well. This is the website in question: http://www.answers.com/topic/racial-policy-of-nazi-germany

This is not cited as a source in the article. Could anyone explain this? If it's nothing, just delete this thread. L.Crono 00:05, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Amnswers.com is a copy of Wikipedia. All its articles copy ours. Paul B 08:05, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

african germans

is this just trying to be politically correct? i found it very confusing, I'm assuming it refers to black people. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.70.36.204 (talk) 15:45, 12 May 2007 (UTC).

Why is it any more confusing than African Americans would be, or "Jewish Germans"? Paul B 17:19, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Order of importance of ethnic groups

This stuff really needs citations:

• Germans from Germany (Reichdeutsche) - Nordic Germans are said most favorable, but all German citizens are in the top category.
• Germans from outside, active ethnic Germans, honorary "Aryans" from axis European countries in Volksliste category 1 and 2 (see Volksdeutsche).
• Germans from outside, passive Germans and members of families, handicapped, political dissidents, common criminals in Volksliste category 3 and 4.
• Other Germanic peoples closely related to Germans (Norwegians, Danes, Swedes, and Dutch) but treated as categories 1 and 2 in most privileges, especially pro-Nazi sympathizers).
• Spaniards, Basques and Italians (Northern regional Italian groups from Tuscany or Lombardy and Spaniards treated as category 1 and 2, but darker-skinned Sicilians and southern regional Italian groups treated as least. May include Greeks also).
• Britons from the British islands. Includes Irish, Scots and Welsh (The English would be treated as Germanic people)
• French people in France (except German speaking Alsatians, and pro-Nazi French supporters in categories 1 and 2).
• Highlanders (Goralenvolk): an attempt to split the Polish nation by using local collaborators.
• Poles, Czechs and Slovaks (include non-Germans: Estonians, Lithuanians and Finns from the Baltic states).
• Hungarians, Albanians and Croats (may include Serbs of non-Jewish faiths, Romanians and Bulgarians).
• Ukrainians, Russians and Belarusians (may include Ruthenians and Armenians).

Enemy nationals who happened to fall under the "Aryan" racial category, but were living in Germany at the time, were treated with suspicion by legal restrictions. Non-Aryan allies of the Nazi government could be classified as honorary Aryans.

--h i s ^{s p a c e} _{r e s e a r c h} 11:23, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I asked for a source for this back in January (see above). I got no reply about the source from the ip who added it. See "Nazi race policy" section. Paul B 11:29, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

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Unsourced claim about Hans Asperger

Racial policy of Nazi Germany #1933 to 1940 contained this unsourced claim, which was introduced by this change from an IP address:

It's well-documented on Nazi State hospitals studied autistic adult patients and how one doctor, Hans Asperger discovered Asperger's Syndrome from his research to the neurological disorder as part of the Nazis' plan to exterminate the mentally disabled.

However, Hans Asperger wrote in his original 1944 paper on Asperger syndrome (as translated by Frith):

We are convinced, then, that autistic people have their place in the organism of the social community. They fulfil their role well, perhaps better than anyone else could, and we are talking of people who as children had the greatest difficulties and caused untold worries to their care-givers.

Frith comments on this passage as follows:

The historical background to this passionate defence of the social value of autism was the very real threat of Nazi terror which extended to killing mentally handicapped and socially deviant people.

These two quotes are taken from pages 89–90 of: Asperger H; tr. and annot. Frith U (1991). "'Autistic psychopathy' in childhood". In Frith U (ed.). Autism and Asperger syndrome. Cambridge University Press. pp. 37–92. ISBN 0-521-38608-X. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |origdate= ignored (|orig-date= suggested) (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

Given Asperger's evident opposition to the Nazi policies with respect to autism, the unsourced claim seems implausible, so I removed it. Someone with more expertise in this area may want to look at all the changes introduced around that time by that IP address; if one part was questionable, others might be as well. Eubulides (talk) 03:00, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

According to this article in German by Brita Schirmer from 2002 Autismus und NS-Rassengesetze in Österreich 1938: Hans Aspergers Verteidigung der »autistischen Psychopathen« gegen die NS-Eugenik (Autism and Nazi-Race laws in Austria 1938: Hans Aspersgers defence of the "autistic psychopaths" against Nazi eugenics), Asperger had discovered and published the syndrom allready in a lecture in 1938, after the unification of Austria and the German Reich, but before the Gesetz zur Verhütung erbkranken Nachwuchses (Law for the Prevention of Hereditarilly Diseased Offspring) which was enacted in Germany in 1934 would be enacted in Austria in 1940. Schirmers article is written in defence of Asperger. Indeed there is no reason to doubt that his intention was to protect his patients against sterilization and euthanasia. On the other hand, Asperger adopted rethorics and rational of the Nazis to explain his point of view.

"Wieviel können wir für diese Menschen leisten? soll die Frage sein. Und wenn wir mit all unserer Hingabe ihnen helfen, so tun wir damit auch unserem Volk den besten Dienst; nicht nur dadurch, daß wir verhindern, daß jene durch ihre dissozialen und kriminellen Taten die Volksgemeinschaft belasten, sondern auch dadurch, daß wir zu erreichen suchen, daß sie als arbeitende Menschen ihren Platz in dem lebendigen Organismus des Volkes ausfüllen." (Quote by Asperger, taken from Schirmer's article)

"The question should be: How much can we do for these humans? And when we help them with all our devotion, than we also do the best service to our people; not only by preventing that those burden the people's community through their dissocial and criminal acts, but also by trying to achieve that they occupy their place in the living organism of the people."

Here A. justifies the care for autistic persons not by their value as individuals but by the valuable role which they could play for the people's community.

In another quote, A. describes another type of psychopaths as almost the opposite of autism: while their abstract intelligence is developed below the average, their practical reason, their instinct, their usability and their values of temper are developed much better.

"Diese letzten Fälle sind wichtig – oder werden es bei uns werden, wenn das ‚Gesetz zur Verhütung erbkranken Nachwuchses’ auch bei uns in Kraft tritt. Wird der Arzt als Begutachter in solchen Fällen vor eine Entscheidung gestellt, so wird er diese nicht allein nach dem Ergebnis der Beantwortung eines Fragebogens oder nach der Ziffer des Intelligenzquotienten treffen dürfen, sondern in erster Linie nach seiner Kenntnis der kindlichen Persönlichkeit, eine Kenntnis, die alle Fähigkeiten des Kindes, nicht nur die abstrakte Intelligenz in Rechnung stellt."

"Those cases are, or will become important for us, when the 'Law for the Prevention of Hereditarilly Diseased Offspring' will be enacted here, too. If the doctor is posed to a decision as an expert in such cases, then he won't take it solely by the answering of a questionaire, or by the figure of the Intelligence Quotient, but first of all by his knowledge of the infantil personality, a knowledge which takes into account all of the children's abilities, not just the abstract intelligence."

A. does not oppose doctors giving expertises about patients, but reminds them to carefully apply their professional knowledge.

Schirmer justifies A. as a defender of the patients against the fascists, by noting that at the time of 1938, the adherents of euthanasia were allready very present and active at the Vienna university too, which forced him to argue from a defensive position in the public.

--Schwalker (talk) 15:48, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Wow, thanks for all that research. The most natural interpretation of these quotes is that Asperger was arguing as forcefully as he could, within the constraints imposed by the Nazi terror, that his patients should be spared. This rejects the claim that Asperger was "part of the Nazis' plan to exterminate the mentally disabled". Eubulides (talk) 21:40, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Cleaned-up a bit, but this article is still an almost total mess

How about almost not mentioning Jews 1940-45 (even Final Solution is mentioned once and not even linked)? How about not copy-pasting stuff from the other, already exisiting articles? Or not fixating on the one's nationalist agendas? Maybe I should rather place "rewrite" tag. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 10:21, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

By cleaning up if you mean delete everything then yes you did clean it up, stop going around and deleting everything you seeAheadnovel55 (talk) 17:15, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Stop going around and reverting everything you see. And welcome to Wikipedia. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 18:39, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

interwiki

Other wikies were about Nazi term Rassenschande (racial defilement), not about Nazi Racial policy. So I deleted them. Jón Þórunn (talk) 09:35, 24 June 2008 (UTC).

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Native (Aboriginal) Americans (Amerinds)

I know I've read some author quote Hitler from something he told someone close to him, that he considered Native Americans "Honorary Aryans", was it an author such as Timothy W. Ryback? I think it was an earlier author still who so claimed it, because I read it some many years ago. I know it did however have speculation (the author so quoting Hitler) that he was influenced to make such a statement due to influence from the works of Karl May idealizing their culture. Though it was not assumed he thought so from that, I know it was a quote about that fact of their "racial worth" unambiguously. 4.255.48.81 (talk) 19:28, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Nazi Race policy

An anonymous editor has made a number of unreferenced edits to the page in which claim that the Nazis produced a systematic racial hierarchy at the bottom of which were

"Hungarians, Serbs and Croats (may include Albanians of non-Jewish faiths, Romanians and Bulgarians).

Italians (Northern regional groups from Tuscany or Lombardy on top, but darker-skinned Sicilians and southern regional groups treated as least)."

In fact the Nazis were in alliances with Hungary, Italy, Croatians, Romanians etc. What "scholarly" race theorisers may have thought is one thing, but actual policy is something else. Please provide evidence that the Nazis discriminated against their allies in the way you claim. Paul B 08:21, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

For now, keep the new edits...it also signified why the anti-Nazi resistance (In France, the Free French Forces or Le Resistance Francaise, and the Yugoslavian Partisans under Josip Tito) in these countries developed over time, when the Nazis became powerful and widely disliked, because Nazi officials have regarded their subjects in Eastern and Southern Europe, even they were part of the pro-Nazi Axis pact, aren't "superior" enough in the eyes of Nazi racial policy. + 63.3.14.1 06:44, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

But we need actual evidence, not just assumption. Nazi Germany had, for example, a very longstanding alliance with Hungary despite the fact that it is technically "non-Aryan" in the linguistic sense - a fact which seems to have had no actual effect on the relations between the two countries. Likewise, the Italian army was, afaik, not separated into "good" troops from the north and "bad" troops from the south. Given that the French are in Western Europe and that the very name "France" derives from the Franks - a German tribe - I don't see how your argument adds up. The same is true of Norway, which had an active resistence movement, but which Nordicist theory placed at the top of the race hierarchy. Paul B 07:18, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

My point is at times the Nazis turned against people, even their own German citizens. When Hitler committed suicide rather to face defeat by the Soviets in April/May 1945, he send an order to close off Germany, then said into wanting to destroy Germany and starve every one of his own people to death. Hitler agreed with most racial anthropology on all European peoples are from the same "Aryan" or Indo-European stock, but not equally the same.

I can offer abit of proof on Heinrich Himmler, Alfred Rosenberg and Adolf Eichmann made personal comments on the possible "inferiority" of their subjects (i.e. on the "gibbon" appearance of French, Sicilians and North Africans) in Eastern and Southern Europe, since Hitler assumed in many occasions that Semites (Arabs), Slavs (Poles), Hungarians and "Tartars" from the east are "backward, unhygienic and docile".

Of course the Nazi racial policy put Scandinavians high on the list, as well the Germanic Dutch and though Britain wasn't occupied (thank goodness), the British (since Anglo-saxons came from Lower Germany in the 8th century, and the great worldwide British empire "dominated" the dark-skinned peoples of Africa, India/south Asia and elsewhere) are placed in the top category, but Great Britain is an enemy and all British in Germany are "enemy nationals".

Hitler actually admired the "racial selective nature" of the development of North America and Australasia, began as English/British colonies included Northern or western European immigrants (esp. Germans, Swedes, Scots and Irish he refered them as "Aryans" or high-ranked "Nordics"), but Hitler scorned Italians, Poles and Greeks "are lesser peoples" and read much on the Ku Klux Klan, a hate group who had Nazi sympathizers as the two distant political fringes equally hated Jews, Communists and non-whites (Africans).

But in later years, Hitler wrote in his rough draft notes about the racial rise and fall of America: because of "Jewish Russians", "too many Negroes ran loose when they were freed from slavery", American Indians he said are "lower savages destroyed by white settlement", and negatively said "Chinese yellows" and "Mexican browns" threaten the "white Aryan" racial fabric build by "the best, strongest and highest selected Europeans to what the United States (or America) became". I believe he worried on changes of US immigration laws in 1924 will make the US very powerful and threaten a remilitarized Germany.

