Talk:Progressive rock/Archive 5

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Jethro Tull

Is it really an accepted fact that Jethro Tull are Prog Rock? They always struck me as having more in common with Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath than with Yes or Genesis. I know the "sources" call them Prog, but the same sources state that Welcome Back My Friends... was released in 1976, and that "Prog Rock" and "Art Rock" are synonymous terms.

It's true that in the '80s they did win the Grammy for Best Hard Rock/Metal album, and Aqualung is a pretty guitar-heavy album, but in many other respects they fit the prog mold--with two extremely concepty concept albums, covers of jazz, classical, and folk tunes, lots of odd instruments such as the krumhorn and portative organ (not to mention the flute, of course), and numerous songs in weird meters, such as "Living in the Past" which is either 5/4 (3+2) or 10/8 (3+3+2+2) depending on how you analyze it. 65.213.77.129 (talk) 15:49, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Piero Scaruffi/NPOV

I added the NPOV tag to this section as it reads very much like this one critic's opinion, and no other. Carolus (talk) 03:55, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

yea, you are right, this entence:

Piero Scaruffi claims that "[t]echnically speaking ... progressive-rock began in 1967 with Cream and The Nice", which he describes as "groups that reacted to the simple, melodic, three-minute pop of the early Beatles", and notes that if "a more stringent definition, one that considers ambition and pretentiousness" is used, this "would push the birth date [back] to the Pretty Things' S.F. Sorrow (1968) and the Who's Tommy (1969

can't be left in, look, there was a reason why i began the talk page on album reviews over NOT including scaruffis reviews (i won by the way, because a lot of people thought i'm right), and since he isn't regarded as a citable source when it goes to specific bands then we can't let him judge over a whole genre.

i won't accept that such a quote, which shows again his hate of everything the beatles did, such a BIASED quote against this band, is still here on youtube. please search something out by a man who knows about music and is capable of NOT bringing his hate again specific bands into it.

i mean he hasn't any real musical education at all, it's like my granny writing on the internet and rating the albums of her youth.

i hope you will find a better quote.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.196.251.157 (talk) 08:01, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Manfred Mann's Earth Band

Any particular reason why this mighty fine band deserves no mention whatsoever in this article? Were MMEB really that unknown or unpopular? --79.193.65.55 (talk) 01:50, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

I have never seen this group described as "prog" or mentioned in relation to any of the classic "prog" groups. If you have a source that says otherwise, feel free to add them. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 16:15, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Did you even look at the article? Progressive rock is mentioned not only as their genre in the infobox at the top, or as the only musical genre category the whole article is sorted in. Every single one of their 1970s albums, and most of their later albums are listed as progressive rock here on Wikipedia. MMEB is like the prototype of a progressive rock band by combining rock music with jazz/fusion, classical influences, usage of electronic effect units in a style reminiscent of Musique concrète, concept albums on environmental (Messin', The Good Earth), space (Solar Fire, partly The roaring Silence), and biblical/spiritual/historical issues (partly The Roaring Silence again), extended experimental solos/bridges, and the Moog synth (Manfred is often seen as the uncrowned king of virtuous Moog use in rock music) which this article here describes as one of the quintessential prog instruments. Angel Station might also be considered a concept album in its own right, the way it is described both in Manfred Mann's Earth Band and in its own article.

Quotes from the article on MMEB: "Manfred Mann's Earth Band is a jazz/rock group", "The Earth Band [...] combined the stylistic approach of progressive rock with Mann's jazz-influenced Moog synthesizer playing and keen ear for melody." "Mann's interest in English 20th century classical music saw him adapt Gustav Holst's Planets Suite ", "Mann trained as a classical musician, and his love of classical music surfaces in references within songs."

With the genre of progressive rock as the 1970s heir to its 1960s predecessor, Psychedelic rock even mentions MMEB as one of the core 1970s progressive rock bands right next to King Crimson: "Psychedelia resurfaced in the work of other Progressive Rock acts like Curved Air, King Crimson, Manfred Mann's Earth Band, Pink Floyd, Procol Harum, Quiet Sun, Supersister and The Enid."

