Talk:Queen sacrifice

can someone translate this into ENGLISH please

can someone translate the chess jargon, PLEASE? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.26.119.240 (talk) 21:29, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

old talk

Queen sacrifice example includes an example already covered on this page. Should we list it for deletion? F e tofs ^Hello! 00:22, 24 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think so, because it illustrates the entire sequence of moves, which would be... unwieldly on the main page. Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 04:04, 24 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not a sacrifice

The example on this page is not a sacrifice, as White is in fact gaining a piece. There must be plenty examples of genuine queen sacrifices. Regards, Guido den Broeder (talk) 16:46, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The 'game of the century' is not a sacrifice either, just a combination (and while looking spectacular, rather easy to spot). Guido den Broeder (talk) 09:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This article is listed at the chess project page as needing work. Bubba73 (talk), 14:13, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reasons

A forced checkmate after the opponent captures the Queen
An enormous amount of material gain (say, a rook and two knights) shortly down the road
Clearing the way for a pawn's promotion to a replacement Queen
The subsequent capture of the opponent's queen, followed by some positional or material gain.

The last three are not true sacrifices either. But a positional advantage is a relatively common reason for a queen sacrifice. In some cases, a strong attack without a forced mate. More often though, a queen is sacrificed by the defending side, out of necessity, to survive the attack and fight for a draw despite some material loss (one rarely sacs a full queen, usually one gets something in return and/or the attacking side had already made a sacrifice of its own). Forced checkmates, on the other hand, are quite rare (but make an attractive example). Guido den Broeder (talk) 17:01, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There was a recent example at the Melody Amber chess tournament. Vassily Ivanchuk played Qxe6!! against ~~Ruslan Ponomariov~~ Sergey Karyakin. That was a sacrifice of a queen for two pawns! :-) Carcharoth (talk) 12:30, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Carcharoth, do you have a link to the game? Regards, Guido den Broeder (talk) 12:44, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, wrong opponent. It was Vassily Ivanchuk- Sergey Karyakin, round 4, Rapidplay, 17th Amber Blindfold and Rapid Chess Tournament, Nice, 2008. The queen sacrifice was 14.Qxe6!! Go to http://www.amberchess2008.com/ and click on "games" - "archived" - then round 4, and select game 9, Ivanchuk 1-0 Karjakin. Carcharoth (talk) 12:51, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm, I don't know. It's an example of a speculative sacrifice. However, this could all be existing theory. Guido den Broeder (talk) 13:56, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to have been a theoretical novelty. A section on queen sacrifices in opening theory might be worthwhile. It depends on whether others have covered it. We can't gather examples ourselves - that would be original research. Carcharoth (talk) 14:01, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Guido den Broeder (talk) 14:13, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Spielmann

I have glanced at The Art of Sacrifice in Chess, and Rudolf Spielmann has a chapter devoted to real queen sacrifices. I have made a superficial jab at using some of his work to improve this article, but if anyone wants to work more with this, that is a good source. Of course, most of the article is about the tactical sham sacrifice where giving up the queen is simply part of a combination with forced variations. (These combinations are sometimes very beautiful, so "sham sacrifice" might be a somewhat negative term, but that is the term Spielmann used. Personally, I have found the queen sac Edward Lasker made against George A. Thomas to be one of the best combinations ever.) Sjakkalle (Check!) 07:32, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good job! Is there an example in Spielmann's book that we could use? Edward Lasker's game is already shown in the Edward Lasker article. Guido den Broeder (talk) 07:49, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One fairly famous queen sacrifice is Larsen – Petrosian, Santa Monica 1966. It is not often that a reigning World Champion is the victim of a queen sac. Quale (talk) 22:29, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Larsen gets a rook, knight, and pawn (plus more to come) for his queen, so that probably isn't true sac. Bubba73 (talk), 22:36, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's generally an issue with queen sacrifices, since the amount of material offered is so great the compensation obtained is usually quite large or the sacrifice is unsound. Truly speculative queen sacrifices are pretty rare. Quale (talk) 00:51, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have delved a bit deeper into Spielmann's book, and he gives two examples of true queen sacrifices from his own play. The second example in the book, against Jorgen Moeller in Gothenburg 1920 might be the best example from that book, because 1) White won the game (in the book's first example, against Maroczy, the game ended in a draw after an up-and-down struggle) and 2) the compensation is much easier to fathom when you see the black queen out on a limb and away from the action. Sjakkalle (Check!) 06:03, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I have gone ahead and added it. Hope this one is a good enough example. Sjakkalle (Check!) 08:44, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it's a good example of positional compensation. Guido den Broeder (talk) 08:46, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

recent changes

The references need more details (author, date, ISBN). Also, I don't see why several of the examples were taken out. I fixed many links and the captitolization of White and Black. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 18:11, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think nearly all the changes introduced by Gaon have been destructive to the article, I don't see why you spend time "polishing" them - they deserve rollback! Ihardlythinkso (talk) 18:58, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

maybe so - revert to the earlier version if you think that is best. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 19:13, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Gaon seems to re-write w/o justification, and the re-writes are poor. I don't have WP rollback rights. How to get to earlier version, short of individual reverts?! Ihardlythinkso (talk) 19:32, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You can go to history, select an earlier version, edit, and then save. It will tell you that you are saving an older version, tell it OK to that. 20:22, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Examples

I will add diagrams of both the games and give more detail about how the sacrifices in both the games occured. Also does anyone have a example of a 'real' queen sacrifice where the sacrifice was of a positional nature.The Gaon (talk) 00:09, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please put wikilinks in new text. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 03:12, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Westing Game

In the 1979 Newbery winner The Westing Game, Theo Theodorakis is playing a chess game with an unknown opponent (whose identity, with assistance from partner Doug Hoo, is later revealed to be Sandy McSouthers [who in turn is discovered to be Westing himself]) and falls victim to the queen's sacrifice, which is noted as being 'the famous Westing trap' (The queen's sacrifice becomes a recurring theme in the end of the book). Does anyone know what the move sequence might have been? It is stated (page 31) that when Theo walks over to admire the pieces, he notices someone has moved a white pawn and responds with a knight move. I suspect these were e5 and Nf6, but that is just an educated guess on my part. Does anyone know what these might be? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.181.160.60 (talk) 22:27, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Why isn't Légal Trap mentioned?

Why isn't Légal Trap mentioned? It is a good example of a queen sacrifice in the opening. Alshfik (talk) 11:07, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

WP:UNDUE weight on Spielmann

This "sham" vs. "real" sacrifice distinction is not made by the general chess community. I feel that using this terminology throughout the article is WP:UNDUE weight and we should have at most a paragraph about this distinction. Jasper Deng (talk) 07:12, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]