Talk:Power (international relations)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Untitled

Hyperpower gets an article but not Great Power?? -- CJWilly

At least not yet. You are free to write it, and connect it properly to the other articles. From the What links here-link you can see that an article of its own might be motivated, but that's not necessarily so. Some Wikipedians would maybe argue that this article is best integrated. --Johan Magnus 07:11, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Disputed powers

Canada and Australia as disputed powers? Now that's funny! And what about Mexico, Brazil, Egypt, Israel, they're far more powerful.

The thing about Canada and Australia is that they are developed countries, while Mexico, Brazil, and Egypt are developing. Israel is much too small to be a great power. It would be like saying that Luxembourg should be a great power because Luxembourg is a role player in the European Union. Casey14 00:06, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Mexico, Brazil and Egypt are still more powerful, and Israel too in terms of military, influence, and nuclear power.

Added the Netherlands to Great Powers throughout history, instead of disputed. Since the Netherlands is officially the first modern superpower. See superpower.

Portugal frustrated the Ottomans in the Indian Ocean/India and booted the Dutch out of Brazil in the 17th century (so much for Dutch "superpower" - great: yes, super: no). Hence deleted Portugal from disputed. 1 Dec 05 (A.W.C.M)

Read this: Dutch Golden Age aswell as Second Anglo-Dutch War. Around that time the Netherlands have been regarded as a world power. Wich is also in the 17th century. So at a certain time in history they have been a superpower.

Conceded - after all have done a few edits myself highlighting how the rise of Dutch power in that time. Cheers. Rob 7 Jan 06

Disputed Powers

I'm sure Portugal and Italy were great powers at some point in history. Portugal had a large empire around the time of the huge Spanish empire, and Italy was a great power around the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

Italy was not a great power. It was powerful at a time, but not a great power. The only time Italy could be considered a great power was the years before World War One through World War Two. But then again, Italy was a weakling, during World War One, compared to neighbors Austria-Hungary, France, and Germany. After World War One, leading up to World War Two, France and Germany were still more powerful. Mussolini was considered a play thing of Hitler. Casey14 00:04, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Italy fought 11 great battles against the Austrians in WWI in incredibly mountainous terrain - against entrenched forces - diverting massive numbers of Austro-Hungarians from the Western Front. They felt aggrieved that their major contribution was down played at the end of the war. In stark contrast WWII Italy was pathetic. 1 Dec 05 (A.W.C.M)

