Talk:Quim Torra

Nationality of Catalan politicians: see Pudigemont's Talk page

99% of the real world would say that Quim Torra's nationality is Catalan. So I've changed it. An RFC took place on Carles Puigdemont which set a president for all Catalan politicians similar to Puidgemont to be described as Catalan in the opening paragraph. The criteria used for Puidgemont is the same for all politicians, including Quim Torra. So please do not change this back to 'Spanish politician' unless you can explain in what way does Quim Torra differ from Carles Puigdemont as far as the RfC is concerned. The RfC looked at the Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography#Context and agreed that 'Catalan politician' could be used in this opening paragraph. That sets a president (or 'guide' if you prefer) for all other politicians in Catalonia who by word or action are to be described as Catalan. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 04:30, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

@Llywelyn2000: I fully disagree. It is normal for news sources to use the region instead of the country when referring to regional leaders. That does not mean that he is not Spanish. His country of citizenship is Spain and according to both his passport and his Spanish National Identity Card his nationality is Spanish. As a separatist, he wants to change that fact but that does not affect his current status as Spanish citizen.

The fact that you labeled Spain as a "bulling state" indicates that you have a very strong POV on this issue. You have been clearly told by an admin that the "RFC does not set a precedent for other articles. It covers the one case of how Wikipedia should describe Carles Puigdemont. Nowhere in the RFC is it stated that this decision should affect all articles dealing with nationality - for that, you would need a site-wide RFC debated in a central location." and you were also clearly warned that "Using the above RFC to justify sweeping changes to other articles is verging on disruptive" (see here).

Using the RfC to change the nationality of this and other BLPs from Spanish to Catalan in the lead is in my opinion a political use of Wikipedia to support a political objective of independence from Spain, and goes against WP:NOTADVOCACY. Please refrain from further edit warring and respect WP:BRD.--Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 08:07, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

@Llywelyn2000: Do you have any evidence for your assertion that "99% of the real world would say that Quim Torra's nationality is Catalan" Otherwise it is just your opinion and has no relevance. You shouldn't make changes based on your opinions, see WP:OR. ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 08:20, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

No one thus far has given one single bona fide reason as to "in what way does Quim Torra differ from Carles Puigdemont as far as the RfC is concerned". This is the only 'guide' we have as to nationality of Catalan politicians. I ask again. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 06:06, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

The reason is very simple: we only asked about Puigdemont. And people are asking for a new RFC. ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 08:37, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Two years later

Two years later, and the article hasn't been changed, even though there is now a broad RfC on this (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Biography/2018_archive#RfC_on_use_of_Spanish_regional_identity_in_biography_leads). If someone objects to me changing it now, please tell me on my talk page. TheKaloo (Talk to me) 00:45, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

@TheKaloo: Is Quim Torra an ethnic nationalist? I think that for this person the case can indeed be made (its noted contribution to Catalan nationalism before becoming Catalan premier probably were his salient "tirades" moving away from the idea that everyone who live and work in Catalonia are Catalan, hitherto the dominant idea within Catalan nationalism since the 1980s, that boasted about being an "inclusive" brand of "civic nationalism") and some sources actually explicitly describe him as such so the linked [[Catalans|Catalan]] (a link to an article about an alleged "Romance ethnic group" [sic]) could have a point in this particular case. In other cases (whatever the phrasing and the demonym is), vis-à-vis the linking, please just avoid linking to ethnic articles and link instead to [[Catalonia|Catalan]] or link nothing at all as per WP:OPENPARABIO: "Ethnicity (...) should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability."--Asqueladd (talk) 07:41, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

@Asqueladd: well, Catalans are an ethnic group, first off. That's well sourced on the original article. But that's for the Catalans article, not here. More importantly, the 2018 RfC explicitly states that if the subject describes themselves as Catalan and reliable sources also do, then we should refer to them as Catalan. Therefore, what's the problem? TheKaloo (Talk to me) 11:16, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

@TheKaloo: Self-identified Catalans (presumably those who identify themselves as "only Catalan" or as "more Catalan than Spanish" in the Centre d'Estudis d'Opinió surveys in particular) usually understand (or at least express) their Catalan identity as a national one, not as an ethnic one (although this could be changing). This man could be an exception to that, but that's just a guess from sources describing him as an ethnic nationalist. Could you read again what I have written on whether mentioning this man as a "Catalan" or not or you have part of your speech written before?--Asqueladd (talk) 11:23, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

@Asqueladd: huh? Setting aside the part about me having a "written speech", i'm kind of confused by what you don't agree with. I'll put this in points:

1. Are you ok with him being called Catalan in the lead?
2. If so, are you ok with him being linked to the article about Catalans?
3. If not, what do you want Catalan to be linked to? Catalonia? Nothing?