Hitler's ill-spirited statements are indeed very racist and shown Hitler's deep hatred of the US and mankind. The Nazis hated democracy, moderation and equality of people, no matter what race or religion the person belonged to. If these additions in the article are myths, rumors or speculation, I say the edits shall be deleted or examined carefully to get rewritten in a better detail. The most reliable source is right from Hitler's book Mein Kampf. + 63.3.14.1 07:49, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

No one, of course, is denying that Hitler was a racist! Nor is anyone denying that the Nazis theorised about superior and inferior poeples and that this affected attitudes towards different nations. You really don't need to inform me where Anglo-Saxons came from. The question is where and when this actually defined policy, and if so how. Hitler, Rosenberg et al did, of course, think that southern Italians were inferior to the Lombards (less Nordic), but that's quite different from saying that there was any specific discrimination against them. Mussolini's Italy had very different ideas about race (see Gilette, Racial Theories in Fascist Italy). Hitler's problem with the Italian army was its incompetence, not its racial make up. That's what decided how Italian and German troops were integrated in North Africa. In Hungary there was even a Turanian Society that was parallel to the Aryanist Thule Society, but instead of being at daggers drawn - as 'racial theory' should dictate - they were in effect allied in their ethno-nationalist ideology. Whatever some theoretical hierarchy might say, Hitler needed support and troops from fellow-fascists. He wasn't going to present Horthy and Mussolini with a list putting Hungarians and Italians at the bottom of a hierarchy and telling them to like it! That's what we need here, a sense where and when racial theory and actual policy both meshed and diverged. We also need sources for this list. Where does it come from? Paul B 08:56, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I have been doing some reading on the matter, and the Nazis originally often said they approved of the English race, until the war broke out. However, before the war, Hitler commented on Lowland Scots (who he treated as Germanic) and Gallic (Highland) scots, the latter of which he deemed lower than the former. Perhaps this should be mentioned? Spacevezon (talk) 18:19, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

What on earth is the point of this deluded rant ? The British were considered second rate Germanic mongrels , remember that the Anglo-saxons took over most of Britain along with the Romans ... and what is all of this stuff about Hitler identifying with the KKK , there's even an German propaganda poster out there that mocks this group ..... sadly you seem to be seeking approval from Hitler on behalf of the English Wernergerman (talk) 20:02, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Americans were considered to be " decadent mongrels " and not " Nordic " - please correct the following passage

The following passage is inaccurate . Also regarding the usage of " white - Aryan " - the former is a term used in the US while the latter is an English loanword and has ambiguities ; the original Nazi categorization of ethnic groups is more specifically organized i.e. " white " and " Aryans " are American and British concepts respectively . By using these terms one is abandoning a strict and factually based interpretation of these events that happened in Nazi Germany . The German endeavor to categorize ethnic groups is distinctly unique and politically Eurocentric in purpose then is the English which are more oriented outside of Europe .

" Enemy nationals who happened to fall under the white "Aryan" racial category (i.e. the United States of America and Canada), but were living in Germany at the time, were treated with suspicion by legal restrictions. But enemy nationals of non-European "Aryan" racial categories (i.e. Ethiopia and Argentina) are treated much differently.[citation needed] "

Americans were simply dismissed as " mongrels " and were not included in the extensive scrutiny of ethnic categorization by the Nazis . The term " mongrel " , while seemingly a generalization , was meant to describe the majority group of Caucasians that were administering the country at the time ... " Negroids " was the term used to describe people who were of mixed Caucasian and African descent e.g. Hitler identified Roosevelt's wife as a " Negroid " .

Regarding the following passage

" Jews-divided into various degrees of religious denomination, Mischlinge or of half/part-Jewish ancestries (esp. of one Jewish parent, highly illegal under the race laws) and Rassenschande or "Aryan" Germans found as converts into Judaism. "Untermenschen" (lit. "Under-human"). It included the Gypsies/Roma, also subject to extermination during Porrajmos. Includes minuscule numbers of darker-skinned German nationals: non-whites from colonial African, Middle Eastern, Asiatic and Latin American origin - if of evident non-European ancestries, residing in Germany at the time. Homosexuals and disabled people (based on physical and mental illnesses) were also considered to be part of this category, and subject to eugenics policies, including compulsory sterilization, internment and deportation. Also non Slavic Russians (i.e of Turkic/Caucasian/Central Asian and Siberian/East Asian origins) were listed. "

Sources are needed , this small passage includes groups that are not identified within the entire Wikipedia article " Untermenschen " nor within the actual " Der Untermenschen " . Please do not quote texts that are English or American interpretations which are often skewed .... please quote original German sources . Wernergerman (talk) 20:04, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Not enough focus on "Other Non-Aryans"

As much as I find this article informative, it doesn't really indicate other discriminatory taken by the Third Reich against groups other than Jews. I mean the Jews did constitute the larger number of people who were persecuted and subsequently killed. Everybody knows about how the Jews suffered, yet hardly any people know of how other groups suffered, such as Roma, or Poles and Slavs. I think the article doesn't need to edit any of the parts about Jews, rather extend the parts of the article about non-Jews. Ahadland 13:20, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

To repeat the point above, we have to be clear about the meaning of "non-Aryan" in Nazi legislation. Slavs and Poles are not non-Aryan. They are non-German and, subject to anthropmetric evaluation, probably non-Nordic. Also non-Aryans could be given the position of Honorary Aryan, meaning that the legal restrictions on non-Aryans did not apply to them. Roma, though literally of Aryan extraction, were given the exception of being as-it-were honorary non-Aryans, being excluded from that staus in 1937. Paul B 13:30, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree, I came to this article in the hopes to learn more abou spanish, african, and oriental oppression in nazi germany. Only wound up with a few points on the matter. Would love to see more on this. Debeo Morium 06:11, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

The number of Spanish and African people in Nazi Germany was miniscule and orientals weren't distinguished due to the Honorary Aryan status of the Japanese ( c'mon how are you going to tell them apart from other orientals ? ) . Wernergerman (talk) 22:05, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Man folk

I have an issue. In the lead it says this "...in a racial hierarchy that placed the Herrenvolk (or "master race")..." but when I look at "herrenvolk" I see "man folk" or "male folk". I have checked this on wiktionary to see and it agrees with me when I type in herren and volk but when i type in herrenvolk there is no mention of man or folk, the only thing it says is "master race". Whatever people may be accustomed to saying it is quite clearly a reference to "man folk" and I cannot see how I can understand something if it has been significantly altered or obscured. Obviously it's a touchy kind of subject and not exactly what I am fond of, but when I do take an interest I do prefer to trust when I am given the truth, whole and with little added, just like a document of law as all history should probably be. I am assuming that this mistranslation is commonplace and suggesting that it not be so here. When I see someone continuing to twist something that is already twisted I tend to blame them equally or even more so than whoever twisted first. Was Eve bad for asking Adam to be like her, which is a common take on the matter, or was Adam actually worse for setting a bad example and letting her think that he could not be different, but anyway. It should be fixed I think. Surely such connotations are relevant to the womens liberation movements of those times. ~ R.T.G 06:52, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Iranians and South Asians in Nazi Germany

While it is true to say that the Nazis did acknowledge the 'Aryan' heritage or Indo-Iranian peopes, I am quite sure that the section on them being regarded "Aryan" by their standards would seem to be false. There were some Indians living in Nazi Germany at the time (mostly as students) but it is untrue to say that they were granted 'Honorary Aryan' priveliges that the Japanese were. Indians in Nazi Germany were ofcourse not targeted for steralisation and extermination either. As seen in other articles, Gypsies were also a racial dilhemma for the Nazis too. Apart from 'race' it was also class and social prejudice against them. It would seem absurd to target German Gypsies for extermination and exclude them as 'Aryans' and give a preference to Indo-Iranian peoples if we consider that Romani and Sinti are now established as a European race and would have more German and European DNA than a full blooded South/Central Asian. Please feel free to comment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.221.255.158 (talk) 13:54, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Racial Policy vs. Racial Research

The photo that accompanies the article really has nothing whatsoever to do with "racial policy." It's a woman conducting research. The inclusion of that photo creates the impression that there were hair-splitting distinctions in the racial policy of the Third Reich, and that's really far from the case. Your Buddy Fred Lewis (talk) 06:46, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

interracial sex became illegal

No it did not. The law when read in it's original (and from newspapers that commented on it at the time.) says "extra-marital" sex between Aryans and Non-Aryans is banned, except for Jews. Jews were banned from sex/intimate relationships with German non-Aryans and Aryans alike married or not married.

So as long as the "Aryan" was not married, it was not illegal.

Furthermore If you were a "Non-Aryan" you could only marry a Jew on a certain condition... you yourself had recent Jewish ancestry. If you did not or it was too far back in your line, only by special permission.

Foreigners could marry Jews in Germany.

Also the "mixed" marriage thing needs another source. I can find no copy of the racial laws that prohibited mixed marriages between anyone other than Jews and Non-Jews. Or Jews and "Gentiles." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.138.198.179 (talk) 22:13, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Blacks

Nazi Germany was generally indifferent to blacks. They went to school and worked. There was never an official policy to "exterminate" the blacks other than the Rhineland bastards; not because they were black but because Hitler hated the French and the idea of African French troops having children with German Women that were raped. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.138.198.179 (talk) 22:22, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm removing that part of the Article. Someone should re-write as what happened historically. The "Rhineland" bastards were sterilized. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.138.198.179 (talk) 22:24, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Even the Holocaust Museum states the same "However, there was no systematic program for their (blacks)elimination as there was for Jews and other groups." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.138.198.179 (talk) 23:56, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Interracial Sex part 2

Also the source that claimed that interracial sex between partners (unless Roma, Jew, Slav) who were not married was illegal in the Third Reich was the Holocaust museum.

This claim is no longer considered correct according to the new information and stories from people who lived during the period pertaining to mixed-marriages, sex, and relationships that occurred in the third Reich.

In fact, the claim has been deleted from the website. http://www.ushmm.org/outreach/nlawchr.htm

So please, do not source a book which sourced a claim which is no longer considered valid/historical by the original source/claimant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.138.198.179 (talk) 00:13, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Can someone fix this?

I am unsure what is meant by this sentence, so I cannot fix the horrible grammar. Please someone take a look at this?

On the night of November 9, the SS conducted "the Night of Broken Glass" ("Kristallnacht"), in which the storefronts of Jewish shops and offices were by confiscating 20% of every Jew's property.

There is a verb missing. Shops and offices were what? broken into? Nokota (talk) 22:03, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Wasn't sure quite what was meant originally - have completed the sentence with info from the Kristallnacht article. Hope it's OK. RashersTierney (talk) 22:32, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

RfC

BAn RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 17:12, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Policies regarding Poles and Russians

The "Russian" victim were frequently Ukrainian.Xx236 (talk) 06:19, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Recent addition removed

I have removed material recently added about the Irish, Welsh, and Scots. These groups are not mentioned in the cited source, and the British are not mentioned either. Here's a quotation from the source:

At the top stood the so-called 'Aryan Master Race', which was identified with

Germans and other Germanic peoples including the Dutch, the Scandinavians

and the English. (source: Norman Davies, Europe at War 1939-1945: No Simple Victory, page 167)

Please don't re-add this material without adding a source that mentions these peoples. -- Diannaa (talk) 15:15, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Article is bullcrap

1) Show one quote in which the Nazis said Slavs were not Aryan. 2) Show evidence that it was only Germanic people considered to be Aryan. 3) Show evidence that Poles and Russians were regarded as a "racial inferior group". 4) Show evidence that only Nordic people were considered to be Germanised.