The major issue I want to report is Italy, first of all the downfall of Italy as a great power was 1943 and not 1945. In 1943 Italy surrendered and in the two subsequent years it passed thru German invasion, Civil War and Allied Occupation. So 1945 is wrong. The bigger mistake is not considering Italy as a Great or even Major Power from the 80's till present. Italy is a member of the G-7, meaning is a major economic power,in certain years was the 5th major on earth, the Made in Italy is the second most competitive after Made in Germany, the international trade is big, since the war it has grown at a very high rate, almost like Japan. It has a population, GNP and economic position like that of France and UK,altough in recent years it has fall behind a little. If you consider GDP PPP Italy as the same amount of total GDP as France. Italy has many more big or medium companies than Russia, India or China. It has companies active in gas and oil field, the biggest of whose is ENI,which is one of the major players in that fiels. Take Germany for an instance, it has none, only subsidiaries of foreign companies, it has Rurhgas and some Utilities but a Petroleum company it doesn't have, and Italy has. Italy also has a residual amount of Gas and Petroleum but nevertheless it has more petroleum than Germany, Japan or France, altough it has almost none too. The diplomatic and International Relations of Italy in the recent years changed too.Now Italy is not anymore the silent partner of the Franco-German axis on EU, it is an important partner of UK and has halted some federalistic ambitions of the Franco-German axis. Even on the World stage its word is more important than someone could judge at first glance and than many countries. What was the diplomatic achivement of the G4 so far, none. Italy with her allies has managed to block the entrance of this countries to UN Security Council. It proposed semi-permanet seats or permanent seats on a reagional basis with rotation,like another from EU which could be to Germany, Italy or even Spain or even more EU members on a rotational basis, others seats to other parts of the world. If the G4 proposition would go thru many important countries no only economically,but also geostrategically speaking would remain outside the real decisions. And don't forget who is the 4th net contributor to UN budget-Italy. Also in foreign relations, the position of Italy is geostrategically much more important these days than that of Germany. Cold War is over,in that time Germany was at the center, now the problem is in Meadle East and Arab countries in general, ao Italy is much more well connected, its like an aircraft base in the middle of the Mediterranean .Japan could be important in future, but today altough its is the 4th spender in defence and as large armed forces, they only serve to self-defence and peace missions. And what was the first real war Germany was allowed to intervene in the post WWII- Kosovo in 1999.It had a smal contigent in 1991 in the Gulf War, but nothing like Italy.Japan cannot enter agressive wars, Germany could only after 1990,when Italy could after 1970. Italy entered a real and difficult war cenario in 1982 in Lebanon and altough at the beggining the allies mistrusted Italy,in the end its participation was fulcral even to safeguard the life of french and USA citizens. In 1991 it sent a substantial contingent to Operation Desert Storm mainly consiting of F-104 and Tornado Bombers, which made their very countribut too. In 1999 in Kosovo was the same, even more with the AM-X Ghibli. In Iraq, (agree with the war or not) Italy has the third largest contingent, many italians have died and even a secret service official was killed in a position of honour, defending the life of a civilian. Italians are not cowards as the anglo-saxons tend to generalize. In military technologies Italy has it indigenous industries, the major of which is Finmeccanicca, a huge conglomerate. It builds its own tanks like the Ariete, Tanks destroyers, like Centauro, Dardo AFV's and many more. It builds missiles and is part of MBDA consortium, the second largets of the world after Raytheon corporation in missile technologies. Italy has a small aircraft carrier and its building another one bigger, with the most powerfull conventional(non nuclear) angine of the world. As I know Germany and Japan doesn't own aircraft carriers, nor big destroyers like the 2 ones Italy is building with France, and the 10 frigates of ultimate generation its building with France too. In terms of Nuclear capabilities, German and Japan sometimes talk of owning its own deterrent force, but the only missiles Germany is supposed to have owned was in WWII. Itally planned a nuclear destroyer in the 60's,nuclear submarines which would have been equiped with Polaris missiles, but it was forced by the USA, Nato and other preesures of its own to abanon them. But it lauche one of the first satellites of the world, has an important space agency-ASI, its the thir more important member of ESA, the VEGA project its almost all from Italy, and in the 70's it tested sucessfully ballistic missiles- ALFA, made by italian industry, but the signed the Non Proliferation Protocol,but in the early 80's the idea emerged again and it Italy was to have its own Force de Frappe, if you don't believe ask Mr. Lelio Lagorio, defence minister at the time. It builds since the 60's good conventional submarines,the last in cooperation with Germany. Italy has the third most important Navy of EU and the 6th of the world, Germany only equalls that of Holland. It builds fighter aircrafts too. It entered the Tornado and EFA Typhoon programm, with a minor quote but is part of the consortium. Since the 50's it produces advanced jet trainers from Aermacchi sold all over the world with much sucess, helicopters, it has build the firs attack heli in EU, the A129 Mangusta, now its one of the major player in that industry, owning AgustaWestland. It also haves Alenia, Telespazio, Avio, Selex, Fincantieri, Otobreda, Iveco Defence Unit.The Fiat G91 was another sucess, winning a NATO contest for a light attack and strike aircraft, Germany bought and manufactured under license many of them. The AM-X was mainly Italian, altough Brazil had a 30% quota on it. So you put Brazil as a potential Major Power and Italy, wich deserves a place for a long, you don't even consider it for the future. Even if Brazil growns economically, in military, international relevance, its nothing compared to Italy. Doesn't have nothing indigeneous in terms of military-industrial, while Italy has lots of things. Brazil, India and China have aircraft carriers for instance, but they are old crapp bought from real Major Powers. Even in the F-35 JSF Italy is a 2nd level partner, being the USA the main contractor and the only first level partner the UK. Its is a partner also in the Dassault Neuron UCAV.ACamposPinho 03:48, 6 May 2006

Dates

It would be helpful if someone could write beside each 'great power' the general period when they were or are considered great powers. Eg: USA (XXXX - present). Also in the Great powers of modern history section, it would be good if you could write what time period is considered modern history.

Modern History is usually considered the time from the fall of the Roman Empire through the present.Casey14 00:06, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

You're joking - I hope. I thought it grew out of and followed the Renaissance - the rise of humanism, later Descartes, the era of European exploration, the Reformation, the rise of science, etc, that ended Medieval modes of thinking. 1 Dec 05. (Australian working class man).

Sorry, I must of been having a brainfart, because the start of modern history is the Renaissance. Not any fall of the Roman Empire. Casey14 01:45, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Casey - sorry - accept that "early" modern era immediatly followed the medieval - since "early modern" is now used for the "Renaissance". Personally I like to think of the Renaissance/Reformation as a transitory period between the two - but you were right - though I think it looks as if you see my point of view too. Robert 1 Jan 06

