Talk:Pozsony County

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Naming

"Bratislava county" in preference to "Pozsony county" at any time prior to 1919 here seems unquestionably wrong to me. — Mike Gogulski^{↗C•@•T↗} 21:51, 27 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I completely agree, it's unqestionably wrong to refer to "Pozsony county" as "Bratislava county" in this case (before 1920), the county is a completely different entity from the city. For one the city exists today and the county ceased to exist in the 1920s at the latest ,probably earlier in the normal sense of the word. Hobartimus 18:36, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to move the page, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 00:49, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The English name for Bratislava was Pressburg as documented at Talk:Bratislava with many sources. The name Pozsony county does not make sense in English, and it is dominantly used only by Hungarian sources or people who use those as a source (e.g. [1]).
For English sources, see, for example, Britannica from 1911 or these historical maps.--Svetovid 12:44, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

These sources are not about Pozsony county but about the city the two are not the same. Do a google search on "Pressburg county" (one of the results is a sevtovied sandbox page) 17 results for "Pozsony county" 525 results, the numbers speak for themselves. Hobartimus 13:32, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Support

Support as nominator.--Svetovid 13:44, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Support. According to a lengthy discussion at Talk:Bratislava, the name "Pressburg" is more widespread in English sources than the name "Pozsony". Tankred 13:20, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Support withdrawn until more evidence is presented. Tankred 16:22, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Do not be ridiculous please we both know that a city is a different entity from a county. You write above "Pressburg" vs "Pozsony", but this article is about "Pozsony county" vs "Pressburg county".Hobartimus 13:25, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hobartimus, I would appreciate if you could remove your personal attack against me from this discussion. Tankred 13:35, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for removing that personal attack. Tankred 13:45, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I just wanted to express my frustration about what I see as am emerging pattern of edits on Wikipedia. Just to be clear I did not consider it a personal attack and it should have been directed more at someone else, not you, but I respect your objection so I removed it. Hobartimus 14:54, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What about the frustration caused by the use of sock puppets?--Svetovid 16:17, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Support, regardless of the circumstances before 1919, the more common English name for both the city and county was Pressburg or similar, Pozsony is only from Hungarian literature. If someone's going to snowball me because of my vote, remember that this is English wikipedia, not a Hungarian one. MarkBA ^t/c/@ 13:52, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Withdrawing my vote until more persuading evidence for Pressburg is presented. MarkBA ^t/c/@ 16:56, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

