Talk:Queen Camilla

Queen Camilla's Standard

Recently, I have been studying the Royal Standards of the United Kingdom and noticed that there has been no publicly used Standard of The Queen with the impaling of her father's arms. DrKay began reverting my edits citing that there was no verifiable source for the use of the ermine variant. Following that, I put on his talk page the following images: [1], [2], [3]. I also told him that I noticed that The Queen used the ermine variant on the state car she arrived in at Constantine II's Service of Thanksgiving. Needless to say, a small edit war insued. I then emailed the College of Arms yesterday, late at night, via their online form. I received a reply this afternoon (an image is provided; image is allowed on Wikipedia as it contains plain text and an image already having a Creative Commons license).

File:Email from the Bluemantle Pursuviant.png

I reverted DrKay's revert and cited the email. DrKay reverted my revert of his revert, saying that private correspondence is not a verifiable source for Wikipedia. I reverted his revert of my revert of his revert, citing the WP:IGNORE policy. However, I must clarify something from a perspective of a person that is quite an expert. This tweet shows the version of Camilla's standard as a Lady of the Thistle. I must say that for consistency, it is more technical to use the ermine variant. It is my speculation, after hearing that her official standard is the ermine variant and that there may be one in the future means that they are probably currently trying to literally make the standards with her father's arms. The banner used for her being Lady of the Thistle might be an independently-made banner not released by the College of Arms. But as of today, her official Standard is the Standard with ermine.
Just remember, there is no reason to not include a banner on her wikipedia page.. There is already an official variant. And there's also no reason to use the banner with her father's arms, as it has been verified by the Bluemantle Pursuivant that she uses the ermine standard. So... What does everyone think?

Yours Sincerely,
SKINNYSODAQUEEN (talk) 21:42, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

@SKINNYSODAQUEEN Please carefully read WP:VERIFIABILITY, which states Unpublished materials are not considered reliable.. A private communication between you and another person, no matter there standing in a matter, is never considered reliable. VERIFIABILITY is one of if not the single most important policy we have here, and you simply can't WP:IGNORE your way out of it. estar8806 (talk) ★ 01:58, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

WP:TRUE goes into this aspect too. No matter how certain you are that something is true, it must be verifiable. You have shown evidence of a private communication, sure, but nobody can verify the information in it, or even verify that it is genuine. And, while it is moot given the above, I note that your correspondent qualifies his response, stating that this is his understanding rather than presenting it as a definitive fact. Rosbif73 (talk) 06:42, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

UPDATE: I was interested in the nature of The Queen's stall plate as a Lady of The Thistle, and I emailed the Bluemantle Pursuviant and received a reply about an hour ago, to which he replied (line break indicated by []): Dear Ms Whittemore [] The stall plates for the Order of the Thistle do not come under the jurisdiction of Garter King of Arms or the College of Arms. They would come under the jurisdiction of Lord Lyon King of Arms. I suggest you contact the Court of Lord Lyon (link below) or Mrs Elizabeth Roads, Secretary of the Order of the Thistle. [] index (courtofthelordlyon.scot) [] Yours sincerely [] James Peill.
An email has been sent to the Court of Lord Lyon.
I thank you for your comments and it has come to me that the best possible thing to do at this moment is to not include a Standard on her Wikipedia page, for now.
Thank you,
SKINNYSODAQUEEN (talk) 19:16, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Regardless of of the comments here, I added a correct source of a Youtube video uploaded by The Royal Family Channel which is unedited and a trusted source, and it verifies the visual appearance of The Queen's Standard and appears to be the Royal Arms surrounded by ermine. SKINNYSODAQUEEN (talk) 01:35, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

@SKINNYSODAQUEEN See WP:YOUTUBE and WP:RSPYT. In a nutshell, a YouTube video is only a reliable source if it comes from either a well-known news or television program (such as the BBC, CNN, or the Associated Press), or from an official channel (of a publisher) (ie. if it came from the Royal Family's official channel). Unfortunately the source you provided does not meet either of those criteria and is not reliable source, so the edit still fails WP:VERIFIABILITY. estar8806 (talk) ★ 01:53, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