This article is absolute bullcrap, Slavs were regarded as Aryan not at the bottom like Jews and Gypsies and it was not only people who were deemed as Nordic that underwent Germanisation.--Gordon Yawny (talk) 09:28, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

"Interracial sex became illegal"

This is incorrect. Sex with a Jew, Slav or Roma was illegal. If a German man or Woman had sexual relations with an Arab, or Asian or African, it was not illegal. So, not all interracial sex was illegal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.246.232.41 (talk) 03:26, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Nazi Germany's view of Slavs/Russians - the reality and the myth

It is littered in this article that the Nazis viewed Slavs in general and Russians in particular as sub-human. This is simply not the case. The Third Reich did not struggle with Slavdom, but with the threat Bolshevism [posed] to the foundations of European Civilization. Incidentally, to this day, not one official German document from that time has been published, in which the Slavs are called a “race of sub-humans,” something which devoted warriors of anti­ fascism like to broadcast. By “sub-humans,” in the anthropological sense of the word, Himmler’s department was referring to Bolshevik commissars, like Lev Mekhlis, and open racists like Ilya Ehrenburg, an instigator who hid behind the backs of Russian soldiers, shouting “Kill the Germans!” — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.233.230.125 (talk) 12:52, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

New comments go at the bottom. I'm not sure what you are getting at with your comments on lya Ehrenburg, ("an instigator who hid behind the backs of Russian soldiers, shouting “Kill the Germans!"). Since the Germans had invaded his country, I fail to see why this "instigation" should be considered racist, or even surprising. If you are referring to an incitement to kill ethnically German civilians, I think that's far for likely to derive from the brutal politics of the situation than racism. On the main issue, there is abundant evidence that Nazi racial theorists considered Slavs to be on the whole inferior, racially, to Germans. Of course they were still Aryans, and there were various theories about degrees of racial admixture and "superior" types among the Slavs. As usual, Nazis adapted their theories to suit their military and politic needs and to provide a pseudo-scientific veneer to justify writing off the lives of millions of people when it suited them. Paul B (talk) 14:12, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Paul, would you care to quote some Nazi racial theorists views on Slavs? As far as I am aware the Nazis viewed all Europeans as racially the same "Aryan". One of the leading Nazi racial theorists Hans F. K. Günther certainly did not have anything against Slavs, nor did Rosenberg (in fact Rosenberg mentioned it to Hitler and Himmler his view about the treatment non-Jewish Europeans were receiving in occupied territory). Perhaps some Nazis no doubt including Hitler was not happy at the Russians allowing the Bolsheviks to rule over them but as far as I know he still regarded Slavs as Aryan, Slavs could still be citizens of the Reich, still have sexual relations and marriages with Germans (although "race defilement" to Germans was extended to all sexual relations with foreigners including other Aryans). The Nuremberg racial laws certainly considered Slavs to be Aryans like you have pointed out.

In regards to Russians being called subhumans, what about the Posen speech of 1943 by Himmler?

"We want to show the English, the Americans, and the Russian sub-humans that we are tougher; that we, precisely we, the SS, will be those who stand forever."[1]--Windows66 (talk) 10:36, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm somewhat confused. You say the Nazis considered Slavs to be equal with other Aryans, and then you quote Himmler saying Russians are sub-human. As for Hitler, he pontificates about the inferiority of the Slavic "racial soul" at some length in the Zweites Buch (chapter 11). As for Gunther, "Slavic" is not a racial category in his typology, he thinks Russians are mostly "east Baltic" with "Asiatic" elements. Here is the great man's thinking on the subject:

Of far-reaching importance for the East Baltics, there then came the meeting with Nordic tribes and peoples -- above all, with the Nordic proto-Slavs, who took with them East Baltics wherever they settled. As the Nordic upper layer disappeared, the appearance of the Slav peoples (except the South Slavs) was more and more determined by East Baltic characteristics. It may be assumed that among the North and West Slavs by about the twelfth century the East Baltic race was predominant through the weight of numbers born. Meanwhile in these peoples the East Baltics had given up their Finnish-Ugrian speech in favour of Slav (that is, Indo-European) tongues, so that to-day only the Finns and Esthonians and the peoples akin to them in Northeast Europe still speak their original tongues, as also the Magyars, an originally East Baltic people, with their home probably about the middle Volga. The Magyars still clearly show the East Baltic blood, but since their entry into Hungary (in the ninth century A.D.) have taken up much Alpine, Dinaric, and Nordic, with some Mediterranean blood. On the whole, the predominantly East Baltic peoples have shown themselves to be not very creative. The Finns, too, who have a richly developed culture, owe, like the Slavs, their creative achievements rather to the Nordic upper layer in their peoples. (The Racial Elements of European History, Chapter VII)

So whatdaya know? Anything good among the Slavs comes from Nordic invaders who imported the IE languages. Paul B (talk) 17:14, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Well officially under Nazi racial policy the Slavs were considered Aryans just the same as Germans. Himmler also called Russians "Aryans" in the pamphlet The SS as an Anti-Bolshevist Fighting Organization that was published in 1936: "in diesem gepeinigten arischen Volk" or in English "in this tormented Aryan people". I've not actually read Hitler's second book so I cannot give anything on that, what does he say do you have any exact quotes you can show?

What Imeant with Gunther is that he also classified other Aryans besides Germans, including the Slavs.

As far as I know the only things the Nazis feared was the fertility of the Slavs and nothing else, certainly not a racial matter. No official NSDAP Nazi propaganda shows anything remotely anti-Slavic in all the archives of posters, speeches and slogans that I have read over the years. What is certain without a doubt is that several Nazis hated Slavs with a passion (Hitler not so much) but for example Himmler's view on Slavs can be summed up in these two speeches by him:

This is a war of ideologies and fighting races. On one side stands National Socialism: ideology based on the values ​​of our German, Nordic blood. The world stands, as we want to see: beautiful, orderly, fair, socially, the world may be, still suffers some flaws, but overall happy, beautiful world filled with culture, which is precisely Germany. On the other side costs 180 million people, a mixture of races and peoples, whose names are unpronounceable, and whose physical nature is such that the only thing that they can do - is to shoot without pity or mercy. These animals are subjected to torture and ill-treatment of each prisoner on our side who do not have medical care they captured our wounded, as do the decent soldiers, you see them for yourself. These people have joined the Jews one religion, one ideology, called Bolshevism, the challenge: with Russia now, half [located] in Asia, parts of Europe, to crush Germany and the whole world.

When you, my friends, are fighting in the East, you keep the same struggle against the same nedochelovechestva against those same inferior races that were once under the name of the Huns, and later - 1,000 years ago during the time of King Henry and Otto I, - under the name of the Hungarians, and later under the name of Tatars, and then they came again under the name of Genghis Khan and the Mongols. Today they are called Russian under the political banner of Bolshevism .

— - Speech Reichsführer Heinrich Himmler in Stettin July 13, 1941

We need to ... behave in a comradely towards people of one blood with us, and more with anyone. Me in the least interested in the fate of the Russian or Czech. We take from other nations that our healthy blood type, they can give us. If this will be necessary, we will resort to taking away their children and educate them in our environment. Do other people live in prosperity or they faint from hunger interests me only in so far as they are needed as slaves for our culture, in another sense, it does not interest me. Die from exhaustion or not to create anti-tank ditch 10000 Russian women, I am interested only in the sense that there is ready for Germany antitank ditch ... If someone comes in and says to me: "I can not do with the anti-tank ditch using women and children, it is inhuman, it will ruin them "- I will answer him:" You are a killer of people your blood, as if the ditch is finished, the German soldiers will die, and they - the sons of German mothers. Knowing that such Slavs. Slav was never able to construct anything. Slavs - mixed people on the basis of an inferior race with drops of our blood is not able to maintain order and to govern themselves. This inferior human material today as not able to maintain order, he was not capable of 700 or 800 years ago, when these people called Vikings when they invited Rjurikov. We Germans are the only ones in the world who are good to animals. We will properly apply to these human animals. However, it would be a crime against their own blood to take care of them and inspire them with what whatever ideals and thus more difficult for our children and grandchildren their treatment.

— Heinrich Himmler

Himmler had extreme hatred of Slavs and considered them inferior and mixed race despite calling Russians Aryans in one of his publications, the hypocrisy...and yet this can also be found:

"He (Himmler) then singled out those nations which he regarded as belonging to the German family of nations and they were: the Germans, the Dutch, the Flemish, the Anglo-Saxons, the Scandinavians and the Baltic people. 'To combine all of these nations into one big family is the most important task at the present time' (Himmler said). 'This unification has to take place on the principle of equality and at that same time has to secure the identity of each nation and its economical independence, of course, adjusting the latter to the interests of the whole German living space. . . After the unification of all the German nations into one family, this family. . . has to take over the mission to include, in the family, all the Roman nations whose living space is favored by nature with a milder climate...I am convinced that after the unification, the Roman nations will be able to persevere as the Germans...This enlarged family of the White race will then have the mission to include the Slavic nations into the family also because they too are of the White race . . . it is only with such a unification of the White race that the Western culture could be saved from the Yellow race . . . At the present time, the Waffen-SS is leading in this respect because its organization is based on the principle of equality. The Waffen-SS comprises not only German, Roman and Slavic, but even Islamic units and at the same time has proven that every unit has maintained its national identity while fighting in close togetherness . . . I know quite well my Germans. The German always likes to think himself better but I would like to avert this. It is important that every Waffen-SS officer obeys the order of another officer of another nationality, as the officer of the other nationality obeys the order of the German officer.”

Anyhow, people of Germanic descent living in the east were attempted to be Germanized again and raised as Germans. But the view on Slavs depended on the ethnic group, for example the Czechs were often labeled as "Mongoloid" (an old Vienna cliche with no real meaning behind it) and good workers but they were still technically Aryan.

I also found this which I found interesting:

The vast majority of our contemporaries firmly convinced that the plans "inhumane fascism" was the elimination of millions of Slavs. This belief is so strong that actually turned into uninsurable doubt the truth. However, the full proof of the existence of these aspirations at the top of the National Socialist state does not exist.

The emergence of allegations of Nazi extermination plans of the majority of the population of the European part of the USSR refers to the time of the infamous Nuremberg Trials. Of course, before Nuremberg, that is still in the war, allied "aces information warfare" periodically recurring thoughts about wanting to "fascists" exterminate millions of people, but then it was just propaganda, often very clumsy.

As proof of the thesis on the Elimination of Slavs manipulators chosen few "documents". Chief among these is the so-called "General Plan East". It is significant that the text plan still has not been found. Nevertheless, during the Nuremberg judgment: the "document" appeared, however, in the form of some "comments and suggestions on the general plan of the East." The author notes, was the chief of a department of the Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories E. Wetzel. Fully Wetzel notes (they are pencil sketches in a notebook) and have not been published. In the most complete form they are presented in the "Journal of Military History» (№ 1, 1960, ss. 87-98) 1 .

Posted source consists of four sections: 1. General comments on the general plan "Ost" 2. General remarks on the issue of Germanization 3. On the solution of the Polish question 4. To a question on the future treatment of the Russian population.

The first section Wetzel Regarding the issue of resettlement of Germans on the eastern territories. Their number should reach 4550 thousand people for the first time. "Unwanted racially locals" to be resettled in Western Siberia. "6.5 million Jews to be eliminated even before the relocation." Wetzel further notes the need to integrate data on the racial composition of the East.

The second section examines the official event on so-called "Germanization" (included in the orbit of the Reich "locals of non-German origin, which have features of the Nordic race." By the way, the famous Soviet pseudo-historians "gitlerologi" D. Melnikov and L. Black in his "writings "offer meant by" Germanization "physical destruction 2 . That is, according to these talented Jewish writers, the Nazis planned to destroy the Nordic race ... interesting discovery!

The third section describes Wetzel Poles "the most dangerous people." However, he notes that "the Polish question can not be solved by eliminating the Poles", since "such a solution would be burdened forever the conscience of the German people and would deprive us of the sympathy of all."

In the fourth section, the author notes praises the Russian racial type and criticizes certain position of Abel, the proposed abolition of the Russian people.

Body of the document is replete with obvious factual errors. So, in the last section Wetzel writes about never existed in nature "Imperial Commissariat for Russia." It is difficult to assume that this official was not familiar with the structure of its own ministry. Here he mentions Gorky and General Commissariat of Tula, although Wetzel could not know that these territorial units were called in official papers districts (not even general district as Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Belarus).

Many in the "comments" and absolutely ridiculous proposals. Say Wetzel offers to resettle part Poles "in South America, especially in Brazil." This is very reminiscent of the famous "duck" plans to place Jews on about. Madagascar.

Therefore, the conclusion is that the pencil sketches Wetzel were either rigged from start to finish (which is quite common for the Allies) or subjected to "some revision" by the "experts." In any case, we are dealing with highly questionable document, which does not bear serious examination for authenticity and, on good, should be once and for all struck off the list of reliable historical sources. By the way, it has long made many Western scholars.

It is significant that even when working with such a controversial document some of the history of tightrope walkers manage to "reveal secrets monstrous fascism", showing the wonders of unprofessionalism. These Melnikov and black, for example, in the book "number one offender" writes: "In one place, the plan proposes, inter alia, to resettle Russian in South America and Africa" ​​3 . As we remember, Wetzel offered to South America to send some Poles, and not Russian. About Africa in the "comments" is not a word. In addition, the leading "gitlerologi" showed himself more and outstanding experts in the field of philology, saying that it is necessary to involve the physical destruction of not only the word "Germanized", but the words "deport" and "relocate".

