Talk:Quadroon/Archive 1

Archive 1

Picture not relevant

How does the picture relate to the word at all? 68.175.68.178 (talk) 05:19, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Octoroon

The page for Octoroon redirects here, but there is nothing about Octoroons. It should have it's own page. Octoroon is 1/8 black, 7/8 white. It is the least amount of black that has it's own word, as far as I have ever heard. The word is very infrequently used now, but is found in old books. IE: Many people might NEED to look it up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.20.184.121 (talk) 03:26, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

roon?

Roon means Red . it says quint implies 5. what is roon?

whats the origin of the word? whats it mean? 72.174.2.252 12:10, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

See http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/quadroon -- Ccady 14:44, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

doesnt exactly clear it up. -roon is bastardization of -eron? anyway, I think it belongs in the article.72.174.2.252 17:21, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

*may* be based on marron <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/marron> 89.243.49.205 (talk) 23:00, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Colette

The bisexual French author Colette may have been either a quadroon or an octoroon. Please see the book "Creating Colette." May she be added to the list? jcm 10/08/06

Sean Paul

According to wikipedia's Sean Paul entry, he may be an "octoroon." Is it okay to put him in the list of famous folk? jcm 9/7/8

what's the term for a person who is 3/4 black and 1/4 white?

MY GUESS: This may just be in Brazil, but I think I read once that a person 75% black is called "sambo" over there, but in this US, this is probably a serious epithet. jcm 9/7/6

Gringo300 15:47, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

I think it's just black, I think the rule is round to the blackest name.

Proposed merge

I propose the merger of octoroon and quintroon here as these two are only somewhat trivial extensions of the same one-drop theory of race as expressed in 19th century Louisiana culture.--Pharos 20:21, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I think that could work.

"Famous quadroons" etc.

Mariah Carey is not a "quadroon". These terms were racial categories in the culture of 19th century Louisiana– "quadroon" is not meaningful as a universal word for a person with three white grandparents and one black grandparent. I think the inclusion of Homer Plessy is appropriate as he was part of that culture. Calling Mariah Carey a "quadroon" is a little like calling Harrison Ford a "mischling".--Pharos 19:25, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Good point. I think I fixed it. Omphaloscope » talk 00:45, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that citing modern people of mixed racial background as "quadroons" is accurate, since these terms are no longer used. No sane person in a reputable source would describe Peter Ustinov as an octoroon. Consider also The list of famous bastards; it includes only examples where their bastardy was historic and relevant, and does not include, say, Jack Nicholson. Unless there is great objection, I am going to remove modern examples from this article. Wachholder0 03:20, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I suggest that this section be removed entirely. Exactly what purpose does it serve?--Media anthro 03:19, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I've removed this section. There is no place in Wikipedia for listing people who might have been described as something. We could include descriptions of people as quadroons if we had sources, but that's the limit, I think. Reverse Gear 05:39, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I've added Alexander Pushkin to the popular culture section. As a 19th century writer he may have been referred to as an octoroon. Also, he wrote an unfinished novel about his great-grandfather, The Moor of Peter the Great. But, more importantly, Pushkin is one of the greatest figures in literature and it is not widely recognised that he was of mixed-race descent. 20 May 2007

Is Alexandre Dumas considered a Quadroon? If so I would add him to yhe list of famous quadroons.72.152.37.12 18:49, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Disagree entirely. Yes, the categories are offensive, but just because they are historical doesn't mean that they cannot apply or indicate examples in the modern age. Yes, a child born to unmarried parents is a bastard every bit as much in 2016 as in 1816 or 1616. Yes, a person can be a quadroon in 2016. Same for harlot. Same for any such term. You do readers no favors by pretending that words that are simple categories somehow only apply in historical context. That would be like saying that "tyrant" is an historical term that cannot apply in the 21st century. Absurd. Yes, of course, one can emphasize that the 21st century term for all of these historical (offensive) words is "mixed race" -- but that doesn't mean someone who is mixed cannot also (correctly) be a quadroon. Chesspride 172.164.20.179 (talk) 19:56, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Hexadecaroon

Someone doesn't know their powers of two! I'd suggest that a hexadecaroon probably has an octaroon as a parent, making them fifth generation black, and would therefore be synonymous with quintoon (which is probably used more frequently, if this is correct as implied, exactly because people don't understand the language). Can someone confirm and correct this? BarryNorton 12:53, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

QUARTRONNE-- FAMOUS case of LOUISIANA WOMAN SALLY MILLER

On the Wikipedia page for Sally Miller-- a famous Louisiana woman who won a court case getting her freedom from slavery by claiming to actually be an abducted German immigrant, the court papers cited on the Wikipedia page claim her lawyer argued she couldn't possibly even be a "QUARTRONNE" -- OR PERSON OF 1/16 black ancestry.