The Great Power page has some minor mistakes like date of rise of Spain is Spain unification,right, but it was in 1492 not 1469, other thing I think is wrong is the downfall of Portugal, you can consider 1580/81,but you can consider the period from 1640 (reconquest of independence to Napoleonic Wars and Brazil independence as another period in which the country was a great power, and any historian will confirm it, in this period the country was so or more important than before. Another example is Japan, you cannot consider it a power from 1905-Present. You can consider it a Great Power between 1905 and 1945 and then from a date like late 70's or early 80's to present a Major Power, because if you consider it was always a Great/Mjor Power so you should do the same to Germany too. In the period 1945-50 Japan was occupied by USA forces, you should know it and was not even a sovereign country, from the 50's thru the 70's it went thru a major economic growth, but I think the 70's/80's is the best place to put Japan as a Major/Great Power again, but even today its more a economic power than a great power in all the senses that definition carries.ACamposPinho 03:49, 6 May 2006

Poland-Lithuania and Denmark Not Fake

How does someone view this as fake. It held substantial power in Central Europe before the Swedish Empire, Prussia, and Austria rose to power. The same goes to Denmark.Casey14 00:12, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Some unkown user needs to stop taking these off the list.Casey14

Regional Powers taken off

Until regional powers such as: Nigeria, Mexico, Norway, South Africa, Brazil, Israel, and others reach great power status or even on disputed, they won't be on the list, because they only hold regional power.Casey14 22:02, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

India as a Minor Power

During the Rennaissance in Europe, India was ruled by the Mughal Emperors and Sivaji to the South, both powerful empires. Post-independence, India has fought 3 successful wars with Pakistan, a war with China and a border-skirmish with Pakistan in 1999. It possesses Nuclear Weapons and is the 2nd largest Military Force in terms of numbers in the world. Added to that, it's PPP is 4th in the world, India should be classed perhaps slightly less powerful than China at this stage.203.214.59.210 04:35, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

India has yet to earn its stripes. They were trashed by the Chinese. Beating up the Paks in the 1970s hardly counts more than being secondary regional power (behind China). China shocked America in Korean war in the 1950s! A few years ago they had trouble dealing with incursions across the border by proxies for Pakistan (1999 -2000). I entered the Moghul in the place of India because at their height they were the real thing. Yes they have nukes but great power is about projecting your power/influence effecively. Robert 7-Jan-06

The chola incident seems correcting the earlier attitude of "Not requiring an army at all" to "elephant showing the tusks".Bcs09 (talk) 01:51, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

They were 'thrashed' by the Chinese in 1962, ages ago, and the Kargil War in 1999 was a clear victory although India was firstly taken by surprise by Islamic guerillas. After the Kargil War the Indian Stock Market shot up by 1500 points. Apart from that, as mentioned above, it is the 2nd largest military force in the world.203.214.59.210 04:35, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Added to that, India would now control most of Pakistan if Indira Gandhi didn't return land in the 1971 war. If you disagree with anything, see the articles on the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971 or the 1999 Kargil Conflict. They clear up India's military dominance in the region.

Military Power alone isnt a criteria for a Great or Middle Power. India exerts massive pull on the global scene with its competitive economic prowess and is poised to dominate in the near future. When a country with nil global reach such as Australia with an almost non existent military capability can be considered a middle power then India in comparison is a great power. (Look at the Economic/Military/Cultural) statistics of India and compare them with the other powers.)

Germany and Japan

Why are France and the UK still on the list as a "Great Power" and Germany and Japan just until 1945? Both of them are important economic powers today.

I changed the start date for Japan from 1868 to 1898, which was when they got rid of the unequal treaty consequentially to their victory in the Sino-Japanese War. Also I've added stuf about 1919.Harrypotter 21:56, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

In modern IR UK and France are "powers" by a variety of criteria (UN security council permanent seat, nukes, ability to project power outside their region, etc" - Germany and Japan are the best examples of non military based power post 1945. Their economic strength enables chequebook diplomacy, thus demonstrating power is not solely derived from military might (hard vs soft power, etc) 160.5.247.213 21:44, 27 February 2006 (UTC) (Pickle_UK not logged in)

Great Powers post WWII

Given the disparity between the post WWII power of the superpowers and the rest is it meaningful to speak of "Great Powers" post WWII? 8-Jan-06

UK, France - great powers post 1956? In a time of super-powers and "hyperpower" there is no such thing - as their ability to act independently - as shown by the Suez - is severely circumscribed - or to put it another way - the UK is very much the follower in Iraq. As for EU - well it may bepossible one day, but at the present it looks anything but powerful, as Iran has shown with the "EU 3". 210.49.196.39 00:26, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

With respect, you are completely mistaken, the two major players in Iraq I & II were the United States and the United Kingdom, in that they supplied the most money and military power, the balance of the coalition were the 'followers', however, even employing such a term suggests a lack of understanding, in that, in a military coalition ALL partners have equity. Twobells^t@lk 16:24, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I very much agree. The dates here are meant to reflect the dates of prominence of modern great powers—anyone who thinks Britain is as prominent today in world affairs as it was in (say) 1850 is missing more than a few hotels in his Monopoly set. Albrecht 16:31, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Britain, France, and Germany are all still great powers. There have always been fix or six great powers in the world at one time. Currently those three, China, Japan, the US, and Russia compose the great powers. Just because those three are not as powerful as they once were, does not mean they wern't great powers. They can control world policy. Casey14 00:17, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorry to interfere, but who added EU as a emerging power?? The EU is so fragmented. It is so hard to develop a consensus between France, Britain and Germany. --Spartian 07:47, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth

Should we add it? Something like 1576-1658, 1683-1704?

who keeps on changing russia to present

Russia is still a world power. Russia can influence the world. Russia's power is huge. Just because the economy is shaky, does not make it not a world power. Like my post under powers pots WWI, Russia is a great power.