In attempting to confirm the thesis of the plans for destruction Slavs Soviet propagandists did not disdain to seek the assistance and other equally dubious sources. For example, in the book "Criminal goal - criminal means" published "Political Testament" ordinary Gustav Hildebrandt 4 . It is clear that the value of such "important document" raises serious questions.

With a large hunting scientists antifascists quoted speeches by a number of heads of Germany. Especially popular Reichsführer SS Heinrich Himmler. So, Black in the book "Brown dictators" writes that "on the eve of the attack on the Soviet Union, Himmler said that one of the purposes of the campaign to the East yavalyaetsya destruction of 30 million Slavs" 5 . This statement is thoroughly false. It is borrowed from advocacy little articles Ehrenburg wartime. By inventing such posts Jewish writer performs a social order, fomenting bestial hatred of everything German, and encouraging physically destroy German women and children.

Now let's ask ourselves, how in fact the leaders of Germany belonged to the Slavs.

It's no secret that the ideology of National Socialism was based on racial theory. Many researchers are trying to deny the scientific value of the teachings of the races, that's their business. It is important that the leaders of the Third Reich questions blood was critical. Hitler wrote: "Sins against blood and race are the most terrible sins in this world. The nation which indulges in these sins, doomed " 6 .

In a series of monographs, sometimes very valuable to the actual point of view, the authors admit all the same mistake: the Nazis considered Slavs "subhuman" and wanted to destroy them. For example, a modern scholar Boris Kovalev in his book about the Nazi occupation regime said: "After the Nazis came to power in Germany began to use the official support of eugenics - the" science "of racial hygiene." The purpose of eugenics, the conviction of the author, was "determining the optimal number of" Untermensch. " The latter include Jews, Gypsies and Slavs " 7 .

In order to refute this statement amateurish, we turn to one of the leading theorists of racial Nazi Germany Hans Gunther. In his writings, he clearly separates the notion of nation and race. Race, according to Gunther, "it is a single group of people different from other special, inherent combination of physical symptoms and psychological characteristics, which always plays only their own kind" 8 .

Germans, like any European nation, consists of several races: "People of the same race or, more correctly, one racial mixtures may speak different languages, and people who speak the same language - differ racially. But most importantly, it is always peoples racial mixtures and never race " 9 . The most "valuable", according to Gunther, the Nordic race. It is present in varying proportions in all European nations. Percentage of Nordic blood in the Great is very significant and is generally higher than that of the Germans themselves. This view was shared by other German Racology. Fritz Lenz in 1915 noted: "Racially Muscovites closer to the Germans' 10 .

It is clear that Racology in Germany was not some abstract scientific discipline. Among its conclusions and recommendations sensitively listened leaders of the party and the state. Scientific calculations Racology actively used in the legislation. One of the most important laws of the Reich - "Law on Citizenship of the Empire and the protection of German blood and German honor" of 15 September 1935. Let me quote an excerpt from the document: "German blood does not form their race. The German people is composed of representatives of different races. But all these races tend to what their blood are mutually compatible and a mixture of these bloods unlike blood, which is unrelated to them, does not create obstacles and stresses. It can be of German blood, without a doubt, to equate the blood of those people, which is related to the racial composition of the German people. This applies to all the peoples inhabiting the space of Europe. Blood siblings German equally considered in all directions. Therefore, the citizens of the Empire can be representatives of minorities living in Germany, for example, the Poles, Danes, etc. " 11 .

Thus, the Slavic peoples, and, of course, the Russian people were officially recognized in the Reich racially related, fraternal ethnic groups. What is the meaning to destroy their brethren - here's a simple question that we address Kovalev, Black and other conscious and unconscious falsifiers of history.

Our findings confirm and historical facts. Slavic states - Bulgaria, Croatia, Slovakia - were true and steadfast allies of the New Europe, taking part in the crusade against Bolshevism. Croatia and Slovakia, by the way, were obliged to gaining its independence Hitler personally. In the ranks of the Wehrmacht and SS troops fought against communism Russian, Ukrainians, Belorussians, Bulgarians, Czechs, Poles.

Why Dr. Goebbels admired the bravery of soldiers Russian Liberation Army? Why Alfred Rosenberg wrote that "Russia - a country that has kept in his breast the true image of Christ" 12 ? Why Adolf Hitler donated hundreds of thousands of Reichsmarks to build the Berlin Orthodox Cathedral and repair dozens of Russian churches, and called Russian "great people" 13 ? Very simple. Because the Nazis never wanted to destroy the Slavs!

Officially there were no anti-Slavic laws like there was against Jews antisemitic legal laws but brutality did happen to Slavs by the Nazis but in terms of racial policy and the right to citizenship, Slavs were Aryan, even if some authors say they were not Aryan; the official documents from the Nazi leaders and the Reich refute this bogus claim/myth.--Windows66 (talk) 15:58, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

'Aryan' in practice meant 'not Jewish', so yes they were characterised as Aryan, legally. That does not mean they were not considered inferior types of Aryan, or indeed partly mixed with non-Aryans. I've no doubt that Soviet propaganda writings contained many exaggerations and downright lies, but there's plenty of evidence that the Nazi leadership were not exactly fans of Slavs. You can read the Zweites Buch online here [2]. Paul B (talk) 19:27, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Aryan in practice meant not of Jewish, Gypsy, Negro or any non-European descent. And "Aryans" were Europeans/white people. There was talk of eastern and southern Europeans to have mixed with non-Europeans/Aryans but none of this was more than hear say word no official policy of the Nazis were against eastern or southern Europeans. Many authors and historians have confused anti-Bolshevik or anti-Communist policies as anti-Slavic, for example in the book Hitler's Ethic by Richard Weikart shows the pamphlet book Der Untermensch (The Subhuman) which was published in 1942 and says "Slavs as subhumans (cover of Nazi pamphlet)" when this is completely false and clearly this professor historian has clearly not read the pamphlet because nowhere do Slavs appear to be mentioned and the cover is most certainly not a Slav but rather a Soviet of non-European descent such as a Tatar or Mongol.

And even look at Nazi propaganda, the The Zeitschriften-Dienst was a weekly newspaper for the Nazis and said "Do not say that the Slavic peoples are inferior."[3].

I'm actually going to buy Hitler's second book from Amazon shortly.

I'm not actually quite sure what the OP is suggesting to be changed, what do you want changing? I have you statements from people top of the Nazi ranks, i.e Himmler who called Russians both sub-humans (untermenschen) and Aryan.--Windows66 (talk) 15:38, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Windows66 wrote: "...Slavs could still be citizens of the Reich, still have sexual relations and marriages with Germans..."

In reality, Russian and Polish slave workers in Germany (see łapanka) were publicly executed for having sex with German women while the French and British workers or prisoners received a less severe punishment.[4] The Poles and Czechs had become second-class citizens of the Reich and treated accordingly.

Fellow Germans who engage in sexual relations with male or female civil workers of the Polish nationality, commit other immoral acts or engage in love affairs shall be arrested immediately.

— Heinrich Himmler, June 1940[5]

Ian Kershaw. Stalinism and Nazism: dictatorships in comparison, 1997 — "The Nazi revolution was broader than just the Holocaust. Its second goal was to eliminate Slavs from central and eastern Europe and to create a Lebensraum for Aryans. ... As Bartov (The Eastern Front; Hitler's Army) shows, it barbarised the German armies on the eastern front. Most of their three million men, from generals to ordinary soldiers, helped exterminate captured Slav soldiers and civilians. This was sometimes cold and deliberate murder of individuals (as with Jews), sometimes generalised brutality and neglect. ... German soldiers' letters and memoirs reveal their terrible reasoning: Slavs were 'the Asiatic-Bolshevik' horde, an inferior but threatening race."

It is a question of existence, thus it will be a racial struggle of pitiless severity, in the course of which 20 to 30 million Slavs and Jews will perish through military actions and crises of food supply.

— Heinrich Himmler, June 1941

Tobby72 (talk) 21:23, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Please do not confuse relations with Aryans and Germans as the same. Slavs were indeed 'Aryans' under the loose definition that all non-Jewish white Europeans were. Himmler issued after the beginning of the war that all sexual relations were forbidden with foreigners (non-Germans), Germans who ignored this could be charged for Rassenchande (race defilement).

The Polish decrees were aimed at Polish foreign workers to the Reich who's duty was to work and not engage with Germans at all.

In regards to your quote by Himmler "It is a question of existence, thus it will be a racial struggle of pitiless severity, in the course of which 20 to 30 million Slavs and Jews will perish through military actions and crises of food supply.", this is only according to Bach-Zelewski - which is rather ironic given he was of Polish-Slavic descent himself.

Poles were not given a second-class citizen status of the Reich but equally the same according to the Reich Citizenship Law, although harsh punishments and brutality was enforced onto Poles and other people in occupied Europe. You can read further the information about what policies were given to Poles on the 'Aryan side' of the ghettos.

Official definition of Aryan:

The Aryans (also Indo-Germans, Japhetiten) are one of the three branches of the Caucasian (white race);they are divided into the western (European), that is the German, Roman, Greek, Slav, Lett, Celt [and] Albanesen, and the eastern (Asiatic) Aryans, that is the Indian (Hindu) and Iranian (Persian, Afghan, Armenian, Georgian, Kurd). Non-Aryans are therefore: 1. the members of two other races, namely the Mongolian (yellow) and the Negroid (black) races; 2. the members of the two other branches of the Caucasian race, namely the Semites (Jews, Arabs) and Hamites (Berbers). The Finns and the Hungarians belong to the Mongoloid race; but it is hardly the intention of the law to treat them as non-Aryans. Thus . . . the non-Jewish members of the European Volk are Aryans. . . .

— The Nazi Ancestral Proof: Genealogy, Racial Science, and the Final Solution

I find Hitler's opinion of Poles very interesting:

Polacy są najbardziej inteligentnym narodem ze wszystkich, z którymi spotkali się Niemcy podczas tej wojny w Europie... Polacy według mojej opinii, oraz na podstawie obserwacji i meldunków z Generalnej Gubernii, są jedynym narodem w Europie, który łączy w sobie wysoką inteligencję z niesłychanym sprytem. Jest to najzdolniejszy naród w Europie, ponieważ żyjąc ciągle w niesłychanie trudnych warunkach politycznych, wyrobił w sobie wielki rozsądek życiowy, nigdzie niespotykany.

Na podstawie ostatnich badań, powadzonych przez Reichsrassenamt uczeni niemieccy doszli do przekonania, że Polacy powinni być asymilowani do społeczności niemieckiej jako element wartościowy rasowo. Uczeni nasi doszli do wniosku, że połączenie niemieckiej systematyczności z polotem Polaków dałoby doskonałe wyniki".

English:

The Poles are the most intelligent of all the people with whom they met the Germans during the war in Europe ... Poles in my opinion, and based on observations and reports from the General Government, are the only nation in Europe that combines high intelligence with cunning unheard. This is the most talented people in Europe as still living in extremely difficult political circumstances, made ​​a name for himself a great sense life, unparalleled anywhere.

Based on recent research, Reichsrassenamt powadzonych by German scholars came to believe that the Poles should be assimilated into German society as a racially valuable. Our scholars have come to the conclusion that the combination of German regularity with flair Poles would give excellent results.[6]

It is already mentioned on the article about Nazis policy regarding Slavs, why is there a need to add anymore to it?

I've reverted your edits about Nazis ideology on the Nazism article of Poles because this does not belong in the "racial theories", Poles were equally racially the same which has been proven time and time again by the Reich Citizenship Law and the Ahnenpass (ancestors passport) irrespective of anti-Polish statements by people such as Himmler or Bormann.

In regards to your edit about German women being punished for having sexual relations with foreign workers, it also applied to German males too.--Windows66 (talk) 17:01, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Change the title Policies regarding Poles and Russians

What about changing it from this to Policy towards Slavs or Policy towards Eastern Europeans, other Slavs than just Poles and Russians suffered according to Nazi ideology and their views, many other Slavs including for example Ukrainians and Czechs suffered because of the Nazis and Nazism, what do people think?

The Russian page Untermensch has a whole section regarding Slavs under the title "The ratio of Nazi Germany to the Slavs" which is something we could use as a guide as this is fully cited and is quite a lot of text about them and the views from Nazis.