Also, remember the RfC, which sets the precedent. TheKaloo (Talk to me) 11:31, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

1) I am not opposed. 2) Possibly in this case it is ok as exception to the rule (as a prominent defender of ethnic otherization of the population within Catalonia, at least before his presidency, although the article apparently just deals with that in a very "compartmentalised" section). 3) In other cases in which the Catalan demonym could be justified, Catalonia or nothing, depending on the preference of the editor. But not ethnic links as per WP:OPENPARABIO. What should I remember about that RfC?.--Asqueladd (talk) 11:39, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Perfect, then we'll leave the article as is? I really don't want to go into a long-winded conversation about all catalan-related articles. I put the RfC thing because I thought you opposed #1, but if not then we're good. TheKaloo (Talk to me) 11:45, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Crystallizedcarbon: The most recent consensus here is 'leaving the article as is' as of 5 September 2020, this version, which includes Catalan in the lead. The RfC on use of Spanish regional identity in biography leads says There is a consensus that in cases of dispute about what identity the lead sentence should use in Spanish biographies, that if sources generally use a certain identity when referring to someone, and it is clear that the person self-identifies with that identity, to use that identity. Torra identifies as Catalan and refers to the Spanish as a separate people in various contexts. Reliable sources refer to him as "a hardline Catalan nationalist" (The Guardian) and "a staunch Catalan separatist" (the BBC), and note that he "hails from the Catalan separatist stronghold of Girona" (DW). The lead should include Catalan. BlackcurrantTea (talk) 21:00, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Endorse. There was clear support in the RfC for exactly what Carbon just undid. Follow the precedent of community decisions; also the cited MOS guideline actually gives endorsement to keeping Catalan, saying "Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability." which is very clearly here relevant to the subject's notability. Regardless, the 2018 RfC's consensus must be kept. I've rv all the changes Carbon made until the discussion can conclude, keeping the former status quo for now. Jxlarb (Talk to me) 01:58, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Catalan is not an ethnicity, but I undid the edit by mistake thinking it was a different politician and that the status quo had been changed by the edit. That was not the case here. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 16:50, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Ok well I won't get into the discussion on ethnicity, because frankly I don't care about it; I just brought it up as a seperate point and I don't think it's the core of my argument. However, the 2018 RfC clearly says:

"There is a consensus that in cases of dispute about what identity the lead sentence should use in Spanish biographies, that if sources generally use a certain identity when referring to someone, and it is clear that the person self-identifies with that identity, to use that identity"

so seperatist politcians should be kept with the name Catalan. So Crystallizedcarbon are you ok with keeping Quim Torra, Pere Aragonès and Jordi Puigneró as Catalan in the lead, as they are primarily referred to in press as Catalan seperatists? Jxlarb (Talk to me) 19:13, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

I am in favor of maintaining the status quo for now, in all those articles. Previous debates in which I was involved show that many pro-independence editors want their region to be a country and claim it is already one. That is not the case at the moment, but given their ideology, some try to change the fact that they are still Spanish (or at least hide it in the articles). --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 19:41, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

So the status quo is Catalan then? Jxlarb (Talk to me) 23:46, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

In this article yes. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 11:25, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

monarch ??

"monarch" parameter is not apliable in such a box. It is not used in any other spanish CA President, nor in Mayor or other elected position.

I can't understand what makes user:Impru20 spend his time in changing ALL the Catalan presidents articles, in order to type the spanish king or president ruling in this period. No new info added. Just unuseful data added. Boring and stupid behavior, man. A ridiculous spanish nationalist POV. Joan sense nick (talk) 20:55, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

That the "monarch" parameter can't be used in the infobox just because "it is not used in any other spanish CA President, nor in Mayor or other elected position" does not seem like a reasonable argument. Firstly, because it is false (some regional Presidents do use it (i.e. all of the Asturian ones and some others, and it is not difficult to add it either), as well as Prime Ministers). Secondly, because it does not seem like either a policy or source or content-based argument, but just a complain that the parameter should not be used just because of it. As long as the office does not change, the Monarch of Spain is who appoints the officeholders after the Parliament elects them, pretty much like it happens for Prime Ministers, so it makes no sense to show it in one and not in the other. I cannot see how this is "Spanish nationalist POV".

By the way, I would gladly request you not to engage in personal attacks. That's a policy violation which I will not tolerate if continued. Impru20^talk 21:02, 2 August 2018 (UTC)