Just like after the 30 Years War: Sweden, Austria, England, France, Spain, the Ottomans the Netherlands and posssibly Denmark and Portugal were world powers. After Congress of Vienna: Austria, Prussia, Russia, France, Britain, and The Ottoman Empire were world powers, as Spain might have been clinging upon the status, but would lose it. Aftter World War One: France, Britain, Russia, Japan, the US, Italy, and arguably Germany were world powers. and we can go on and on, there are more than just two or three powers at a time, there are five, six, or seven.Casey14 00:26, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

china is not a world power its military is very primitive

China could easily control the world. China may be an industrializing nation, but its military is the largest on the earth. Casey14 18:19, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

armies need to be advanced not only big and the pupulation hates the goverment so they will probaly desert

who thought that france was a world power when it was occuipied is hilarious i changed it

after world war 1 germany was not powerful

can someone erase china

Can someone erase India then if they are going to erase china? Since India's economy and military lags behind China's. Also its weird that the "primitive" military of China spends the second most on military in the world...maybe they are not so primitive. O btw China has the 4th largest economy in the world and the 2nd largest by PPP. Only a fool wouldn't china on there.

Just a note, it would be good if everyone signed their posts. Thanks. Secondly, China's definitely deserves to be on this page. It is categorized as a Major power and Potential Superpower. However, exaggeration tends to get the better of us, China cannot easily control the world, secondly China's military is not primitive but is technologically backward, this cannot be denied. Nobleeagle (Talk) 05:43, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

A plan of action for this page

This page, as power (international) should not be considered a page detailing great powers and the role of great powers in society. It has been agreed on other pages that deal with such a topic (Superpower, Major power, Potential Superpowers) that the power hierarchy is as follows:

• Hyperpower
• Superpower, a state that has overwhelming control on international politics and meets all of the criteria for a superpower.
• Major power or perhaps Global power, a state that meets most or all of the criteria but not to the extent of a Superpower (note that some Major powers and Potential Superpowers, namely India, China and the European Union).
• Great power, a state that has considerable control on foreign affairs and representation on the world stage. Yet not to the extent of a Major power.
• Regional power, a state that exerts considerable influence on its region, yet does not exert this influence on the world stage.
• Middle power, a state that has little influence on other nations but does have limited representation in other nations.

This means we must:

1. Create a new page called Great power
2. Categorize countries in these groups on this page.
3. Remove all the great power stuff from this page and work out a proper definiton for international political power.

I'll wait a while for your views, before taking a course of action. Nobleeagle (Talk) 05:50, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I broadly agree with you but I disagree with your view of the ambit of the term 'Great Power'. My view is that the term Great Power applies to those countries pre WW2 which were the most powerful of their day (UK, France, Germany possibly US) - each of these were roughly equivalent in power. It is only post WW2 that the concept of the Superpower has arisen, since then the concept of Great Power has not been applied.

I would therefore agree that there should be a Great Power page, but dealing with it as a historical concept. The ranking should be Hyperpower - Superpower - Major Power - Regional Power - Middle Power - The Rest of the World.

Xdamr 11:04, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

That was my understanding too, but the fact that this page was dealing with current Great Powers made me think that perhaps it was different. I'll set to work when I have the time. Great Powers are Pre-WW superpower-type powers. Any disagreements to that definition? Nobleeagle (Talk) 23:21, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Done apart from creating the Great power page. Nobleeagle (Talk) 01:07, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Who erased China?

I don't know. By the way, I've improved Regional power greatly. Nobleeagle (Talk) 07:20, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Remember, this is a Great Power page, not superpower

I just wanted to remind everyone this was a great power page, because someone might start saying India or China or even Portugal/Denmark/the Netherlands arn't or wern't great powers. However, they meet all great power criteria. Also, when making the dates, for example Spain, which lost superpower status at the War of Spanish Succession, but didn't lose great power status till The Spanish-American War. Casey14 23:18, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry if this was my mistake, but I treated this page as power (international) or International Power as it is called in the template in the See Also section (which I created under that impression). So I thought that this could be a summary of all the power categories. I think it's necessary to seperate this content and create a Great power page with seperate content. Nobleeagle (Talk) 07:30, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

how comer china has to periods and germany is one huge thing for exnaple after WW1 it was not powerful and after WW2 for a while it was also not that powerful

Because China that is listed is now in Taiwan, while the new China is the People's Republic of China.

