Talk:Pottok

Pronounciation

The Basque pronounciation would be poh-tohk with a palatalized t. Even poh-chohk. Is the -ee- a French pronounciation? --Error 00:39, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Done. Akerbeltz (talk) 13:34, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Meaning

Does it really mean "small horse"? -tt- is often a mark of a diminutive. But the usual word for horse is zaldi, not *potoka. --Error 00:39, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

It's a race name. Small horse should be zalditxo or zaldisko. --Sugaar 17:03, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Changed also. Akerbeltz (talk) 13:34, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

pottoks in the pictures

I am from San Sebastian and I've seen pottoks various times, the last time some two months ago in the Artikutza park (near Aiako Harria and La Rhune) and frankly, I do not think these horses in the pictures are pottoks at all. Some times any little horse or ponny is called pottok in this area, as the very word pottoka conjures up a cute and chubby animal (or baby) in Basque. Genuine pottoks have an oversized belly almost to the ground and very short legs. Iñaki LL (talk) 21:16, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

We are stuck with what's in wikipedia and wikimedia commons, and given that I have never seen the breed myself, feel free to find better free images and replace them. Or, if you can find some links to an official web site with non-free images with which to compare, I can take a look at the basic characteristics and do a comparison. (Heavens knows this would not be the first mislabeled photo in wikipedia, the number or gray horse photos called "white" horses is just scary...) Montanabw^(talk) 18:29, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay, some genuine instances can be found in the following webs: http://blog.eitb.com/eguraldiblog/2007/10/17/pottokak-1/ and http://images.google.es/imgres?imgurl=http://www.euskonews.com/0244zbk/argazkiak/gaia24404_06.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.euskonews.com/0244zbk/gaia24404eu.html&h=286&w=360&sz=22&hl=es&start=4&um=1&tbnid=nml5EekJzxbAZM:&tbnh=96&tbnw=121&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpottokak%26um%3D1%26hl%3Des%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3D75z%26sa%3DN

(third picture from top). I hope it helps to get the picture Iñaki LL (talk) 19:48, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

If you want to verify that they are free images (often they are not) and if so, upload them to wikimedia commons, that would be terrific. Shoot us a heads up with the image title if you do! Montanabw^(talk) 04:28, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I think we have two different breeds that are being confused here. I'm trying to get behind the Basque Pony article (since I started the Basque breeds and cultivars page) and by looking at the bona fide images (the ones at Euskonews for example) I suspect there is the actual Pottoka (anyone for moving Pottok to Pottoka by the way?) and then a Pinto like horse which is probably common throughout the Pyreness but not a Pottoka. Akerbeltz (talk) 13:34, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Ok, getting somewhere, the ZAPE society has a very good site ([1]) listing characteristics. Amongst them are: black or dark chesnut colour, shaggier coat in winter, short ears. I think simply on the colour the two pics don't fit. I'll swap them for a ZAPE pic that's on commons for now. Akerbeltz (talk) 13:41, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Me again... just red through the bumf of the French stud book. There are two preliminary studbooks (on the French side) one for the pure mountain breed and one for CROSS BREEDS (see also [2]), which can have anything up to 50% non-Pottok blood. So the non-dark ones which seem too tall to be a pottok are most likely cross breeds that are traded and bred under the same name (annoyingly). I'll try to amend the article this week but someone better look it over, I'm not a horse person per se. Akerbeltz (talk) 13:49, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Good research! As for "Pottoka," we have traditionally used the English language version of a breed name, here, "Pottok," though usually list alternative names in the infobox and sometimes the lede. (And create appropriate redirects so both can be found) Feel free to edit away and if I see a glaring equestrian error in your work, I'll tweak it. Before you start, though take a look at the horse breeds task force guidelines (link in the WPEQ box above) for the format we are looking for. Some similar GA quality articles you may want to compare to include another Spanish horse, the Sorraia. We also have the Spanish Andalusian horse that either went GA or is on its way there. Neither Pottok (with any spelling) nor Basque pony show up at the fairly decent International Museum of the Horse site, But Pottok (spelled "Pottok") does have a page at http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/horses/ , which I have commented on more extensively over at the Basque pony page. (The Okie state site is not a strong source, it's verifiable and a university, but their research is spotty, often repeats breed propaganda verbatim, and for the Pottok, they have a pinto on their page...). As I noted at the Basque pony article, I suggest you put up a merge tag and see if anyone else has heartburn over this. Montanabw^(talk) 20:19, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Responded on the other page but ty :) One thing though - I know about the Use English rule, I just can't find much in the way of evidence that suggests either spelling being dominant in English. A quick search on Google Scholar gives marginally more results for Pottok but we're talking less than 200 in both cases. But if you say that Pottok is more commonly used among horse folk in English, then I'll take your word for it. Akerbeltz (talk) 20:52, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Probably best to keep "Pottok" for now. Montanabw^(talk) 00:28, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Merger