The Royal Family Channel is made by ITN. SKINNYSODAQUEEN (talk) 02:00, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't mention the standard anyway, so it immediately fails on that alone. DrKay (talk) 06:02, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

But it's there visually, and I even found another video here, which displays her Standard (in England at least).. As the ermine variant. I don't think it really needs to besaid when you can see it. SKINNYSODAQUEEN (talk) 13:35, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

DrKay,

New citation is a Twitter citation that mentions her standard and includes an image.
SKINNYSODAQUEEN (talk) 14:50, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

No, it mentions the general standard that lackeys use when they don't have another one they can use. I still don't see its Wikipedia:Relevance. We don't stick this information on Diana, Princess of Wales's article, even though the same standard was used for her and the situation nearly identical. This article is a biography of one person not an article about general royal minutiae. I can see the point in showing her personal arms but not a barely significant small decorative icon of another arms that is too small to be seen clearly anyway. DrKay (talk) 15:33, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

But the inclusion and clarification of a Standard is with nearly all consorts. Even Philip, Duke of Edinburgh received a page for his Standard (of which I have now requested deletion of). The inclusion of a Standard was there since her becoming Queen... But suddenly, when it is fact-checked, it is removed seemingly just because it is "too small" to even be noticed by anyone. You cannot blame me for the inclusion of her standard. If you need someone to blame in including a standard without a proper source, you can blame Nford24 for this edit.
All I did in this circumstance is add a correct source and revised the page, as I would expect anyone who has the mind of even the most simple of Wikipedia's principles to do so.
I thank you for your help in keeping with the protection of the rules and guidelines, but now that a correct source and the subject of her Standard has been mentioned, I ask we keep it.
SKINNYSODAQUEEN (talk) SKINNYSODAQUEEN (talk) 15:54, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

As I said, it's not her standard. It is a general one. Philip had a personal standard and didn't use the general one, as far as I know. DrKay (talk) 16:03, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, Philip had a personal standard. Heraldically, I understand the viewpoint that Camilla would use a banner of her arms. However, nearly every modern consort's subject page has included her Standard. While Camilla doesn't have a "standard", she does use the general banner for members who do not have their own Standard. I think it is better to list that she uses that as her banner rather than not put one or have the wrong one put there. We could include the Scottish variant, however, as that uses her Arms.

Oh, and I forgot to mention that I emailed the Court of Lord Lyon. James Peill, Bluemantle, suggested I speak to the Secretary of the Order of the Thistle, and I emailed. They sent me the same image used on the tweet with her Standard above her stall plate... So we could use her Scottish variant, but I feel like that would be odd as most people would be interested in the one she uses the most.
I feel like the ermine standard is a good placeholder for a banner of arms. After all I could just add in notes.. "Queen Camilla doesn't have a personal Standard." and cite the same Twitter source I added a bit ago.
SKINNYSODAQUEEN (talk) 16:10, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

You don't have a source for the contention "Queen Camilla doesn't have a personal Standard." The tweet that you added states explicitly "yet Camilla does .." [have her own standard]. That's the opposite of what you're saying, which also contradicts the Thistle banner. DrKay (talk) 16:22, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, I do have a source that the banner being used for Queen Camilla is the ermine variant of the Royal Standard... Can we just agree to keep it...

Someone had a false fact on the page for two years, unsourced.

I fixed it and suddenly it should be removed? Please explain why, even though it was unsourced, you didn't want to remove her standard even before my corrective edits?
SKINNYSODAQUEEN (talk) 16:26, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

I already have. I'm not going to play the game where you pretend you didn't read my argument about relevance, keeping details of personal arms but not general royal minutiae, and force me to endlessly repeat the same thing over and over and over again at this page, and my talk page, and your talk page, and the dispute resolution board. I don't have to respond to your endless and unceasing WP:BLUDGEONing. So I won't. Congratulations on your success in having the last word. DrKay (talk) 16:31, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

K SKINNYSODAQUEEN (talk) 16:49, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

