Talk:Project 97 icebreaker

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Military history: Maritime / Russian & Soviet / Cold War / Post-Cold War C‑class

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Proposed merge

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

I am withdrawing the merge request. Tupsumato (talk) 20:37, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I propose merging Ivan Susanin-class patrol ship to this article and deleting the separate article for the subclass. Tupsumato (talk) 19:19, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Weak oppose due to the fact that these subclasses have different class names: Ivan Susanin class (Project 97P) and Dobrynya Nikitich class (Projects 97, 97А, 97K, 97B, 97D, 97N, etc.), as per cited references. --88.200.141.237 (talk) 11:05, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose my own proposal; see discussion under the other move proposal. Tupsumato (talk) 16:39, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 30 January 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Adumbrativus (talk) 02:16, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Project 97 icebreaker → Dobrynya Nikitich-class icebreaker – WP:SHIPNAME § Naming articles about ship classes. 88.200.141.237 (talk) 09:15, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

~~Oppose~~ Support. The problem is the diversity of Project 97: while the civilian and naval icebreaker variants are quite similar from both technical and operational point of view, in particular the hydrographic survey and scientific research vessels (97B, 97N) are quite heavily modified. However, the Russians still consider them as part of the "Project 97 family" and one of the primary reasons why I decided to write a single article covering all subclasses is to emphasize the relationship between the different versions. Also, I wonder if western/NATO designation should be given priority over original Soviet/Russian name in Wikipedia? I admit I'm not that familiar with the naval vessel naming convention here but even if the class name (Dobrynya Nikitich) is applicable to the naval variants, there is also a large number of civilian vessels under the same project number. Tupsumato (talk) 12:26, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Norman Polmar also classifies civilian versions as the Dobrynya Nikitich class: Polmar, Norman (1986), Guide to the Soviet Navy (4th ed.), Annapolis, Md.: Naval Institute Press, pp. 357, 372, ISBN 0-87021-240-0. --88.200.141.237 (talk) 13:45, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All of them or just 97A? Baker referred to 97B as "heavily modified" Dobrynya Nikitich which it technically is. Jane's Fighting Ships 2006–2007 lists just three (Buran, Peresvet and Sadko) under "Dobrynya Nikitich (Project 97) class", but also makes note about "of the 18 others originally built". I can check older ones but I have to summon them from the archives. Tupsumato (talk) 14:00, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Tupsumato: Yes, all of them, including Project 97А, 97D, 97N vessels. According to Polmar: Project 97, 97А, 97K, 97АP, 97B, 97D, 97N vessels are the Dobrynya Nikitich class (only the Project 97E vessel is missing), Project 97P ships are the Ivan Susanin class. --88.200.141.237 (talk) 15:05, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for clarifying that. In the meanwhile, I have asked for an older copy of Jane's because I want to see how the more obscure variants are handled there, but I doubt it will be much different from the other source.

Anyway, I'm changing my opinion regarding this move. To be honest, I'm not even sure why I was so strongly against it to begin with. Instead, I'm thinking about the best way to handle the more heavily-modified Project 97 variants. The best course of action is likely to create those missing individual ship articles (I'll try to get those done over the weekend unless someone does it first) and write a few sentences about them in the main class article under something like "derivative designs" which should also cover the distinct Ivan Susanin class.

Furthermore, since there doesn't seem to be a solid convention for choosing western (NATO) name over Russian "Project" (or PLAN "Type", for that matter), I'll open a discussion about amending the guideline on the talk page.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Tupsumato (talk • contribs) 16:57, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Military history has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 15:19, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Ships has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 15:21, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.