What other genre would you place MMEB in but progressive rock? I guess the problem here is that they're mainly remembered for two rather mainstream pop-oriented hits, Davy's on the road again and Blinded by the light. --79.193.123.33 (talk) 20:27, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Whilst I agree that MMEB can be considered prog-rock, the problem is that the article cannot mention every single prog band otherwise it would never end. It doesn't mention Jan Dukes de Grey, for example. Given that we mention (a) creators of prog (b) notable prog bands in countries other than the US & UK and (c) prog "revival" bands (Porcupine Tree, IQ), I think further additions should be justified, and MMEB were slightly after the main inrush of prog from 1968-1971. I'll leave it to other editors to judge whether your reasons are adequate. Rodhullandemu 20:40, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

I thought 1968-1971 was the era of influentive/formative predecessors (The Beatles, Zappa, The Nice, Moody Blues...), while the apogee of prog roughly equalled that of glam rock, which was the whole first half of the 1970s? Even still, MMEB were founded in 1971, which was still within your "main inrush". What about the fact MMEB were probably one of the internationally most commercially successful and widest known bands that were playing mainly progressive rock, a genre that was always credited with a reputation of avant-garde obscurity? You might also make the case that they are among the most persevering, long-lived prog bands by surviving the onslaught of genres such as punk, wave, disco, etc. Were there really that many other prog bands striking million-selling hits and churning out critically-acclaimed albums during the late 1970s? --79.193.123.33 (talk) 21:08, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Allmusic.com

Is it really a certainty that this website is a reliable source? I've seen some absolutely laughable claims and "facts" on that website. Just one example but the article on Goblin begins "The fact that Goblin was an Italian progressive rock band already makes them somewhat unique..." WTF? Oh, there's an even bigger whopper isn't there? The very first words on the "Prog Rock" article(listed here as reference/source #1 it must be noted) state "Progressive rock and art rock are two almost interchangeable terms..." Now nobody who has ANY knowledge of Progressive Rock OR Art Rock (two totally different terms) would make such a stupid statement. The people at allmusic.com clearly are simply ignorant yet need to make entries for "that other music". Yet it is used as the defining point for Progressive Rock. Likewise, progarchives.com considers Iron Maiden, Miles Davis and The Doors to be Progressive Rock? And Jerry Lucky? Just one example, but in his 'Progressive Rock' book, turning to the entry for Gentle Giant, we are given such facts as a)'Acquiring The Taste' was also released with the title 'Motive'. b)'Octopus' was released in 1973. c)John Weathers joined the band in 1976, just in time to make his debut on the 'Interview' album! With nonsense such as this, can these people really be used as reliable authorities? Some people have attempted to correct the misinformation in this article, but have had their edits reverted because "that is not what the source says". But surely if the sources themselves are riddled with factual errors and POV, then some new standard should be set? Any thoughts? Unconscious Power (talk) 10:17, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Eastern/folk confusion

The "Precursors" section has numerous references to 60's bands incorporating "Eastern" elements. I have no idea what this refers to or how it relates to prog. There is no reference to prof being a genre that uses "Eastern" elements anywhere else in the article (and in particular, in the Characteristics section), so highlighting this as an element in prog "precursors" doesn't make much sense to me. Does it relate to 'folk music'??? (Another mysterious term to me, but it is used at various times throughout the article.) 213.171.207.20 (talk) 03:17, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Russian Prog rock success

>bands like Little Tragedies, EXIT project, Kostarev Group and Disen Gage reached major success in the Russian rock scene and were noted outside Russia.<

Oh please. These bands are known among the fans of progressive rock, which are not so numerous as the author would like us to believe. InProg festival takes place in relatively small clubs, yeah, they may seem packed, but that's because the venue itself is not big. I can't tell the exact numbers, but about 1 000 people visit InProg every year - for a big country like Russia this is not really impressing. The aforementioned bands do not receive any airplay on the radio, they cannot be seen on television, and InRock magazine is probably the only magazine to write about them. So, what "major success" are you talking about? UseYourDelusion (talk) 17:48, 21 September 2009 (UTC)