"For centuries, Russia was living through it the German core in its higher strata of the population. Now it's completely destroyed the core to the end. Germans, Jews took place. But as the Russian can not by their own efforts to throw off the yoke of Jews and only Jews can not keep for a long time in the submission is a huge state. The Jews themselves are not part of the organization, but rather an enzyme disruption. This giant eastern state inevitably doomed to failure. By this all the prerequisites already matured. The end of the Jewish domination in Russia will also be the end of Russia as a state. Destined us to be witness to such a disaster, which is better than anything else, certainly confirms the correctness of our race theory. "

Adolf Hitler's "Mein Kampf"

It is worth noting that in 1930 the Nazis still rarely used the term "subhuman" and did not associate it with the above-mentioned categories of "racially inferior", continuing to adhere to the entered Stoddard identification of the "sub-human" with "Russian Bolsheviks." One of the most striking examples of the use of that term in years - was released in 1936 booklet Reichsführer SS Himmler "Security teams as a fighting anti-Bolshevik organization» (Die Schutzstaffel als antibolschewistische Kampforganisation), which said: "We'll make sure that never again in Germany, the heart Europe could not be rekindled within or through emissaries from outside the Jewish-Bolshevik revolution of subhumans Jewish-Bolshevik revolution of subhumans.

The widespread use of the term began after the attack of Nazi Germany on the Soviet Union on June 22, 1941. So, in a propaganda bulletin number 112, issued by the Propaganda Department of the Wehrmacht in June 1941, immediately after the attack on the USSR (such papers read to the personnel of all parts of the Wehrmacht), the goals of the war were listed as follows:

Necessary to eliminate red subhumans, along with their Kremlin dictators. German people will have a great task to perform the most in its history, and the world will hear more about that this task will be completed before the end.

- Newsletter for the troops (Information for the band), № 112, June 1941

By "red subhuman", which "should be eliminated," mainly meant political workers, the Communists and the commissioners, which the Germans were shot first. July 17, 1941 in Illustrierter Beobachter («thick» illustrated appendix to the official body of the NSDAP Volkischer Beobachter) published a photograph of captured Soviet officers with the caption: "Caught officers of the Soviet Army - hastily assembled bunch of subhuman and immature fanatics» (Gefangene Offiziere der Sowiet-Armee - zusammengewürfelte eine Gesellschaft und aus Untermenschen unreifen Fanatikern).

In those days the Reichsführer Himmler spoke to the SS sends out to the Eastern Front Battle Group "Nord" with a speech in which admonished them to war with the "red sub-human" and it is abundantly clear who is meant by those:

It is a war of ideologies and struggle races. On one side stands National Socialism: ideology, founded on the values ​​of our Germanic, Nordic blood. It is worth the world as we want to see: beautiful, orderly, fair, socially, a world that may be, still suffers some flaws, but overall a happy, beautiful world filled with culture, which is precisely Germany. On the other side stands the 180 millionth people, a mixture of races and peoples, whose names are unpronounceable, and whose physical nature is such that the only thing that they can do - is to shoot without pity or mercy. These animals, which are subjected to torture and ill-treatment of each prisoner from our side, which do not have medical care they captured our wounded, as do the decent men, you will see them for yourself. These people have joined a Jewish religion, one ideology, called Bolshevism, with the task of: having now Russian, half [located] in Asia, parts of Europe, crush Germany and the world.

When you, my friends, are fighting in the East, you keep the same struggle against the same nedochelovechestva, against the same inferior races that once appeared under the name of Huns, and later - 1,000 years ago during the time of King Henry and Otto I, - under the name of the Hungarians, and later under the name of Tatars, and then they came again under the name of Genghis Khan and the Mongols. Today they are called Russian under the political banner of Bolshevism.

- Speech of Reichsführer Heinrich Himmler in Szczecin, 13 July 1941

Most of the fallen in 1941 captured Soviet soldiers died by the end of that year of starvation in prison camps in what some researchers see a deliberate policy aimed against the Soviet citizens.

German historian Christian Streit points to "the destruction of Einsatzgruppen in the RCC and the frontal area of approximately 600,000 prisoners of war, most of which were eliminated until the spring of 1942". In general, the number of deaths is known from official sources Nazi - report from the head of the working group on the use of labor-ministerial director of Mansfeld in the Imperial Economic Chamber Feb. 19, 1942:

We have 3.9 million was Russian, of which there are only 1.1 million alone from November 1941 to January 1942 500,000 dead Russian.

- Statement by the Director-ministerial Mansfeld in the Imperial Economic Chamber of 19 February 1942 [24]

In 1946, the Nuremberg trials Goering said he believed the theory of a "superior race" improper, in the meantime, in 1935, he said in the Reichstag speech in defense of the Nuremberg Laws. Then he openly declared: "God made ​​the race, he did not want equality, and therefore we strongly reject any attempt to pervert the concept of racial purity ...".

Mulattos and Finno-Asian barbarians, gypsy scum and African savages - the foundation of all the inhabitants of the modern podmira subhumans, the head of which stands the eternal unchanging image of the Jew.

- Brochure The sub-human (1942)

Officially, the law of the III Reich term "subhuman" was not used. To the German blood, according to the Nuremberg laws, all people were equal, "inhabiting enclosed spaces in Europe" (European countries).

German blood does not form their own race. The German people is composed of representatives of different races. But all of these races is peculiar that their blood are mutually compatible and blend these strains as opposed to blood, which is unrelated to them, does not create obstacles and stresses. It can be of German blood, without a doubt, then let the blood of the nations, which are related to the racial composition of the German people. This applies to all the peoples inhabiting the space of Europe. Blood related German, equally considered in all directions. Therefore, the citizens of the Empire may be representatives of minorities living in Germany, for example, the Poles, Danes, etc.

- Reich Citizenship Law and the Law on the Protection of German Blood and German Honor of September 15, 1935

However, the Slavs in the private utterances of some prominent National Socialists often called denordizirovannoy, mixed group, which significantly reduces their status. Reichskommissar Ukraine Erich Koch spoke of the Slavs and the Balts as a "lower peoples." March 5, 1943, he stated the following:

We the people ... lords and must be firmly and fairly to govern. I squeeze out of this country to the last. We must realize that the smallest German worker racially and biologically a thousand times greater than the local population.

-Hans-Erich Volkmann (Hrsg.), Das Russlandbild im Dritten Reich (The image of Russia in the Third Reich), Köln, 1994, page 43.

The deadline Slavophobe was also Martin Bormann:

The Slavs have to work for us. To the extent that we do not need, they can die. Therefore, a requirement for vaccinations and medical care on the part of the Germans is unnecessary. Reproduction of the Slavs is undesirable. [28] . They may use contraceptives and abortion, and the more the better. Education dangerous. Enough for them to be able to count to a hundred. At best, acceptable education that prepares us for the useful puppets.

There should be no Polish hosts, where they shall be as though it may sound cruel, they should be destroyed ... must be destroyed all the representatives of the Polish intelligentsia - it sounds cruel, but this is the law of life ... Priests will be paid by us and for that will preach what we want. If there is a priest who will act differently, talk with them will be short. The priest is to keep the Poles quiet, stupid and stupid. This is - completely in our interests ... The last German worker and the last German peasant must always stand economically superior to any Pole.

The presence of Slavs and Jews in the pedigree was compromising material. All these facts are included in the files of Himmler.

Due to the greater fertility of other nations, between nations and us there is tough competition. If we do not take care of the appropriate numerical growth of our people and the strengthening of its Nordic inheritance, then, in that case, Nordic blood will be replaced by the blood of all the hard-bitten East.

Only German peasants there forms a natural protective barrier to the penetration of the eastern nations. Large-scale colonization efforts to move our eastern lands Nordic peasants will allow us to create a barrier to the invasion of the eastern people.

- Heinrich Himmler

From the very beginning of the war the Nazi government actively supported on the eastern front almost all the national groups, which were ready to resist the common enemy - the Soviet Union and the communist ideology (so-called. "Red Scare"), yet the attitude of the local population in the occupied territories is best evident from the speech of Himmler and Posen 4 October 1943:

We need ... to behave in a comradely way to the people of one blood with us, and more with anyone. I am not in the least interested in the fate of the Russian or Czech. We will take from other nations that healthy blood of our type, they will be able to give us. If this will be a must, we will resort to taking away their children and educate them in our midst. Do other people live in prosperity or they faint from hunger interests me only in so far as they are needed as slaves for our culture, in another sense, it does not interest me. Die from exhaustion or not to create anti-tank ditch 10,000 Russian women, I am interested only in the respect ready to anti-tank ditch for Germany ... If anyone comes to me and says, 'I can not do with the anti-tank ditch by women and children, it is inhuman, it will destroy them, "- I will answer him:" You are a murderer of your people's blood, as if the pit is finished, the German soldiers will die, and they - the sons of German mothers [29] . It is known that such Slavs. Slav has never been able to construct anything. The Slavs - mixed people on the basis of an inferior race with drops of our blood is not able to maintain order and to self-government. This low-quality human material today just is not able to maintain order, he was not capable of 700 or 800 years ago, when these people called Vikings when they invited Rurik . We Germans are the only ones in the world who relates well to animals. We will properly apply to these human animals. But it would be a crime against their own blood to take care of them and inspire them what else ideals, and thus further complicate our children and grandchildren, their treatment.

- Heinrich Himmler

While towards the Jews was carried out genocide policy , especially among the Slavs suffered Poles. From 1939 to 1945, at least 1.5 million Polish citizens were deported to Germany for forced labor. Hundreds of thousands more were imprisoned in Nazi concentration camps. By some estimates, during World War II, the Nazis killed at least 1.9 million non-Jewish Poles, [5] . It should be noted that in 1943, after heavy losses on the Eastern Front, the Nazis were officially permitted to representatives of all Slavic peoples, except the Poles , to serve in the Waffen-SS (by then part, staffed by ethnic Ukrainians, were already in the Wehrmacht - for example, the battalions " Nachtigall "and" Roland ").

In autumn 1944 Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler met with General A. A. Vlasov , where it was decided to establish a Committee for the Liberation of Peoples Russia as a "national Russian government," alternative Bolshevik Moscow. About the attitude of the Germans to the Slavic collaborators wrote Otto Skorzeny

"Baranov gave me the impression of a man who wants to Russia ceased to be a Asian country, and has participated in the construction of a stronger and more prosperous Europe. At one time he was in Siberia, then he realized the threat to his country and all Europeans, China is still asleep. Such a theory does not match the definition of racist concepts that defended the Reichsführer SS, and they always seemed to me dangerous and utopian. Vlasov drew my attention to the fact that the officers and soldiers of the Imperial Russian Guard has traditionally had a height 180 cm, blue eyes and a turned-up nose. But they were not of Prussia...

Vlasov said only the Russian Bolsheviks could win...

When I talked to Felkersam Vlasov, he was no longer the Great mentality, and although with difficulty, but he realized that a country such as Ukraine, have their own, very ancient culture, have the right to self-determination. He also became clear that the Baltic countries are not owned by Russia. Cossacks understood "socialism" in a different way than the other peoples inhabiting Russia, and the new division of the land was intractable problem.

... We fought. In the Wehrmacht employed more than 500,000 so-called "Jivi" (Hilfswillige) - Russian prisoners of war, is a great help in the rear ... ".

(Skorzeny O. The Unknown War. Memories. Minsk, 2003).