voting is not a substitue for discussion and by immidiately starting a vote before any discussion could take place I fear that this is an attempt by some to exploit the low traffic of this article. Also this is not a standalone article it is part of a template of a series of articles on historical hungarian counties. Hobartimus 13:49, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Google Scholar has 11 hits for "Pozsony county" and zero for "Pressburg county". Though it wouldn't matter much if they were, I'd like to point out that not all of the hits have Hungarian authors. Google Books: 33 for Pozsony, 7 for Pressburg. Plain Google with "-wikipedia" added to exclude possible bias stemming from the current title of the article: 301 for Pozsony, 6 for Pressburg. (525 vs. 17 without "-wikipedia".) For me, this is far more than enough to conclude that when speaking about the county, Pressburg is nowhere near being the most frequently used name in English. KissL 14:48, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- As mentioned above, the Google hits are full of Hungarian sources written in English. Google Scholar and Books hits are also dominantly not from native speakers.--Svetovid 16:09, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- All but one google scholar hits refer to articles written by Hungarian authors. This is hardly convincing as evidence for English usage. On the other hand, there are several books written by apparent native speakers using "Pozsony county". Although many of the ordinary google hits still point to Wikipedia's mirrors or Hungarian websites, the term "Pozsony county" is clearly more frequent in the Internet than "Pressburg county". I am going to strike out my vote, hoping to see more evidence (especially encyclopedias - if any of them mentions those counties at all). Tankred 16:20, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  And the remaining hit (the one about sturgeon) uses "Poszony county" in an excruciatingly literal translation of the title of a paper (in Magyar) from 1902. This is not an "English usage". Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:51, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree the Scholar hits aren't really convincing, but "Pressburg county" still has zero hits, native or not... so I fail to see how this would support the move. K issL 16:37, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Much more frequent usage of "Pozsony county" was already proved as per above and elsewhere. This article is part of a series of articles about historical hungarian counties, consistency within this series should be maintained. All other county articles have their official names used as evidenced on the template seen at the bottom of the article. The title should also be consistent with the content, the maps and sources currently in the article which all list the county as "Pozsony county". Hobartimus 15:41, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The so called consistency is disputed because it is not based on anything else but ignorant use of Hungarian names in an English encyclopaedia. A template or anything else created at Wikipedia is not a valid source at all (see WP:V). The templates need to be corrected accordingly indeed.--Svetovid 16:09, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In this case consistency means that names should not come randomly from all languages so the reader will not be confused and will be able to actually find something if he is intrested. You should better spend your time on demonstrating at least 'some' usage of "pressburg county". At this time (not counting your own sandbox) you stand at 6. Hobartimus 16:25, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose. This looks very much like a case where is there is no clear English name for the place. In such cases, we default to the local historical name for the district, in writing about the period in question, per WP:NCGN. I see no evidence about Slovak usage about the organization under the Dual Monarchy; therefore, since the county was part of the Kingdom of Hungary, I must go with Poszony county for now. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:02, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Even the Slovak sources I've seen use the Hungarian name for the county. — Mike Gogulski^{↗C•@•T↗} 23:22, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

"...we both know that a city is a different entity from a county."

From Britannica:

“

PRESSBURG, a town of Hungary, capital of the county of the same name.

”

--Svetovid 13:44, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Aha so the wikipedia article on the city must be renamed to Pressburg since they are the same, they must be treated the same right? Please immidiately start a proposal on the talk page of Bratislava to rename the article to Pressburg. After the renaming we can add the phrase :"Pressburg, a town of Hungary" to the Bratislava article since you value this source so deeply(/end sarcasm). You intrestingly forget to mention the small fact that you quote the 1911 britannica and instead you simply write britannica. Hobartimus 13:56, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Don't be silly. Pressburg is historical name, not a current one and county is historical too. You seem to take this too personally. Although German names are more appropriate here, as English used them more, a Latin name would be most neutral here. MarkBA ^t/c/@ 14:02, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It was meant as a joke to prove the point that the county really is different from the city. The city exist still today and has the name Bratislava, and the county is not in existence today. I must stress this point because some of you seem to misunderstand and bring arguments here from talk page Bratislava, which is about the CITY, a completely different matter and use sources about the CITY. Hobartimus 14:10, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Talking about Britannica, the current Britannica Online gives 2 hits for "Pressburg county" and 5 for "Pozsony county". K issL 15:13, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Google search

proposed "Pressburg county" 17 results including Svetovid sandbox and names in parantheses eg. Pozsony county(Pressburg county)
current "Pozsony county" 525 results

Images, content currently in the article

Don't use Hungarian images and maps if you want to be taken seriously.--Svetovid 14:37, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The title should be consistent with the sources and content we already have, and also with the official name, and official language in question. If you can show me another contemporary historical map which can be considered an important source on "Pozsony county" we will also take that into account. Hobartimus 14:45, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Copied from WP:RM by Stemonitis 15:35, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

As per evidence provided on Talk:Pozsony county the proposed "Pressburg county"(-wikipedia) yields 6 results on google vs 301 for "Pozsony county" the current title. All other test show that the usage of the proposed "Pressburg county" is much less used than the current "Pozsony county". Hobartimus 15:27, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The name of the county is "Pressburg", which is why the proposed name is with county in brackets. Calling the city Pressburg and the county Pozsony would be confusing, pointless and inaccurate.--Svetovid 16:13, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.