Portugal

I'm not particularly informed on Portuguese history, but I noticed its great power status ended during the Spanish annexation. While that did end its status as a global power, couldn't it be argued that Portugal contined Great Power status into the 1600's? Portugal was also a major player in Imperialism, though I doubt its armies or economy compared to the other great powers. I'm not taking a position, just inquiring. 12.220.94.199 02:39, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Great Power v. Power in International Relations

I think that we could possibly do with some clarification of the appropriate subject matter for this page. Power, in the context of international relations, encompasses many different gradations; from the hyperpower to the major power to the middle power, and all the other varieties in between. Presently there are individual articles for all these types of power, all of them - including that of the Great power. Given this, is it really appropriate to deal with Great powers here rather than on the dedicated page? This article is after all titled Power in international relations - there is no mention of Great powers in the title.

I would suggest that we move the Great power content to the dedicated article and replace it with a discussion about the various types of international power, in the abstract, leaving in-depth discussion to the individual pages of each type of power.

Xdamr 13:08, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Trying to develop of list of Great Powers and Superpowers and Potential Superpowers and Major Powers etc is the problem here. The page has no criteria on which these are determined, leading to endless bickering and revert-warring over who exactly is a power, of what rank, and when. It's all nonsense: political scientists have no fixed criteria for what countries qualify as great powers or regional powers. Superpowers are only known as such when the international system is bipolar (cold war) or unipolar (today). This article would be much better served to stick to the multiple definitions of power in international relations, and explaining the various gradations of power. Lists are going to be pointless--we can all see that their entire practical result is fruitless bickering.—thames 02:25, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Very much agree. All the list has produced is a flurry of counterproductive activity by people who really have no grip on the concepts involved, but who see dates and automatically want more for their own countries and less for the other guys. Case in point: England; to speak of "great powers" in 1169 is just ludicrous. Out with the list; examples of Powers can be given in the article text if they are warranted by the narrative. Albrecht 04:47, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you guys aren't fully aware of the work that has gone into these articles, note the plural. There has not been a debate within our articles on who is a major power, superpower etc. in these articles for a very very very long time. There is criteria and that is presented on the Superpower page. So although I agree the concept sections need to be expanded, I fully diagree with the rest. Nobleeagle (Talk) 07:25, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I echo Nobleeagle here; this article is part of a greater whole of articles on international power. Each interlinks and is to a degree dependent on each other.

By and large there really is no longer any trouble on the other pages as to who belongs where. I certainly will conceed that the Great powers, being a historical concept, give scope for more debate. However I don't think that this negates my proposal, that we should move the Great power discussion onto the Great power page. We can then have these fights on the Great power page and confine this page to a discussion of its ostensible subject matter, 'Power in international relations', making this page something of a portal to the rest of the series. This is something that would be structurally and conceptually neater, I think.

Xdamr 12:57, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Work that serves no purpose does not provide its own justification. The list is amateurish, stylistically atrocious, incorrect in places, and adds nothing to the article but conflict. I have tried at times to straighten it out only to see the nonsense, inevitably, creep back in. We wouldn't be suggesting its removal if it didn't cause serious problems.

Also, you seem to have a strange conception of "very very very long time." Have a peek at the section above. Browse every single entry on this talk page if it'll convince you. Then, take a look at the edit summaries in History and compare the number of edits that added content to the article with the ones that merely tweaked dates on the list. Go back as far as you like. The lists are hopeless. Albrecht 15:25, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't disagree with you that the present list of Great powers leaves much to be desired, nor that it is a honeypot for national self-aggrandisement. The international power articles in general seem to attract more than their fair share of cranks. But I take it we agree that the great power content is best moved to the Great power page?

ps. Not to put words into Nobleeagle's mouth (I hope) but I think that he was saying that the lists of Major powers on the Major power page Superpowers on the Superpower page etc had not been fought over for quite some time.

Xdamr 15:50, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Sure, whatever helps. Albrecht 15:53, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

The Major Power article is absurd. "Major Power" is not a political science term, and not a term used by historians. "Great Power" is a term used by political scientists and historians. All of that content should be moved to the Great Power article, and Major Power should be turned into a redirect. In the meantime, I'm going to move the Great Power material from this article over to Great Power.—thames 20:16, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, who exactly came up with this "power hierarchy" concept? I'm a PhD student in international relations and I've never seen this concept in any text. This smacks of original research.—thames 20:18, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Interesting point, I'd encourage you to bring it up on the Major power page.

