Talk:Progressive rock/Archive 7

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Contentious unsourced material

The following section is unsourced and has been tagged since August as problematic. It might come from a scholarly source and be very helpful, or it could be poorly informed opinion. As it is unsourced, we do not know, and as it hasn't been sourced since it has been tagged, then a removal here is appropriate. Editors may look for sources to support the statements and then return the material to the article. If sources cannot be found within a reasonable space of time, then the material will be archived. SilkTork *^YES! 23:42, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

The material appears to be a cut and paste from [1], though it might be the case that progarchives.com copied it from here. To be safe, I have tagged it as a copyvio to allow experts in the matter to look into it. SilkTork *^YES! 01:49, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

I've just looked into it, and the website acknowledges that it comes from Wikipedia. SilkTork *^YES! 02:00, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

As far as I know (but I am not an expert on Prog-Rock), these characteristics are by and large correct. Maybe it is a nice idea if we looked for sources for each of these claims and then we restore the claims where we have found sources for?--Merijn2 (talk) 12:59, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Musical characteristics

Form: Progressive rock music either avoids common popular music song structures of verse-chorus-bridge, or blurs the formal distinctions by extending sections or inserting musical interludes, often with exaggerated dynamics to heighten contrast between sections. Classical forms are often inserted or substituted, sometimes yielding entire suites, building on the traditional medleys of earlier rock bands. Progressive rock music also often has extended instrumental passages, marrying the classical solo tradition with the improvisational traditions of jazz and psychedelic rock. All of these tend to add length to progressive rock music pieces, which may last longer than twenty minutes and are usually not "songs" per se, but musical works that have a lot more in common with more established musical concepts.

Timbre: (instrumentation and tone color): Early progressive rock groups expanded the timbral palette of traditional rock instrumentation of guitar, organ, bass, and drums by adding instruments more typical of jazz or folk music, such as flute, saxophone, and violin, and more often than not used electronic keyboards, synthesizers, and electronic effects units. Some instruments – most notably the Moog synthesizer, the Mellotron and the Hammond organ – have become closely associated with the genre.

Rhythm: Drawing on their classical, jazz, folk and experimental influences, progressive rock artists are more likely to explore time signatures other than 4/4 and tempo changes. Progressive rock generally tends to be freer in its rhythmic approach than other forms of rock music. The approach taken varies across different works but may range from regular beats, such as 4/4, to unusual compound time signatures, such as 9/8, to asymmetrical meters, more prevalent in Eastern music, such as 5/8 and 7/8.

Melody and harmony: In progressive rock, the blues inflections of mainstream rock are often supplanted by jazz and classical influences. Melodies are more likely to be modal than based on the pentatonic scale, and are more likely to comprise longer, developing passages than short, catchy ones. Chords and chord progressions may be augmented with 6th, 7th, 9th, and compound intervals; and the I-IV-V is much less common. Allusions to, or even direct quotes from, well-known classical themes are common. Some bands (notably King Crimson) have used atonal or dissonant harmonies, and a few, such as Henry Cow, Shub-Niggurath, and 5uu's, have even worked with rudimentary serialism.

Texture and imagery: Ambient soundscapes and theatrical elements may be used to describe scenes, events or other aspects of the concept. For example, leitmotif is used to represent the various characters in Genesis' "Harold the Barrel" (from Nursery Cryme) and "Robbery, Assault and Battery" (from A Trick of the Tail), and more literally, the sounds of clocks and cash registers are used to represent time and money in Pink Floyd's The Dark Side of the Moon.

Other characteristics

Technology: To aid timbral exploration, progressive rock bands were often early adopters of new electronic musical instruments and technologies. The analog synthesizer is the instrument best associated with progressive rock – for example, the modular Moog used by ELP, the Minimoog by Yes, the ARP Pro Soloist by Genesis, and the Oberheim by Styx. The mellotron, particularly, was a signature sound of early progressive bands. Pink Floyd utilized an EMS Synthi A synthesizer equipped with a sequencer on their track "On the Run" from their 1973 album The Dark Side of the Moon. In the late 1970s, Robert Fripp, of King Crimson, and Brian Eno developed an analog tape loops effect (Frippertronics). In the 1980s, Frank Zappa used the Synclavier for composing and recording, and King Crimson utilized MIDI-enabled guitars, the Chapman Stick, and electronic percussion.

Concept albums: Collections of songs unified by an elaborate, overarching theme or story, are common to progressive rock. As songs by progressive rock acts tend to be quite long, such collections have frequently exceeded the maximum length of recorded media, resulting in packages that require multiple vinyl discs, cassettes, or compact discs in order to present a single album. Concepts have included the historical, fantastical and metaphysical, and have even, in the case of Jethro Tull's Thick as a Brick, poked fun at concept albums. One very well-known example is Genesis's The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway, an album about a boy named Rael who undergoes different adventures in search of his brother John.