PROBLEM: ELSEWHERE I've seen QUARTRONNE as 1/4 black ancestry (like QUADROON, and perhaps a SYNONYM?) Citation "Beyond Black and White: Cultural Approaches to Race and Slavery" (by Ariela Gross from the Columbia Law Review (Vol. 101, No. 3 (Apr., 2001), pp. 640-690 doi:10.2307/1123740)

SINCE THE TERM QUARTRONNE IS PART of a famous Louisiana court case based on gaining a person's freedom, it's too bad it's so unclear between the Sally Miller Page, and not included on this page where it really belongs.

1) Does anyone know whether the term used correctly or incorrectly in the quote on the Sally Miller Wikipage?

2) Either way, shouldn't the term be hyperlinked to this page and defined here?

I hope someone knows about this history! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mcarlenius (talk • contribs) 19:13, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

In Australia they call 'em Kangaroons but I prefer the macaroons, they are much sweeter! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.215.203.11 (talk) 12:43, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

MICHENER'S "CARIBBEAN"

In James A. Michener's 1989 book, "Caribbean," he describes a "system" of hypodescent devised by a fictitious 18th-century character in the book, Jerome Espivent of Cap-Française (now Cap-Haitien) in the French colony of St.-Domingue (now Haiti). In that system, he included the familiar terms of mulatto, quadroon (1/4 black) and octaroon (1/8 black). But he also included the next generation (1/16 black), which he called a "mameluke." The system also included names for a number of other combinations, including 1/8 white, called a "sacatra;" 3/8 white, called a "marabou;" and 1/4 white, a "griffe." I wonder if this "system" was an invention of Michener's, or if it really was a system devised in the 18th or 19th centuries. Does anyone know?

Yes, Sacatra and Griffe are known racial terms for people with predominantly Black ancestry; Griffe (ethnicity) is reciprocal (inverse) of quadroon, 3/4 Black and 1/4 White; and Sacatra is reciprocal of octoroon, 7/8 Black and 1/8 White. (You can Google these terms to find source references for them.) --- On the other hand, I believe Marabou (ethnicity), which already has its own article, is a general term for predominantly Black racial mixture, without specifics. --- Your comment is very good. Sacatra and Griffe would be excellent additions to this article. However, with these additions, perhaps the article should be "moved" and re-titled to something such as: "Mixed-race terms". Some Wikipédian who is a native speaker of English will probably have a better name suggestion. --- Comments??? Bien amicalement, Charvex (talk) 07:32, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Who watches this page?

Back on the 24th of Feb 2010 an editor came along and completely changed the introduction. They left it simplified, and badly written. You lot, three or four of you contributors to this page, came by and tweaked the stupid, inappropriate edit to make it more explanatory and more grammatically correct.

But it wasn't the problem the lack of precise detail that was of concern. The problem was that the sentence had been changed from the past to the present. The big change was to take out the word historically, and rewrite the sentences as if these terms were still in current use!

I can't believe that so many editors could stuff around tweaking those sentences and not notice that the meaning had suddenly become radically different.

Before such a radical change was made, back in 2010, there should have been discussion, and the person who made that change should have been asked to come up with a reference to indicate that the terms are in current use, in some official or legal sense. Amandajm (talk) 14:31, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

To make matters worse, as always happens, these inappropriate changes have been copied to other sites. Online Encyclopedia [1] gives the wikipedia intro as a definition, and to my absolute annoyance, also quotes that the term is used in Australia. It hasn't been used in Australia for the last fifty years. Amandajm (talk) 14:45, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Inappropriate introduction

Here is the entire content of the intro that I have removed. It is placed here so that the various divisions of racial discrimination can be put into the past tense.

Realise that these terms imply precise degrees of discrimination. Are these terms still in current usage in 21st century America?

If they are nt, then the changes that were made to the intro a year ago, have to go.

The real change was not about dividing "quadroon" from "octaroon" etc etc etc, and treating them as if they all meant something vastly different. Basically, they all mean the same thing! What they really mean is "discrimination".

What needs fixing here is not the precise divisions.

What you editors need to discuss is 'whether these terms really are in current use?

The editors here need to state their race/ethnicity as it can be used in a process of elimination to remove any biases and establish veracity of the entries, and present those who are in the best position to say whether something should be strictly confined to a bygone era. I'm Black, and I use these terms, even if they are somewhat archaic and quaint, because they are not obsolete and are still very useful, and still culturally relevant in a way that somewhat analogous words for other categories of race like 'mischling' are not, and which, unlike quadroon and the ilk, mischlinge is an imprecise word that can be used in different contexts and interpreted in many ways. There are no synonymous words to quadroon of equal or greater standing. Practically no-one currently uses these descriptive nouns in a pejorative fashion, and so I agree with keeping the entry in the present tense, and making use of possible modern day examples.72.252.237.3 (talk) 17:34, 9 March 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.252.237.3 (talk) 17:28, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

NOTE: In the quotation that is given in the intro, the term "mulatto" is used exclusively in the past tense. If you don't understand what "tense" means, then it means that the quote uses the word "was" (meaning "in the past") not "is" (meaning "still happening")

NOTE: The word "historically" was removed from the article by the same person who rephrased the entire intro into the present tense. The word "historically" needs to go back into the first sentence again. Or doesn't it?