Xdamr 23:08, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I actually don't know who came up with the "Major Power" term. It has been there since I started editing these articles as an anon. Nobleeagle (Talk) 00:03, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Superpower Criteria IS Sourced

I finally found where it originated from: here.

Power in international relations template

{{International power}} has been updated so that it looks better, if you have any problems with viewing the template can you just tell me and I'll try and fix it. Nobleeagle (Talk) 06:34, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Current Powers

I've pasted this section in from the Great Power page, it seems more appropriate here than on that page, dealing as it does with other gradations of power than that of the Great power.

Xdamr 17:37, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

History of ALL super powers,

I dunno, I'm pretty sure we've had super powers WAY before WW II and later. Because if the US is a super power today by having the largest cultural influenece, strongest millitary, greatest economy, and etc. Than wouldn't you say civilistations like ancient Egypt, ancient Greece, the Roman Empire, the Spanish Empire, and the British Empire were all once super powers too? They all once had the strongest millitary, economy, and cultural influence in their heydays, but now we see them as nothing more than second powers or some (like Rome) are dissoluted. I'm just saying, super powers can't just be something modern when you look at older civilisations in all the same situation.

Samusfan80 17:51, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

The term superpower was coined in the 1930s and is not used by academics and scholars to describe nations which were powers before that time. You may edit Historical powers or Great power for such countries. Nobleeagle ^[TALK] [C] 23:24, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, only add a nation to the Great power listing if the country was described as such post 1814 - when that term was itself first coined. If you are looking to add Rome, Greece, Ancient Egypt, and similar then Historical powers is almost certainly the page for you.

Xdamr^talk 23:31, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Sources

This article (and, I suspect, most other associated articles), has an absolute dearth of references. It all reeks of original research disguised as common sense. If I really wanted to start splitting hairs, I think I could add {{fact}} tags to the end of every sentences. And for every reference an American can find to show that America is the world's sole hyperpower, I'm sure a European can find a reference to dispute America's power monopoly. I'm afraid there's a foundational problem surrounding this issue, specifically: a lack of hindsight. We're living in the present and so it's hard to say who truly holds power until it changes hands in a historically dramatic fashion. I'm sure the oft-mentioned Romans thought of themselves as a hyperpower in their own time, but would we describe them as such? And truly, has there ever been a case where millions of people living in one region exerted true power over millions of people in a distant region? No, all that has occured has been the innovation of radically different standards of warfare during and since WW2. As these standards proliferate over the next few generations (as standards managed to proliferate in the past, first with bronze, then iron, despite the efforts of the innovating culture to maintain their initial monopoly), national boundaries will continue to be redrawn, and power will continue to shift through various numbers and groups of hands.

What all this means today, to this article: the endless talk about the definition of great powers and superpowers and hyperpowers is senseless. Social power is always concentrated unequally. The areas between the Persian, Roman, Maurya, Hunnic, and Han empires have been perpetually exploited throughout history in the national defense of whatever peoples happened to occupy the aforementioned imperial territory. Is this the kind of power we're talking about here? Xaxafrad 03:12, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

India As A Great Power

I want to start a discussion on why India should be considered as a global power I believe India should be considered for a great power because:

• India is the 4th largest Economy in terms of PPP and the 9th Largest in Nominal Terms.
• India is the 4th most concentration of military power.
• India is leading in Getting a permanent UN SC Seat backed by all five members.
• India is part of G8+6 And BRICS
• India is a very active member of the UN and is one of the leading contributor of troops in peace keeping missions.
• India has a very prominent role solving in global problems such as terrorism
• India has a great global influence in terms of cuisine, films, music, religion etc.

Neilpine (talk) 22:37, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

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Categories

I have a feeling that the regional and middle powers were listed arbitrarily in the "Categories of Power" section. They are all unsourced and I have just reverted someone who added Turkey to the regional powers, because Turkey's categorization as such has become pretty outdated now,[1] considering the recent developments in the region. And even if, most of the relevant sources talk about Turkish "ambitions" or "aspirations" for regional supremacy.[2][3] This doesn't prove anything. I am also having a hard time finding sources referring to Spain as a regional power. Can someone help me out here? Fitzcarmalan (talk) 09:46, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

I most certainly agree. Considering the article gives no source for the countries listed in the regional and middle powers sections, id consider removing them as per WP:RS. However this may cause trouble, as it wont go down well with the petty nationalism among some editors. Antiochus the Great (talk) 11:00, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Antiochus the Great, I've initiated a discussion on the WP:OR/N regarding this issue and other similar ones, if you're interested. Regards, Fitzcarmalan (talk) 08:01, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

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Spain

I decided to remove Spain, the citations for Spain were listed in Spanish language , Spanish media talk only of an influence in latin america (Not Globally) and only for the language, I personally do not consider Spain as a Global cultural power , I could mention France, China or India so far more important than Spain.--LuigiPortaro29 16:14, 18 November 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by LuigiPortaro29 (talk • contribs)

None of the sources provided for Spain are actually referring to it as a "Cultural superpower", at best they consider Spain to have a dominant position when it comes to cultural influence in the Hispanic world. But a cultural superpower no. I have removed Spain twice now for this reason. Antiochus the Great (talk) 18:01, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Even ignoring the sources; Do you know something about Pablo Picasso? Or maybe about Miguel de Cervantes? Salvador Dalí? Or maybe about Felipe II? Or maybe about Francisco de Goya? Or El Greco ? Or maybe about the Spanish language ? Or the Spanish culture ? I see that not, that your edition on the page Power (international relations) is based on reality evasion and a kind of hatred.