Lyrical themes: Progressive rock typically has lyrical ambition similar to its musical ambition, tending to avoid typical rock/pop subjects such as love, dancing, etc., rather inclining towards the kinds of themes found in classical literature, fantasy, folklore, social commentary or all of these. Peter Gabriel (Genesis) often wrote surreal stories to base his lyrics around, sometimes including theatrical elements with several characters, while Roger Waters (Pink Floyd) combined social criticism with personal struggles with greed, madness, and death. Modern bands such as Muse, who use progressive elements in their songs, often use themes such as war and repression by government (especially in the former's case) in their writing. Muse's third album Absolution (album) is based around the apocalypse, and Matt Bellamy has also used science fiction to inform his lyrics on songs such as Unnatural Selection, Newborn, Exo-politics and the Exogenesis symphony.

Presentation: Album art and packaging is often an important part of the artistic concept. This trend can be seen to have begun with The Beatles' Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band and played a major part in the marketing of progressive rock. Some bands became as well known for the art direction of their albums as for their sound, with the "look" integrated into the band's overall musical identity. This led to fame for particular artists and design studios, most notably Roger Dean for his work with Yes, and Hipgnosis for their work with Pink Floyd and several other progressive rock groups.

Stage theatrics: Beginning in the early 1970s, some progressive rock bands began incorporating elaborate and sometimes flamboyant stage theatrics into their concerts. Genesis lead singer Peter Gabriel wore many different colourful and exotic costumes within each show and frequently acted out the lyrical narrative of the songs, Pink Floyd would utilize burning gongs and crashing airplanes and inflatables, Yes incorporated futuristic stage sets designed by Roger Dean, performing 'in-the-round', and one of ELP's many stage antics included Emerson's "flying piano" at the California Jam concert, in which a Steinway grand piano would be spun from a hoist. Now-days bands such as Uzbek FromUz also include theatrical elements in their shows

Musical characteristics (again)

I removed the following from the article and bring it here for discussion:

Form: Progressive rock music either avoids common popular music song structures of verse-chorus-bridge, or blurs the formal distinctions by extending sections or inserting musical interludes, often with exaggerated dynamics to heighten contrast between sections. Classical forms are often inserted or substituted, sometimes yielding entire suites, building on the traditional medleys of earlier rock bands. Progressive rock music also often has extended instrumental passages, marrying the classical solo tradition with the improvisational traditions of jazz and psychedelic rock. All of these tend to add length to progressive rock music pieces; while some songs are about the same length as those in any other genre of popular music, others can last upwards of 20 minutes, resembling sonatas and other musical forms not typically encountered in rock.

Timbre: (instrumentation and tone color): Early progressive rock groups expanded the timbral palette of traditional rock instrumentation (guitar, bass, drums and sometimes piano or organ), adding instruments more typical of jazz or folk music, such as flute, saxophone, and violin, and more often than not used electronic keyboards, synthesizers, and electronic effects units. Some instruments – most notably the Moog synthesizer, the Mellotron and the Hammond organ – have become closely associated with the genre.

Rhythm: Drawing on their classical, jazz, folk and experimental influences, progressive rock artists are more likely than most other rock musicians to explore time signatures other than 4/4 and tempo changes. Progressive rock generally tends to be freer in its rhythmic approach than other forms of rock music. The approach taken varies across different works but may range from regular beats, such as 4/4, to unusual compound time signatures, such as 9/8, to asymmetrical meters, more prevalent in Eastern music, such as 5/8 and 7/8.

Melody and harmony: In progressive rock, the blues inflections of mainstream rock are often supplanted by jazz and classical influences. Melodies are more likely to be modal than based on the pentatonic scale, and are more likely to comprise longer, developing passages than short, catchy ones. Chords and chord progressions may be augmented with 6th, 7th, 9th, and compound intervals; and the I-IV-V is much less common than in more traditional forms of rock music. Allusions to, or even direct quotes from, well-known classical themes are common. Some bands (notably King Crimson) have used atonal or dissonant harmonies, and a few, such as Henry Cow, Shub-Niggurath, and 5uu's, have even worked with rudimentary serialism.

Texture and imagery: Ambient soundscapes and theatrical elements may be used to describe scenes, events or other aspects of the concept. For example, leitmotif is used to represent the various characters in Genesis' "Harold the Barrel" (from Nursery Cryme) and "Robbery, Assault and Battery" (from A Trick of the Tail), and more literally, the sounds of clocks and cash registers are used to represent time and money in Pink Floyd's The Dark Side of the Moon.

This was added last month by an anonymous user with no edit summary or explanation. None of this is sourced, which means it was either lifted from a source without attribution, meaning a possible copyright violation, or it is original research and synthesis. In any case, it cannot be allowed in the article unless it is sourced. ---RepublicanJacobite_TheFortyFive 14:47, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

I see above that this same material was removed almost a year ago by SilkTork. Clearly, in that time, no sources were ever found for these claims, and the material was obviously copied, again, from the same source. ---RepublicanJacobite_TheFortyFive 14:54, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Guys, the article is essentially a History of section. Without Musical Characteristics, it is for all practical purposes a stub and not useful for a person who wants to understand how to differentiate between progressive and other subgenres of rock. Please find reliable sources and add some material, if not the same as the above-mentioned, to make the article useful to casual music fans. Easwarno1 (talk) 14:30, 3 May 2012 (UTC)