"Quadroon" is (NEEDS FIXING) a racial category of hypodescent used to describe a person of mixed-race with a quarter African and three-quarters Caucasian ancestry. In Australia, the same term refers (NEEDS FIXING) to the proportion of Aboriginal and Caucasian ancestry. Griffe has been the usual term for someone of ¾ African heritage, or the child of a mulatto parent and a fully black parent.

The family heritage of a quadroon is (NEEDS FIXING) one biracial (mulatto) parent (African/Aboriginal and Caucasian) and one Caucasian parent; in other words, one African/Aboriginal grandparent and three Caucasian grandparents.

"Octoroon" refers (NEEDS FIXING) to a person with one-eighth African ancestry; that is, someone with family heritage of one biracial grandparent, in other words, one African great-grandparent and seven Caucasian great-grandparents.

"Terceron" is (NEEDS FIXING) a term synonymous with "octoroon," derived from being three generations of descent from an African ancestor (great-grandparent).

"Mustee" also refers (NEEDS FIXING) to a person with one-eighth African ancestry; Mustefino or quintroon or hexadecaroon refers (NEEDS FIXING) to a person with one-sixteenth African ancestry.

The mulatto was the offspring of a white and a black person; the sambo of a mulatto and a black. From the mulatto and a white came the quadroon and from the quadroon and a white the mustee. The child of a mustee and a white person was called the mustefino.

The word quadroon is borrowed from the Spanish cuarterón which has its roots in the Latin quartus, which means "fourth". This racial designation refers (NEEDS FIXING) specifically to the number of full-blooded African ancestors, emphasizing the quantitative least. The word octoroon is rooted in the Latin octo, which means "eight," based on quadroon.

Amandajm (talk) 00:14, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Look, no one would object to changing the tense, but don't use this as an excuse to delete information. -- cheers, Michael C. Price ^talk 05:15, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

The changes that were made to the tense of the verb in the first sentence, were left uncritically and then stupidly and inappropriately reinforced by the subsequent edits. The people who made those subsequent edits need to come back here THINK about what they are writing, and express it in terms that are appropriate. I.e. every sentence needs to make it clear that these expressions of discrimination were used in the past and are not in polite parlance today. Every one of those sentences is incorrect. The people who wrote them need to be alert to the fact that you think before you write.

Where are the people who added the subclauses?

Amandajm (talk) 00:54, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

I detect a very emotional tone in your comments. Are you sure you are able to judge this information objectively? This article isn't about "discrimination," it is about a racial classification, whether or not it is discriminatory. In particular, have you bothered to research whether these terms are really "[not] in usage in 21st century America?" Have you read the wikipedia article on "mulatto" (which is well referenced)? It states, in reference to Brazil for instance:

"The term mulatto (mulato in Portuguese) does not carry a racist connotation and is used along with other terms like moreno, light-moreno and dark-moreno."

Actually this kind of racial terminology is normal and frequently used in Latin America (where it originated). So your assertion that the present tense is wrong or that the whole section should be deleted as "expressions of discrimination" is both incorrect and seems to show a serious POV conflict. Perhaps distinguishing between usage in the English-speaking world and in Latin America would be appropriate. This article is written from a perspective that this terminology is historical only, which is not the case. Giordano Bruno (talk) 21:56, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

References

Order of listing

In terms of black ethnic background if I understand properly...

• 3/4 = griffe/sambo
• 1/2 = mulatto
• 1/4 = quadroon
• 1/8 = octoroon/terceron/mustefino

How come we don't list this in a clear order like that? Right now it goes:

• quadroon 1/4
• mulatto 1/2
• octoroon 1/8
• quintroon 1/16

That's odd, it should ascend or descend. I think we should give each its own section based on the fraction. Ranze (talk) 07:14, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Intro - quotations around "subordinate"

The relevant sentence is:

"The use of such terminology is a characteristic of hypodescent, which is the practice within a society of assigning children of mixed union to the ethnic group which is perceived by the dominant group within the society as being "subordinate"."

This statement appears to have a citation, which is a printed text. (Which I don't have access to.) So I can't confirm if the use of the word "subordinate" is due to that source. If use the term subordinate was quoted from that source, I don't think that source should be used. My issue is the word should not be used in quotations, which expresses doubt or disbelief, since the intro refers to a historical period where such was in fact the case, i.e., octoroons were not merely perceived as subordinate, they were subordinate, legally and socially. So I have an issue with the word "perceived" as well, as it was more than a perception. I would re-write the sentence as "...considered by the dominate group within the society as being subordinate." Giordano Bruno (talk) 21:56, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Slave.

What was the lowest share of Black heritage recorded in a person who was a slave? --YOMAL SIDOROFF-BIARMSKII (talk) 00:55, 10 November 2016 (UTC)