Is there any objections to the change as its best discussed through the talk page to avoid an edit conflict or anything of the kind.--Sphere1994 (talk) 19:05, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

While towards the Jews was carried out genocide policy , especially among the Slavs suffered Poles. -

That is correct. Poles and Serbs were the most persecuted nations except for Jews, Gypsies and people "of color". Slavs were called "untermensch" meaning "sub-human". Yatzhek (talk) 19:47, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

ranked Poles, Serbs, Russians,[2][3] Romani, persons of color and Jews at the bottom - what does it mean?

racial hierarchy

• Germans - the masters
• Czechs, Croats - accepted Slavs
• Poles, Serbs, Belarusian, Ukrainians, Russians - slave work, partial extermination
• Romani, Jews - total extermination.Xx236 (talk) 08:29, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Are you asking a question or answering one? RashersTierney (talk) 09:47, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Both. The quoted phrase is either totally wrong, if it says that all victims were equal, or is uncomplete, because the Ukrainians and Belarusians aren't listed. Many English languge texts call all Soviet citizens "Russians", which is unprecize.Xx236 (talk) 10:38, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

The sources look dubious and I've tagged them accordingly. Will allow a day or two for 'corrections' before removal. Shouldn't really be in lead unless clearly covered in article. RashersTierney (talk) 11:18, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

The Ukrainians were also the accepted Slavs, at least some part of them, those who were tall, blonde, with sky-blue eyes and light skin. The most unaccepted and persecuted Slavs were Poles, and Serbs on the second place. Russians for instance would be accepted mostly because of their close-to-Aryan features, BUT there were two things about them that made them "politically" subhuman - most of their country is in Asia (non-European), and the next thing, they were Communists who Hitler was afraid of. Yatzhek (talk) 19:43, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Stop making up lies. Ukrainians were always recognized as Slavs - what else are/were they? Poles and Serbs were also accepted as Slavs and thus Aryans. Russians were also accepted as Slavs but there was talk of "Asiatic" and other sluts against them but they were still officially Aryans too. The location of Russia had nothing to do with the status of being subhumans according to Nazi ideology and not all Russians were Communists since many Russians fought alongside Hitler against Slavs and such Russian-Slavic divisions of the SS were created such as the 29th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS RONA (1st Russian).--Windows66 (talk) 18:46, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

The "Pyramid of Races" according to the Nazis during the World War II

The "racial ladder" or the "pyramid of races" according the Nazi Germany looked like this - from the bottom, to the top:

Bottom (untermensch) :

• Jews - total extermination (result: 6 million deaths in the Holocaust)
• Gypsies - partial extermination (result: 500,000 deaths in the Holocaust)
• Poles - slave work, expulsion and partial extermination (result: 2 million deaths in the Holocaust)
• Serbs - partial extermination (result: 300,000 deaths in the Holocaust)
• Rusyns, Russians and other Slavic peoples (excluding some Croats, partially Ukrainians, and some Czechoslovaks) - slave work, repressions
• Blacks - discrimination, repressions
• Mulattos and all other persons of color (excluding some of the Arabs and Indians) - discrimination, repressions

Middle:

• Asians and Asiatic peoples (excluding the Japanese)
• Indians
• Armenians and people of the Caucasus
• Czechs, Slovaks (they were Slavic peoples, but were considered somewhat better than other Western-Slavs and South-Slavs)
• Ukrainians (despite being a Slavic "inferior race" and Eastern-Slavs, some of their forces collaborated with the Nazis)
• Southern-Europeans (including eg. Spanish, Portuguese, Greeks, but excluding Italians)

Upper-middle:

• Arabs (the Free Arabian Legion) - there were some exceptions for the Arabs (Semitic), just like for the Slavic Croats or Southern-European Italians
• The French
• Croats (despite being Slavic from the Southern Europe, they collaborated with the occupants)
• Italians (facism, Mussolini, allies of the Reich)
• The Japanese (the "honorary Aryans")

Top (ubermensch):

• The British (especially the English - for their Germanic heritage)
• Other Germanic peoples (i.e. Scandinavians, Flemings, the Dutch, etc.)
• Austrians (and other German-speaking European inhabitants of ethnic-German origin)
• Germans (the master "race").

This "ladder of races according to the Nazis" is supported by numerous sources. Nevertheless, I gathered the data in one straightforward piece of information.

Yatzhek (talk) 21:25, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but this is utter nonsense. Firstly Jews were not at the "bottom" of racial ladder. You can find numerous examples in Nazi literature of how clever the Jews are. They are, in Nazi ideology, evil, of course, but that does not mean that they are at the bottom of a racial hierarchy. If they were they would not have been perceived as a threat. Secondly, "Germans" are not a race, at least not in the typological models that racial theorists used at the time, including those most favoured by the Nazis. The fact is that there is no single hierarchy, and it's pretty fruitless to construct and artificial list like this. Nazi policy was informed by racial ideology, mixed with Germanist nationalism and exigencies of practical policy, constantly shifting according to political goals and needs. That's not to say we can't make reasonable statements about how beliefs, policies, laws etc functioned, but it;'s not helpful to pretend that everything was so neat as this. Paul B (talk) 22:12, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

It's not nonsense. Jews were at the very bottom of the racial hierarchy according to the Nazi German law (see: Nuremberg Laws). Marriages between Germans and such nations as: Jews, Gypsies, Poles (or other Slavs) were punished by death and were inconsistent with the Nazi Racial hygiene. I know Germans are not a race according to the genetic science, but they surely were a race (a superior race) according to the Nazi ideology. I know that this "racial list" was changing during the time, while Nazis did not only establish it on the basis of a true "racial" category, but also on the basis of the political needs and strategies, like placing some chosed Arab soldiers and leaders (the Free Arabian Legion), some Jewish individuals (Jewish Ghetto Police) or the whole Japanese nation as the "honorary Aryans" which was nonsense when you think of the racial policy of the Nazi regime, but it was based on some war strategy, the needs of the German military and Hitler's plans. I think this "racial ladder" illustrates the Nazi views on race in a quite clear manner. Yatzhek (talk) 13:39, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

You seem to think that because the Jews were most heavily targeted that means they were at the bottom of a hierarchy. That's both factually untrue and a non-sequitur. It would be fair to say there was a hierarchy of victimisation (Jews were at the bottom in Auschwitz), but that's quite different from what is normally meant by "racial hierarchy", which refers to a model of differential abilities supposed to be linked to "degrees" of evolutionary development. We shouldn't mix these quite separate concepts up. Paul B (talk) 17:03, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Yatzhek please provide sources for your claims.

You are wrong. According to the Nazi ideology all the Europeans were racially the same, this included Germanic peoples, Slavic peoples, Celtic peoples, etc. Japanese were considered the "honorary Aryans" but not racially Aryan. All non-Europeans were non-Aryan.

Subhuman was not always used in a racial sense, communists and Bolsheviks were also "subhumans" but even German Aryans could be these.--Windows66 (talk) 16:55, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

@ Paul Barlow, in the case of Jews they were considered a "threat" and a racial one too to the Aryan race and were viewed as mixed-race peoples who had endangered the Aryan nations (Europe). On the Nazi racial scale the Jews and the Gypsies were considered at the very bottom, they were deemed Life unworthy of life. Jews, Gypsies, blacks and all non-Europeans were "non-Aryan", this was not the case as we both know with the Slavs. Slavs were Aryan but the user Yatzhek is making tedious little edits on Nazi-race related articles and adding "Poles" into a section.

The user Yatzhek said yesterday that he/she would not make anymore edits on the Black people in Nazi Germany article yet has continued to do so, see here. There is no cooperation with the user, when evidence refutes his claims he then accused me of being racist, anti-Polish, white supremacist and many other absurd things - this all got reported.

For more info on this debate, see [7] [8] and [9] and the report [10] and Yatzhek was issued a warning [11].--Windows66 (talk) 18:39, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Jews were not at the bottom of a scale, though in general they were considered to be racially mixed, yes. The fact that Nazis wanted to remove and/or destroy Jews from Germany, and later Europe does not mean that they were at the "bottom" of some made-up hierarchy of races. In general Nazi racial scientists followed the standard hierarchical model of the time - with Tasmanians, Andamans etc at the bottom. Paul B (talk) 16:48, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Well the fact that the Jews were persecuted the most should really speak volumes, should it not? The master race article in the theory of a "Aryan master race" according to Joseph Arthur De Gobineau defined by skin colour will obviously place blacks lower than the Jews. But under Nazi racial hierarchy the Jews, Gypsies and blacks and all other non-Europeans were all at the bottom of the racial hierarchy. Don't the Nuremberg racial laws of 1935 not prove this?

Do you have any sources to back up the claim Jews were not at the bottom of the racial scale?--Windows66 (talk) 17:49, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Jews were at the very bottom, as Hitler's plan was to annihilate the Jewish nation completely. Some say "Jewish is just a religion", but the truth is that not only, it's also not a race as some call them. They are an ethnic group. During the WWII no other ethnicity beside Jews was planned to be totally exterminated, even the Gypsies were not. This is why they were at the bottom of the "Nazi scale". Poles for instance were planned to be partially exterminated, and other were destined to do slave-work at the labor camps across the occupied Poland and Germany (mostly because Slavs were of strong stature and were known for their hard work before the War). However, Windows66, I don't want to argue with you no more. Everyone has the right to his/her own opinion here, because it's only a "Talk-board", not the article. Therefore, despite I disagree with you at some points, I respect your opinions. Yatzhek (talk) 21:20, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

The Nuremberg laws prove nothing about a "hierarchy", and they say nothing about a hierarchy. The laws served political and ideological purposes. You both seem to believe that the Holocaust demonstrates that Jews were were to be eliminated because they were at the "bottom" of some ladder of races. I know of no evidence of this whatever. History is full of examples of one group trying - and sometimes succeeding - in eliminating rivals and enemies. The Nazis perceived Jews as their principal enemies, for various reasons, but that's quite different from a model of racial hierarchy. This is not difficult to understand. The metaphor used was generally one of infection - with Jews as a bacillus, creating chaos and illness etc etc. Paul B (talk) 16:19, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Yatzhek, talk pages are used to try and improve and article not have a discussion with each other on one's opinion, nor is it a means of personally attacking people which you have done to me on several occasions, including accusing me of Holocaust denial, now you are acting all the "I'm a polite man and sorry" attitude to get out of the warning you received. It's not really relevant as to whether Jews are a race or not. Gypsies were also going to be exterminated, see the Porajmos article.--Windows66 (talk) 16:06, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Just stop. I admitted that your stalking and reverting my several edits made me mad and out of my mind. I had the balls to admit it, and privately, yes, I am a polite grown-up man. But as far as I see, you remain in your constant attacks, accusing me for some hidden IP action and being some other user (User:Tobby72). I guess a further conversation is sensless, while you are talking more about myself, than about the main topic of this section. Yatzhek (talk) 17:54, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

@ Paul Barlow, while the Nuremberg Laws do not mention anything about a hierarchy, there did exist such things like the Mischlinge Test which clearly shows the Nazis thought of a racial hierarchy with Aryans at the top and Jews (and people of part Jewish descent) and other non-Aryans as in a lower racial hierarchy.

"Lowest of all in the Nazi racial policy were Gypsies and Jews, who were both eventually deemed to be "Lebensunwertes Leben" ("Life unworthy of life")." The Nazism and race article discusses into further detail the racial hierarchy of the Nazis. What are you suggesting - Jews were the same in the racial hierarchy of Nazi Germany as the Aryans? Race was essential of Nazi Germany and for example in regards to Jews, party members could not be related for several generations to any non-Aryan, particularly Jews. Jews could not be citizens of the Third Reich.

Are you suggesting no such racial hierarchy existed? I mean this article itself states "in a racial hierarchy that placed the Herrenvolk (or "master race") of the Volksgemeinschaft (or "national community") at the top, and ranked Russians, Romani, Serbs, Poles, persons of color and Jews at the bottom." What 'evidence' is needed to show that Jews were placed at the bottom of the racial hierarchy; the fact they were forbidden from having sexual relations and marriages with Aryans, the fact they were denied German citizenship, the fact they were "subhumans", the fact they were seen as people of "alien blood", the fact Nazi party members could not be related to any Jews, the fact they were seen as a racially-mixed group out to destroy the Aryan race... what more evidence is required?

@ Yatzhek, I have already told you that talk pages are not here to discuss problems users have with each other. The admins will deal with you if necessary, if not then you are all good...

So back to the view you are holding in the terms of race to the Nazis, do you have any sources to provide proof of your claims?--Windows66 (talk) 18:43, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Nazis racial thinking and views on race

It's important to cite what the Nazis thoughts on race regarding superiority and inferiority of races and Nazis actual thinking on the different races.

Here is some excerpts:

The fundamental reason for excluding foreign-raced groups from a people’s body is not discrimination or contempt, but rather the realization of otherness. Only through such thinking will the peoples again become healthy, and able to respect each other.[12]

In our Reich, we are separating that which belongs to us, because it is blood of our blood, from that which does not belong to us, because it is foreign. We are doing that which is right not only for the moment, but for eternity.

Believe me, my dear German fellow citizens, it is not true, as some say, that this doctrine is a sign of arrogance or superiority or boasting. We do not think ourselves better than the other races on the earth. No, we do not think ourselves better, nor do we believe that others are worse than we are. We insist only on one thing — a law established by the Creator himself:

Man differs from man and race from race in this world.