But let us not forget that I am not the one accusing people of harassment after one edit revert. Let us not forget that you refused to answer the question of not reverting the wrong edit before I even walked in here. Let's not forget that you have also made mistakes. Harassment? No. Truth? Yes. Be silent all you want, but don't be shy to tell why.
I suggest taking that smug look off your face before you talk to me again.
SKINNYSODAQUEEN (talk) 16:55, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

@SKINNYSODAQUEEN You're nearing violation of WP:EDITWAR, you've performed 3 reverts on this page in the last 24 hours. estar8806 (talk) ★ 16:39, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

As there has been no compromise made for this dispute, I will bring it to the proper dispute resolution forum. SKINNYSODAQUEEN (talk) 13:37, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

I've been following the topic of Her Majesty's arms for some time. I wrote this blog post on it back in March, followed by this one in July.

I would also recommend reading this short Twitter thread: The photographs at the bottom (unsourced, likely amateur) clearly show Camilla's Audi with a banner of her impaled arms (though quite why she'd use her banner of arms as British consort when acting in her capacity as Queen of Australia is anyone's guess). The top of the thread shows a Getty photograph by Brook Mitchell. Allegedly you can see the banner of arms, but unfortunately the watermark obscures the image at just the right spot. Robin S. Taylor (talk) 20:16, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes the Queen did use her British standard in Australia. She doesn't have an Australian standard and we don't have a general use (other royals) royal standard in Australia. Nford24 (PE121 Personnel Request Form) 21:18, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

At 00m37s in this video by "The Royal Family Channel" (ITN) you can get a better look at her flag. It's a moving target some metres from the camera so I can't say for certain, but the art style looks like it might actually be the version that Fry1989 made for the Commons. There's a decent chance the picture of a Tudor crown on the Audi's numberplate is one of ours too. Robin S. Taylor (talk) 22:07, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

How it should look

I've mocked up some examples of what her heraldic banner would be in the other realms:

• 
  Antigua & Barbuda
• 
  Australia
• 
  Bahamas
• 
  Belize
• 
  Canada
• 
  Grenada
• 
  Jamaica
• 
  New Zealand
• 
  Papua New Guinea
• 
  St Kitts & Nevis
• 
  St Lucia
• 
  St Vincent & the Grenadines
• 
  Solomon
• 
  Tuvalu

Obviously, the Papua New Guinea version needed some improvisation. Robin S. Taylor (talk) 20:39, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

This is unsourced OR. Only the coat of arms of UK and Canada are the Arms of dominion and hence used by the monarch. Impaling Camilla's arms with those of other realms is incorrect, making all these standards misleading. Peter Ormond 💬 09:20, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

The files are all clearly marked as fictional in both their categories and their descriptions. Robin S. Taylor (talk) 10:58, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

The Queen is presented an Honorary Doctorate of Literature by The Princess Royal

The Queen is presented an Honorary Doctorate of Literature by The Princess Royal ThatNurseLuca (talk) 08:16, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Already covered at List of titles and honours of Queen Camilla. DrKay (talk) 08:19, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

All good. Didn't see, apologies. ThatNurseLuca (talk) 08:22, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 November 2024

Change 'Queen Camilla' to 'Camilla, Queen Consort' 2A02:8012:4A27:0:E889:E83F:E671:7E90 (talk) 08:36, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. DrKay (talk) 08:44, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

The royal order of precedence in private.

“It was revealed that the Queen altered the royal order of precedence for private occasions, placing the Duchess fourth”.

There is no official statement regarding the Order of Precedence and it should not be considered a reliable source of information. Link(Daily Mail) https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-351948/Camilla-Britains-Fourth-Lady-.html

The article written by the Telegraph was published in 2012, which also used the term "royal insider", which cannot be regarded as a reliable official information. And the title of the Telegraph article is "The Queen asks Catherine to Custey to the Royal Bloods Princess". This means that this is not an adjustment for Camilla but for all non-royal blood princesses, then why is this paragraph written as an adjustment specifically for Camilla? KGOO510 (talk) 18:23, 13 December 2024 (UTC)