Talk:Prune plum

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Etymology

This etymology is very weak. I do not know enough to write new one, namely as this would rely on German sources. This etymology do not explain anything and rather proclaim stuff, so deleting this section would be ultimately better.

However, I deleted only the single wrong stuff, Zwetschge can't be source for Czech Švestka, when Švestka is from around 1450 while at that time (well, a bit after that, 50-100 years according to my source), there was only German quetsch, which is completely dissimilar to Švestka. See http://nase-rec.ujc.cas.cz/archiv.php?lang=en&art=3719, yeah countering German source with Czech source on English wiki:/ but this source offer much better explanation and sources of this information (names of document), while the German source sucks a lot. 2001:4530:2:406:FFFF:FFFF:FFFF:FFF1 (talk) 04:09, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The German source that "sucks a lot" is Grimm; there can hardly be a more distinguished authority. I have restored the reference, but omitted (in deference to Czech sensibilities) the relationship to Švestka. Frans Fowler (talk) 20:10, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I am removing the passage about the Czech word švestka. It is not needed in this article, it is not referenced at all, and the proposition that zwetschge is from Czech švestka is specifically refuted in Grimm. (See the Grimm reference in the article.) Frans Fowler (talk) 20:56, 3 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Zwetschge not the same as Damson

English often translates zwetschge as damson, but zwetschgen are not damsons. The confusion is also present on en.Wikipedia. The damson is Prunus domestica subsp. insititia, a clingstone plum; the zwetschge is Prunus domestica subsp. domestica, a freestone plum. See the University of Melbourne Multilingual Multiscript Plant Name Database.^[1]

So prevalent is the misidentification of the zwetschge as a damson that the names used in English for zwetschge (especially damask plum) are also treated as synonyms for damson. The same apparently goes for the name quetsche, which is a cognate of zwetschge in the old (German) dialect of Alsace but applied more generally in France to Prunus domestica subsp. insititia.

In German, the distinction is clear: Krieche = Prunus domestica subsp. insititia; Zwetschge = Prunus domestica subsp. domestica

Frans Fowler (talk) 19:41, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

On Wikidata:Interwiki conflicts/Unresolved/2014 September, see plum (Q6401215)/Prunus domestica (Q44120)/plum (Q13223298)/Prunus domestica subsp. insititia (Q149195) for possible related interwiki conflicts. Frans Fowler (talk) 18:06, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Let's speak English. Whatever happened to the Italian Prune Plum ???

This page is misnamed and a mess Isn't the correct name of this plum variety the Italian Prune? Isn't it also rather bizarre that one of the most highly cultivated plums in Europe should have an unpronouncable German name in English?

http://www.produceoasis.com/ProductDetailPage/TabId/272/pid/179/Fruit/Plums-Italian-Prune.aspx http://www.gardeningknowhow.com/edible/fruits/plum/growing-prune-trees.htm

Shouldn't it also link to the Węgierka page in Polish: https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C4%99gierka_Zwyk%C5%82a

I don't have time to clean up this mess 78.11.154.119 (talk) 13:22, 20 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Italian prune plum seems always to be referred to as Prunus domestica; the zwetschge is Prunus domestica subsp. domestica. There is at least one name (Fallenberg) that occurs as a variety both of the Italian prune plum and the zwetschge, but I cannot find a source for the proposition that Italian prune plum and zwetschge are synonymous or coterminous.

Węgierka is a disambiguation page on Polish Wikipedia. Węgierka Zwykła on Polish Wikipedia links to a variety (Hauszwetschge) for which there is no separate article on English Wikipedia yet. Without undoing that link, Węgierka Zwykła cannot be linked to the Zwetschge article.

--Frans Fowler (talk) 20:42, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Sorting Prunus Names: http://www.plantnames.unimelb.edu.au/Sorting/Prunus_Pt2.html

Requested move 20 February 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 23:58, 27 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Zwetschge → Prune plum – Zwetschge is a German word not very commonly used in English, and it is the same thing as the prune plum, which is oval, sweet, freestone and suitable for making prunes. There are various sources indicating they are synonymous.^[1]^[2]^[3]^[4]

References

^ "Zwetschgen (Italian Prune Plum)". German Food Guide & Directory. Retrieved 2021-02-20.
^ "Prune Plums". Cook's Info. 2004-12-22. Retrieved 2021-02-20. Prune Plums hold their shape far better in baked goods, and won't make the surrounding dough or batter mooshy. They are very popular in Bavaria, where they are called "Zwetschgen", for making Plum Cakes and dumplings from.
^ "Zwetschgenplatz". Susan Goldstine’s Family Recipes. Retrieved 2021-02-20. Pflaumen are plums, and Zwetschgen are prune plums.
^ Mann, S. E. (1955). "Review of Česká a slovenská jména rostlin. (Czech and Slovak Plant-Names), Václav Machek". The Slavonic and East European Review. 34 (82): 264–268. ISSN 0037-6795. švestka 'prune-plum' (see Kluge 15: Zwetschge)

– Neux-Neux (talk) 20:21, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. According to this list (not necessarily authoritative, but gives a good impression of general usage) in English we are looking at, among other names: blue plum, damask plum, German prune - "Zwetschge" is not the primary name in international use. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 18:21, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support - Thank heavens there is an English name! I spent ages trying to find one. In the UK, they retail as plums (if you can get them at all), and in recipes they often appear as damsons, both of which are confusing.Frans Fowler (talk) 12:48, 22 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[1] Sorting Prunus Names: http://www.plantnames.unimelb.edu.au/Sorting/Prunus_Pt2.html

[2] "Zwetschgen (Italian Prune Plum)". German Food Guide & Directory. Retrieved 2021-02-20.

[3] "Prune Plums". Cook's Info. 2004-12-22. Retrieved 2021-02-20. Prune Plums hold their shape far better in baked goods, and won't make the surrounding dough or batter mooshy. They are very popular in Bavaria, where they are called "Zwetschgen", for making Plum Cakes and dumplings from.

[4] "Zwetschgenplatz". Susan Goldstine’s Family Recipes. Retrieved 2021-02-20. Pflaumen are plums, and Zwetschgen are prune plums.

[5] Mann, S. E. (1955). "Review of Česká a slovenská jména rostlin. (Czech and Slovak Plant-Names), Václav Machek". The Slavonic and East European Review. 34 (82): 264–268. ISSN 0037-6795. švestka 'prune-plum' (see Kluge 15: Zwetschge)

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Etymology

Zwetschge not the same as Damson

Suggested Link Amendments in Other Articles

Let's speak English. Whatever happened to the Italian Prune Plum ???

References

Requested move 20 February 2021