Do you know about the Voyages of Christopher Columbus, which resulted in the discovery of the Americas in 1492? Spain is not a global cultural power, Luigi? Don't speak laughable things. --TechnicianGB (talk) 22:21, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

I have looked through the sources provided for Spain, and none describe it as a "cultural superpower". Antiochus the Great (talk) 22:43, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

They describe Spain as a main cultural reference, a main cultural influencer and the founder of the Spanish heritage. Plus all of the Spanish culture or artists, painters... make Spain a cultural superpower. That's what the sources say, they not say specifically "cultural superpower" because that's a very unspecific term, mostly used on Wikipedia (do a fast Google search and see it by yourself) and from British articles, as "cultural superpower" means huge influence on culture, and that's what it says the source from the USD from San Diego, California. The Hispanic heritage is noted on all continents, due to spanish ex-colonies. Denying this is like denying that the earth is round. The sources say that, as the source from the University of San Diego. Anyways, keep doing whatever you want. You'll be warned to a librarian and soon you will be contacted by one librarian for your disruptive/untrustful editions. Regards --TechnicianGB (talk) 23:02, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

@Antiochus the Great: it is also funny that you mentione on your edition https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Power_(international_relations)&oldid=751317267 (your 3rd edition on 24th of November) that the cultural superpowers is in reference to a nations Soft power capabilities, while Spain is listed within the 10th first Soft power countries in the world which clearly states "from Seville to Brussels", and here you have another point of view positioning Spain as an obvious soft power country, one from the hundreds available just doing a quick Google search, the source is the reputated Time newspaper.. --TechnicianGB (talk) 23:15, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Hello TechnicianGB. All I want to see is one or two reliable citations that reasonably describe/conclude/assert that Spain is a "cultural superpower". As of yet, you have not done so. Instead, you have merely drawn your own conclusions from the citations you provided, and unfortunately, that is considered "original research" and against Wikipedia policy. I would love to see Spain included in the article if we find the appropriate sources, so I do not appreciate you saying that I have some kind of hate for Spain. It is nearly midnight here, so I can discuss this further tomorrow if you want and i'll have some time to try and dig up a few good sources for Spain. If not, it may be best to take this matter to dispute resolution, or omit Spain from the article if reliable sources calling Spain a cultural superpower cannot be found. Thanks! Antiochus the Great (talk) 23:45, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Again I say that cultural superpower is an unspecific term mostly found on Wikipedia and British articles, not an used term. The Hispanic heritage is noted on all continents, due to spanish ex-colonies, as mostly of Latin America has Spanish colonial architecture. Huge influences are also found on Morocco, Western Sahara, Equatorial Guinea. and Philippines. cultural superpower means huge influence on culture. and that's exactly what says the source from the University of San Diego. You also linked the relation to the Soft power capacities and Spain is inside the top 10 of world's soft powers, as you can see I've posted many references in my previous editions. I don't understand why at this point you keep denying this. It's not original research... I've posted many different sources... --TechnicianGB (talk) 23:56, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

That is a really good point you make, and I hadn't really considered it before. I have to agree with you, that the term cultural superpower is a little vague and not widely used outside of Anglo=Saxon or English language academics and literature. Thank you for taking the time to discuss the matter on this talk page, and thank you for your clear and well reasoned explanation with supporting citations! Happy editing! Antiochus the Great (talk) 15:46, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

I'm glad to see that we arrived to a consensus. Have a great day! --TechnicianGB (talk) 20:56, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

With all due respect, you have to be extremely ignorant to not consider Spain as a cultural superpower. Spain has an enormous historical heritage and has directly influenced a good part of the world due to its immense colonial empire, now called Hispanidad. Spain also has a very extensive global language throughout the world (the second most spoken native language in fact), and it is one of the few official languages ​​of the UN. Spain is the second most visited country in the world, only slightly surpassed by France, and it is a country whose national history is necessary to understand the history and development of the Western World, particularly Western Europe and the Americas.