The others may not be better or worse, but they are different than we are, and because they are different than we are, there is a kind of wall between us that is part of the laws of life. That is the core of National Socialism’s racial thinking. Our goal is not to insult others, to say: “What a great guy I am!” Rather, we hold to the humble recognition that each healthy piece of life has its corner of the world, and its special tasks. This is just as true of humans as it is of plants and animals in all their multiplicity. We know that one type is no more valuable than another. But we also know that each variety of life has a right to existence only as long as it keeps itself pure and strong. Only when a tree bears the proper fruit does it have a right to live. Otherwise it will be cut down and destroyed. We do not know why things are the way they are, and it would be foolish to ask the reason. That is how things are. Our task is to humbly accept the laws that govern our human existence, and to accept the fact that we are born Germans in Germany, not as Chinese or Eskimos. That is not because of our virtues, nor it is our fault, nor was it our will. It was fate that came from above. We have no choice but to accept this fate and to develop the abilities that fate has given us according to necessity and law.[13]

We do not conclude from a man's physical type his ability, but rather from his achievements his race.[14]

Dem Denken des Nationalsozialismus entsprechend, jedem anderen Volke volle Gerechtigkeit widerfahren zu lassen, ist dabei niemals von höher- oder minderwertigen, sondern stets nur von fremden Rasseneinschlägen die Rede. In line with national socialist thinking which does full justice to all other peoples, there is never the expression of superior or inferior, but alien racial admixtures.

--Hashi0707 (talk) 21:21, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Edit to the overall article

My recent edit was reverted for no other reason than being accused of a sock puppet (which is quite plainly false.)

Here are the edits I've made and why:

• The Aryan Master Race conceived by the Nazis graded humans on a scale of pure Aryan to non-Aryan (who were viewed as subhumans). At the top of the scale of pure Aryans included Germans and other Germanic peoples including the Dutch, Scandinavians, and the English, because they carried a suitable composition of Germanic blood.

This is not what the source says, the source says all these were considered Germanic people and were said to be higher up in the racial hierarchy whilst Latins such as the French and Italians were were also high up due to a certain admixture of Germanic blood.

I've changed it to:

• The Aryan Master Race conceived by the Nazis graded humans on a scale of pure Aryan to non-Aryan (who were viewed as subhumans). At the top of the scale of pure Aryans included Germans and other Germanic peoples including the Dutch, Scandinavians, and the English, as well as Latins such as the Italians and the French because they carried a suitable composition of Germanic blood. Y

I've then further added this text within the same section:

• Nazi racial beliefs of the superiority of an Aryan master race arose from earlier proponents of a supremacist conception of race such as Arthur de Gobineau, who published a four-volume work titled An Essay on the Inequality of the Human Races (translated into German in 1897). Gobineau proposed that the Aryan race was superior, and urged the preservation of its cultural and racial purity. Houston Stewart Chamberlain's work The Foundations of the Nineteenth Century (1900), one of the first to combine Social Darwinism with antisemitism, describes history as a struggle for survival between the Germanic peoples and the Jews, whom he characterized as an inferior and dangerous group. The two-volume book Foundations of Human Hereditary Teaching and Racial Hygiene (1920–21) by Eugen Fischer, Erwin Baur, and Fritz Lenz, used pseudoscientific studies to conclude that the Germans were superior to the Jews intellectually and physically, and recommended eugenics as a solution. Madison Grant's work The Passing of the Great Race (1916) advocated Nordicism and proposed using a eugenic program to preserve the Nordic race. After reading the book, Hitler called it "my Bible".

This gives readers an insight into where the Nazi racial theories arose from. Y

I've then further added:

• Nazi racial theorist Hans F. K. Günther identified the Aryan race in Europe as having five subtype races: Nordic, Mediterranean, Dinaric, Alpine, and East Baltic. Günther applied a Nordicist conception that Nordics were the highest in the racial hierarchy amongst these five Aryan subtype races. In his book Rassenkunde des deutschen Volkes (1922) ("Racial Science of the German People"), Günther recognised Germans as being composed of all five Aryan subtypes, but emphasised the strong Nordic heritage amongst Germans. Hitler read Rassenkunde des deutschen Volkes that influenced his racial policy.

Again, physical anthropology played a great part in Nazi racial thinking and Günther (who later joined the Nazi party) was the most prominent German race researcher and who influenced Hitler and Nazism greatly. Y

I've removed some text that is not relevant to the article or is repeated more than once in the article:

In the section "Other non-Aryans":

• "The Nazis considered a small percentage of people who the Nazis deemed in Eastern Europe to be descendants of ethnic German settlers and who underwent Germanised to be accepted as part of the Aryan Herrenvolk (Aryan master race)."

This has nothing to do with it so I've removed it. Y

• Prior to Hitler coming to power, black entertainers were popular in Germany, but the Nazis banned Jazz as ‘corrupt negro music’. However, contrary to popular myth, black American sprinter Jesse Owens', who won four gold medals beating German athletes at the 1936 Berlin Olympic games, faced less segregation there than in the USA, and felt snubbed by Roosevelt rather than by Hitler.

In the section "German Mulattoes":

• Mixed marriage and interracial sex became illegal. Some blacks were used in medical experiments, and others mysteriously disappeared.

The mentioning of Aryans being forbid from having sexual relations or marriage with blacks is mentioned twice in the article so I removed the former and kept the latter since that is specifically talking about blacks. Y

I then further added:

• The Nazis originally sought to rid the German state of Jews and Romani (Gypsies) by means of emigration, while blacks were to be segregated and eventually eliminated through compulsory sterilization.

This is exactly what the Nazis planned for the blacks in Germany. Y

In the section "Policies regarding Poles, Russians and other Slavs":

• Nazi ideology viewed the Slavic peoples as Untermenschen ("sub-humans"), suitable for enslavement, expulsion and extermination. The Generalplan Ost (GPO) was a secret Nazi plan to realize Hitler's "new order of ethnographical relations" in the territories occupied by Nazi Germany in Eastern Europe during World War II. It was prepared in 1941 and confirmed in 1942.

The final version of Generalplan Ost, essentially a grand plan for ethnic cleansing, was divided into two parts; the Kleine Planung ("Small Plan"), which covered actions which were to be taken during the war, and the Grosse Planung ("Big Plan"), which covered actions to be undertaken after the war was won (to be carried into effect gradually over a period of 25–30 years). The Small Plan was to be put into practice as the Germans conquered the areas to the east of their pre-war borders. The individual stages of this plan would then be worked out in greater detail. In this way, the plan for Poland was drawn up at the end of November 1939. The plan envisaged removal of majority of the population of conquered counties with very small differing percentages of the various conquered nations undergoing Germanisation, expulsion into the depths of Russia, and other fates, the net effect of which would be to ensure that the conquered territories would be Germanized. Himmler declared during the Germanization process that no drop of German blood would be lost or left behind to mingle with any "alien races". The Wehrbauer ("soldier-peasants") would settle in a fortified line to prevent civilization arising beyond and threatening Germany.

I removed a large amount of text from the section "Basis of Nazi policies and constitution of the Aryan Master Race" which mentioned Slavs and shortened it to fit into this actual section which is speaking about the Nazis policies on Slavs.

Nazi ideology viewed the Slavic peoples as Untermenschen ("sub-humans"), suitable for enslavement, expulsion and extermination. The Nazis considered some people in Eastern Europe to be of German descent, if they were considered racially valuable they were to be re-Germanised and forcefully taken from their families to Germany and raised as Germans. Due to shortage of manpower, an order of February 1943 forbid anyone to characterize the peoples of Eastern Europe as "beasts," "subhumans" or other derogatory descriptions in order to gain their support in "the struggle against Bolshevism."

The Nazis viewed the Slavs as sub-humans but during the middle of the war (1943) realized that some Slavs could be "useful" to the Reich as cannon fodders and an official order was issued to forbid people discriminating against them and instead try to use anti-Bolshevik propaganda to persuade them to fight on the German side of the war. Y

Nazi racial ideology caused problems with the Slavs when it came to ideology and practice. The Nazis could not define "Slavs" as a race and made distinctions both between and within the different Slavic ethnic groups. The Nazis policies against the Slavs cannot be entirely explained by racism alone. The Nazis viewed some Slavic ethnic groups as more Germanic than Slavic, such as the Croats who were viewed as being primarily the descendants of the Germanic Goths.

Nazi racism caused a huge amount of problems when it came to the Slavs. Official policy did consider them "Aryan" and they also made distinctions between the different Slavs, viewing some as more racially valuable than others. The Nazis could never use the word "Slavs" as a race or any Slavic ethnic group in a racial sense and Nazi physical anthropology viewed them as being originally Nordic but having lost this by mixing with non-Nordic peoples, the Slavs who were Nordic underwent racial screening and if accepted were Germanized. The policies against the Slavs cannot be explained entirely by racism alone but also political factors.

The essay Nazis and Slavs: From Racial Theory to Racist Practice by John Connelly explains this in great detail and is the source I've used for this paragraph. Y

The Generalplan Ost (Master Plan East) was a secret Nazi plan to realize Hitler's "new order of ethnographical relations" in the territories occupied by Nazi Germany in Eastern Europe during World War II. It was prepared in 1941 and confirmed in 1942. The final version of Generalplan Ost, essentially a grand plan for ethnic cleansing, was divided into two parts; the Kleine Planung ("Small Plan"), which covered actions which were to be taken during the war, and the Grosse Planung ("Big Plan"), which covered actions to be undertaken after the war was won (to be carried into effect gradually over a period of 25–30 years).

I've simply shortened what was already in the article about the future Nazi plans for Eastern Europe. Y--Hashi0707 (talk) 20:27, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

I disagree with the removal of solid content sourced to Longerich and Davies, considered experts on this topic, and have reverted your edit. Then I re-added the two new paragraphs. I noticed that you copied the new material from Nuremberg Laws, so a separate null edit was performed to add the required attribution. -- Diannaa (talk) 22:51, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't disagree with removing any of Longerich or Davies sourced material but what is currently in the article is not what the sources say.

• The Aryan Master Race conceived by the Nazis graded humans on a scale of pure Aryan to non-Aryan (who were viewed as subhumans). At the top of the scale of pure Aryans included Germans and other Germanic peoples including the Dutch, Scandinavians, and the English, because they carried a suitable composition of Germanic blood.

The actual source says:

They had no special quarrel with fellow Germanics, like the English. They tolerated the somewhat inferior Latins, like the Italians and the French, who via the Lombards and the 'Franks' were thought to possess a suitable admixture of 'Germanic blood'

Which is why I propose saying:

• The Aryan Master Race conceived by the Nazis graded humans on a scale of pure Aryan to non-Aryan (who were viewed as subhumans). At the top of the scale of pure Aryans included Germans and other Germanic peoples including the Dutch, Scandinavians, and the English, as well as Latins such as the Italians and the French because they carried a suitable composition of Germanic blood.

In Longerich's book the Holocaust: The Nazi Persecution and Murder of the Jews there is no mention on p.241 of "The Nazis considered the majority of Slavs to be "untermenschen" (literally meaning "subhumans")." (which is currently in the article), the only mention of Slavs being sub-humans in the book is on pp-83-84: "Those films which did risk emphatically 'German' themes generally did so by placing their 'German' or 'Germanic' heroes opposite comically caricatured 'foreigners', whether they were Jews, Slavic 'sub-humans', or Englishmen or Frenchmen identified as Western and decadent (meaning: Jewish-influenced)."--Hashi0707 (talk) 05:28, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

I've moved some of the text around to the more appropriate parts of the article, looked at sources and worded text that was currently already in the article to making more sense and supported by the sources and also created a section on Sinti and Roma as it was Jews, Gypsies (Sinti and Roma) and blacks who were persecuted the most as far as racial policy goes. See my edit here.--Hashi0707 (talk) 11:50, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

I know the Longerich citation is valid because I added it myself. The library is closed today for Victoria Day so I won't be able to get access to the book until tomorrow. -- Diannaa (talk) 13:39, 18 May 2015 (UTC) I have removed your unsourced addition and restored the sourced content you removed. Please don't do that any more, as it degrades the quality of the article. -- Diannaa (talk) 13:46, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Sockpuppet? It is very obvious that your edit pattern closely resembles that of User:English Patriot Man. Paul B (talk) 14:50, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree and will open a sockpuppet investigation later today. -- Diannaa (talk) 15:39, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

@Diannaa. What text exactly on p.241 of Longerich's book The Nazi Persecution and Murder of the Jews reflects the article text: "The Nazis considered the majority of Slavs to be "untermenschen" (literally meaning "subhumans")."?