I obviously agree with the others and their consensus. Venezia Friulano (talk) 13:22, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

References

Power as resources most often used by geopoliticians and the military

This is the approach of Kenneth Waltz (Waltz, Theory of International Politics, p. 131; Waltz, 'The Emerging Structure of International Politics,' International Security, Vol. 18, No. 2, p. 50), John Mearsheimer (Mearsheimer, The Tragedy of Great Power Politics, pp. 12, 43, 55, 57, and 61-62), and Richard Haass ('The Age of Nonpolarity: What Will Follow U.S. Dominance,' Foreign Affairs, Vol. 87, No. 3, p. 45), among others. Are they 'the military'? Certainly not. Geopoliticians? Don't think so (or then everyone is). Brenda James (talk) 22:27, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

the image of Powers in international relations .

Map reflecting the categories of power in international relations.

Well, that " new imagine" is old it is irrelevant a Document of canada of the 1998-1999, However I wish to see in what Part of the Statement of the Publication there a Map, Because there's no Maps in that "Old" publication. so I think that someone have Made that Map from his own Computer since in the publication of Chapnick Adam "The Middle Power" theres no maps and IMPORTANT thing , the Publication doesn't talk about Italy, Germany, Japan and India, talk only about Canadian affairs as a middle Power!. Today theres Documents, Journals , Publications of Ben W. Heineman, Jr., Fritz Heimann, Milena Sterio and even Obama that Talk about Italy as great power or a great Player, as well Zbigniew Brzezinski talks about India as a Global Power. So I though that the Map is a fake and is Better to delete it , since the Publication of "The Middle Power" of Chapnick Adam doesn't talk about a "global order", them talk ONLY about Canadian foreign policy in comparision with the countries of the P5 . so please, Before to make a Publication with a Map it is better to read and make a Control in the Publication. LuigiPortaro29 (talk)16:22, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

In that map Spain,Australia,Canada,Turkey and many others are not well ranked.Spain is neither considered a major regional power.They are even considered at the same level of Italy and India.Not necessarily every article must have maps or similar things to be complete.There's an excess of them.It was fantasy that map made by a sockpuppet as reported below it.89.97.225.68 (talk) 16:31, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

The map seems like a useful visual aid for our readers. I'm not seeing any immediate outstanding issues. Feel free to list any, concisely, in order. El_C 23:44, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Well, would be constructive to have more users here into this topic for an agreement for a New map that Reflect the Great Players of the World in this time, I will add the P5 (USA, Russia, China, France and UK) as well the Members of NATO QUINT+ Founders of the G7( USA, France, UK, Germany, Italy and Japan) already Ben W. Heineman, Jr., Fritz Heimann, Milena Sterio and also Obama have talk about them as great Players of the world, also I would Put India since Dr. Zbigniew Brzezinski talk about India as Great Power, already all of them with the exception of Japan have Nuclear or Sharing Programs, all of them are the eight largest economies of the world by GDP nominal ,as well all of them (with the exeption of Russia and India) , are the countries with more Net worth and Financial wealth of the world.

as well all of them have the largest Veto Power of IMF. as well them ( with the exeption of India) are the largest contributors of the UN Budget. , it is very debatable if Brazil is a great Power but in my personal opinion Brazil is so far to be considered a great Power. Brazil lacks of a Strong Voice in Global decisions. There other aspects to talk as for Global Power : Navigation Systems or Arms control,as well the countries ,who profit the most from the War economy, etc, the discussion can be very constructive. LuigiPortaro29 (talk)00:30, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

The map gives us the basics. Regional power lists in its own more detailed map "Major Regional Powers in South Asia (India and Pakistan)." The fact is that it can be both, because there's certainly the argument to be made that India is an emerging major power. But I remind you that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and as such naturally cautious. El_C 01:38, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

it is difficult to say which countries are great Powers and which others are middle powers and go so on, Japan is certainly an economic power for GDP and National Wealth but a middle power in Global affairs Rusia have a small economy and a tiny National wealth But they have the "nuclear" Power diplomacy Russia is great in the Gold reserves. India Have a large Population with a large military "size" but still have a role of middle power in global affairs, but India play an important role in the International Monetary Fund, so there no an agreement about how is really a great power or a middle power here.LuigiPortaro29 (talk) 08:06, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps a more agreeable (although admittedly, still very subjective) criteria for the classification of 'power status' would be to consider a state's position within, ability and willingness to influence world ordering. We could talk all day about individual statistics that could qualify any number of nations as great powers, but in my humble (and Wikipedia inexperienced) opinion, the focus should be squarely on: What is country X capable of? and What is country X willing to do?. In the example of India, they are probably capable of becoming a great power based on material factors but their actions sit squarely in the middle power basket of multilateralism, niche diplomacy, and liberal IR. I feel this is important because it is very easy to inflate the importance of states to the extent that the classification of power status is superfluous. Thoughts? BlurryOne (talk) 01:58, 10 January 2019 (UTC)