I also want to say that I don't take it kindly to read an ad hominem against me which accuses me of being a sock puppet. I do apologize if my edits seem similar to a previously banned sock puppet but I can assure you it's not me. Nevertheless, feel free to investigate me.--Hashi0707 (talk) 22:30, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Longerich page 241 says that the Einsatzgruppen were told to exterminate Asiatic-looking Slavs, under the assumption that they had inter-bred with peoples from further east such as Mongolians and thus were Untermenchen. The other content sourced to page 241, where we say that (according to Nazi ideology) these Asiatics were under the control of Jewish Bolsheviks, checks out okay. The Longerich page 83 citation checks out okay (though a better source could likely be located), but was being masked because two citations had the same name. I have tidied up these problems and did a quick copy edit of some of the nearby prose. The "Gumkowski" citation available here says flatly that Slavs were Untermenchen, and so apparently does Simone Gigliotti, Berel Lang. The Holocaust: A Reader. I don't have access to that book. -- Diannaa (talk) 22:17, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

But nowhere on p.241 does Longerich say that they considered the majority of Slavs as sub-humans which was what previously was in the article, he says these people were not regarded as Slavs but a mixture between Slavic and Asiatic people which is now accurately mentioned in the article.--Hashi0707 (talk) 20:36, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

I have made two slight edits:

Previous: The Slavs included Poles, Serbs, Russians, Belarusians and an ethnic group named "Rusyns". Initially the term Untermenschen (literally meaning "subhumans") included Ukrainians, Czechs, Slovaks, Bulgarians and partially Croats, but as far as these nations collaborated with Nazi Germany, and despite still being perceived as not racially "pure" enough to reach the status of Germanic peoples, they were eventually considered ethnically better than the rest of the Slavs, mostly due to pseudoscientific theories about these nations having a considerable admixture of Germanic blood.

Current: The Nazis considered the Slavs as Untermenschen ("sub-humans"), including the Slavic nations such as the Ukrainians, Czechs, Slovaks, Bulgarians and Croats who collaborated with Nazi Germany, as they were still being perceived as not racially "pure" enough to reach the status of Germanic peoples, they were eventually considered ethnically better than the rest of the Slavs, mostly due to pseudoscientific theories about these nations having a considerable admixture of Germanic blood.

• There is no mention of Slavs before this assertion in the first sentence and there is no real need to mention different Slavic ethnic groups when Slavs is linked and I've linked the article covering the collaboration to Nazi Germany which will cover this sufficiently.

Previous: The Nazis considered Slavs with an Asiatic appearance to be Untermenschen because of intermingling with Asians or Mongolians.

Current: Nazi propaganda portrayed the populations in Eastern Europe with an Asiatic appearance to be the result of intermingling between the native Slavic populations and Asiatic or Mongolian races as sub-humans dominated by the Jews with the help of Bolshevism.

• It was Nazi propaganda that held this stereotype, not all Nazis agreed with this thought. Also, it's a lot more clearer to first mention "the populations of Eastern Europe" and then further mention it to be the cause of the native Slavic populations and the Asiatics who were considered to represent the sub-humans of the East and were said to be dominated by Jews and the Bolshevik ideology.--Hashi0707 (talk) 21:00, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

It is worth noting that Nazi racial theories even before the invasion of the Soviet Union always thought of the East as racially mixed, this was the common held view by German physical anthropologists that Eastern Europe and the Slavs had an Asiatic admixture. An excellent book which features such work is Eradicating Differences: The Treatment of Minorities in Nazi-Dominated Europe by Anton Weiss Wendt. The most famous Nazi supporter and racial theorist Hans Günther also supported the view of the Slavs as originally Nordic but now racially mixed as a result of mixing with non-Nordic races.--Hashi0707 (talk) 21:04, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Edit to the overall article p.2

@MyMoloboaccount

I've removed some of the text in your recent edits on this article, see here. According to the Nazis racial theories, Poles and Russians were considered Aryan. There is no evidence the Nazis ever defined the Poles or Russians as non-Aryans. They were labeled in Nazi propaganda after the war began as sub-human but this term is not the same as non-Aryan. Sub-human is not a racial term and a variety of people were considered as such by Nazi propaganda.

The Nazis could not define racially a Pole or a Russian, never mind Slavs. John Connelly's article Nazis and Slavs: From Racial Theory to Racist Practice explains this in great detail.--Hashi0707 (talk) 23:48, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Falsification of text by racist author

I have removed a long manipulative chunk of text about Gunther, in fact this is a small part of his introduction which he later turns around and proves that races do indeed exist.The text in the article claimed this was just linguistic category which was false. This was a complete manipulation on what he wrote(the text is available online).In any case the article is about Nazis not about Gunther.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 20:59, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

A "long manipulate chunk of text"? Please do explain how quoting his own words below is a form of manipulation of his view on races?

He said:

People may be heard speaking of a 'Germanic,' a 'Latin,' and a 'Slav' race; but it is at once seen that in those lands where Germanic, Romance, or Slav tongues are spoken there is the same bewildering variety in the outward appearance of their peoples, and never any such uniformity as suggests a race. We see, therefore, that the human groups in question -- the 'Germans,' the 'Latins,' and the 'Slavs' -- form a linguistical, not a racial combination.

And then defined race as:

A race shows itself in a human group which is marked off from every other human group through its own proper combination of bodily and mental characteristics, and in turn produces only its like.

And then explained in his view that the European peoples constituted of five sub-races:

The Nordic race: tall, long-headed, narrow-faced, with prominent chin; narrow nose with high bridge; soft, smooth or wavy light (golden-fair) hair; deep-sunk light (blue or grey) eyes; rosy-white skin.

The Mediterranean race: short, long-headed, narrow-faced, with less prominent chin; narrow nose with high bridge; soft, smooth or curly brown or black hair; deep-sunk brown eyes; brownish skin.

The Dinaric race: tall, short-headed, narrow-faced, with a steep back to the head, looking as though it were cut away; very prominent nose, which stands right out, with a high bridge, and at the cartilage sinks downward at its lower part, becoming rather fleshy; curly brown or black hair; deep-sunk brown eyes; brownish skin,

The Alpine race: short, short-headed, broad-faced, with chin not prominent; flat, short nose with low bridge; stiff, brown or black hair; brown eyes, standing out; yellowish-brownish skin.

The East Baltic race: short, short-headed, broad-faced, with heavy, massive under jaw, chin not prominent, flat, rather broad, short nose with low bridge; stiff, light (ash-blond) hair; light (grey or whitish blue) eyes, standing out; light skin with a grey undertone.

You're going to have to try harder with your straw mans.--Hashi0707 (talk) 21:18, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Falsification of source no2.

The Rise and Fall of the Caucasian Race: A Political History of Racial Identity By Bruce Baum was used to claim Gunther divided "Aryans" into five races.In fact I have the page right before me. The text states on page 156 that Gunther divided "Europeans" into five races, not "Aryans". --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 21:14, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

This part was just copied from another Wikipedia article, feel free to change "Aryans" to "Europeans".--Hashi0707 (talk) 21:25, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Falsification of source no3.

"Günther recognised Germans as being composed of all five Aryan subtypes, but emphasised the strong Nordic heritage amongst Germans" This is sourced to >Anne Maxwell. Picture Imperfect: Photography and Eugenics, 1870–1940. Eastbourne, England: UK; Portland, Oregon, USA: SUSSEX ACADEMIC PRESS, 2008, 2010. P. 150. The source is available online. Once again it has been falsified to claim it writes about "Aryan" race. In fact there is no such thing on page 150. It only says, I quote:"Gunther argued that German nation was composed of five races". --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:22, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

As already explained, it was copied and pasted from another Wikipedia article.--Hashi0707 (talk) 22:50, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Slavs as non-Aryans subhumans sources

@ User:MyMoloboaccount, your sources for this claim are as follows:

• Historical Dictionary of the Holocaust - Page 175 Jack R. Fischel - 2010

No source given for this claim on the page.

• Hitler's Home Front: Wurttemberg Under the Nazis Jill Stephenson page 135

What is the source the author uses as a reference?

• Race Relations Within Western Expansion - Page 98 Alan J. Levine - 1996

No source given for this claim on the page.

• The Politics of Fertility in Twentieth-Century Berlin - Page 118 Annette F. Timm - 2010

No exclusive reference is given here and author concludes to this reference as "Without seeking to be comprehensive, the general accounts of Nazi racial ideology that are most useful for my arguments are:", do you know which reference out of the ones given provide the claim about Slavs?

Since you're so hell bent on making this claim, do you have any actual primary sources from the Nazis that they declared the Slavs to be non-Aryan? This can easily be found for Jews, Gypsies, blacks, mixed race and non-Europeans, not so with the Slavs. Their own documents regarding race prove the exact opposite yet you seem to ignore this.

You also seem to somehow think non-Aryan and Untermensch are synonymous when this is not the case.--Hashi0707 (talk) 21:42, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

I see you're having fun by adding extra sources to somehow "prove" your claim while ignoring completely this talk page. Surely the correct thing to do is discuss on here and not just merely ignore and add more sources?

17 sources altogether, are you for real? Posting more sources does not make your claim anymore truthful.

Anyways, let's have a look again and for the last time at your "sources":

• Emil L. Fackenheim: A Jewish Philosopher's Response to the Holocaust David Patterson, page 23

No source given.

• The Historical Encyclopedia of World Slavery, Volume 1; Volume 7 By Junius P. Rodriguez page 464

No source given.

• World Fascism: A Historical Encyclopedia, Volume 1 Cyprian Blamires page 63

No source given.

• Modern Genocide: The Definitive Resource and Document Collection Paul R. Bartrop, Steven Leonard Jacobs page 1160

No source given.

So you have added all of these "sources" into the Wikipedia article yet not one of them have a reference.

I suggest you read Wikipedia's article Wikipedia:Verifiability,_not_truth#.22If_it.27s_written_in_a_book.2C_it_must_be_true.21.22, I'm not going to bother looking up anymore of your so-called sources because none are verified and trying to discuss with you is like getting blood out of a stone, you seem to think it's acceptable to falsely accuse me of distorting Nazi atrocities, being a sockpuppet and yet ignore my clearly reasonable discussions on talk pages but continue to just edit to articles and ignore anything that runs contrary to your way of thinking and if anyone reverts your edits you resort to an ad hominem of some sort.--Hashi0707 (talk) 23:03, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

I've removed all of these sources and restored the sources from before here and I've removed the other source here as like all the others, no references are given to support the text.--Hashi0707 (talk) 23:14, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Citations in the lead

Drive by comment -- Is the number of citations indeed needed?

• Jews were at the bottom of the hierarchy, considered inhuman and thus unworthy of life.

References

Apologies if this has already been discussed; it just struck me as odd to have so many citations (16) for a statement that I don't believe is considered controversial in contemporary historiography. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:54, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

It's not difficult tell that there's been some recent edit warring, is it. A lot of those references are single usage only, and the publications aren't readily available, so the majority are redundant. I've cleaning up the references slowly, and will judge by the calibre of the publication. There are a few stand-out names in terms of authorship, meaning that just a few will end up being WP:CITEBUNDLED in case of further edit warring. At least you've preserved all of the references for easy access should any arguments come up again. Thanks for the prompt to clean up, K.e.coffman. I think we all end up doing more janitorial work than we expected to when we signed up for the programme! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:22, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

Remove a comma

In the first section, the blockquote, there should not be a comma after 1943. I don't know how to remove it. deisenbe (talk) 13:20, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

Chinese and Japanese

Re [15]

The sources used:

• [16] personal blog, not reliable
• [17] some kind of online forum, not reliable
• [18] reliable but does not support the claim being made by the IP editor. Only says that Chiang Kai-shek's adopted son served for awhile in the Wehrmacht. Indeed, the source says that the temporary alliance between Germany and Nationalist Chinese was only a "marriage of convenience" (reason, but that's what it means)
• [19] some random dude writing crap on an online forum, not reliable

Please stop adding this into the article. Volunteer Marek  15:22, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

Indeed. Also, based on their edit summary, the contributor wants to label all nations whose members collaborated with Nazi as Honorary Aryans. This is not the same. I think there is sufficient sourcing about Japanese (on another page). But including this here in the manner suggested by IP would not be an improvement. This material is already included in section Other groups My very best wishes (talk) 17:55, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

@Volunteer Marek and My very best wishes: these look like typical edits of the blocked User:ProfessorJane. I've been dealing with their numerous IP socks for years. -Zanhe (talk) 09:03, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

What's this nonsense about Jesse Owens

Hitler walked away in order to avoid him according to historians. the Nazis let him stay in same hotel with whites? so what? they also put down some of the anti-semitic signs to avoid international criticism. but comparing that attitude toward J. Owens to the POTUS at that time is horrible. That should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.142.2.203 (talk) 23:55, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

Of course Hitler was putting on a show for the world, and of course he felt blacks were an inferior race, but the fact remains that put on a show he did, it happened that way it happened, and Owens felt the way he felt. It's sourced, it's factual, and it should stay in. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:13, 25 February 2019 (UTC)