A clear no. I haven't had a chance to do that page yet but the Basque Mountain Horse and the Pottok are not seen as the same breed. Akerbeltz (talk) 14:58, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Ha-ha, we posted at the same time! Are you able to help with my questions below? I'd like to include the Euskara names for the other two breeds in the stubs I have made for them if my guesses are correct. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 15:04, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Caballo de Monte del País Vasco

There's a merge tag to here on the Basque Mountain Horse, or Caballo de Monte del País Vasco. Since they are totally different breeds, discussed as such in this article and recognised as such by the government of Spain (see for example the breed information for both on the website of the Ministero de Medio Ambiente y Medio Rural y Marino) it's not a topic that seems to need much discussion, but, well, um, that's what I think about it.

Can anyone help me identify the other two of the four Basque breeds mentioned in this article, the Aurikzo and Navarrese horse? Is Aurikzo the Euskara name for the Burguete, for example, as the picture lower right at this page, which unfortunately I can't read, appears to show? And is the 'Navarrese horse' mentioned in this article the same as the Jaca Navarra, apparently shown in the lower left picture? I'd like to fix the red links in the article if I can. Many thanks, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 14:59, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Great - as I'm not a very horsy person ;) I did a bit of digging, and yes, Aurizko zaldia = Burguete, and Nafarroako zaldikoa = Jaca Navarra. I found a bilingual pdf by the Government of Navarre on rural development that states that. Document here [3] (you might be able to handle the Spanish half) Give me a shout if you're stuck for refs on either, I'm much better at adding to that writing from scratch. Akerbeltz (talk) 15:07, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I've added the Basque names, interwiki links and I've added them to Basque breeds and cultivars to avoid orphan tags. Akerbeltz (talk) 15:19, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

All I ask is please, please, please use the English translations for these breeds... otherwise people who turn to wikipedia for breed articles that expand on the cheesy and often inaccurate "breed encyclopedia" articles won't be able to find them!!! Montanabw^(talk) 21:47, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

If there are English names... I'm not sure Navarrese horse would pass NOR but I've done the second best thing and created redirects for the alternative names, so Navarrese horse redirects to Jaca Navarra. That should do the trick. Akerbeltz (talk) 17:28, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

There is clear wikipedia policy on this: WP:ENGLISH, WP:NOENG, MOS:FOREIGN, and Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(lead_section)#Non-english_titles. In short, if "Jaca Navarra" would most appropriately translate "Navarrese horse," then we need to do that unless there is some evidence (such as a breed registry in the English-speaking world) that a breed name is used in its foreign form even by English speakers. Montanabw^(talk) 19:59, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, that's no problem then. Here is what you want (page 570, to save you looking). It would really be so much more valuable if you would go and edit any one of the hundreds of equine articles that REALLY BADLY NEED IT, such as the total disaster area that is Equestrianism, to cite but one, rather than interfering here where you clearly have no expertise, and where to our great good fortune there is someone who clearly does (and I don't mean me). Or is this yet another attempt to prevent someone who wants to help from making further contributions?
Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 20:18, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

That's a neat source. Do you know what the full title is? And I think Montanabw was just trying to raise a question - if there was an established English name, then it would certainly have made sense to go for that but with "240 and decreasing", that's doubtful and "jaca" doesn't translate as "horse" - at least not in a straightforward way so for now, Jaca Navarra it is. Akerbeltz (talk) 21:19, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I like it, have only just found it while looking for something else, I'm looking forward to reading it in some detail. The FAO site is not exactly transparent, so I don't know what it is "Part 2" of, please say if you find out. It is not the latest data, I think, there are lists published in 2007 which I believe to be more recent. The CM list is here, I'm still looking for 2 of the others (D, DM). So many more horse breeds are in danger than not, I want to get their conservation status to show on every page. Might take a while... Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:51, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

1. Thank you Akerbeltz. With evidence from a suitable English language source that lists no alternative names, I am fine with "Jaca Navarra." That said, I will note that the FAO source, just as an example, uses Lipicanac, Lipicanska Rasa, Lipizzan, Lipizzaner, and Lipizzanerhäst, all with separate entries, for the same breed in different nations, so while it is probably authoritative for the name used in a given nation, it is of only some help in determining an English version. Oh, but seeing as how Google tells me that "Jaca" literally translates as "nag," you may want to rethink the use of the literal Spanish for this one, but I shall say no more for now ... LOL! Montanabw^(talk) 22:05, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

2. JLAN, save the personal attacks. AGF and all. That said, your notion of flagging conservation status is a GOOD idea! You may want to see the work others have done at Equus Survival Trust (UK) and American Livestock Breeds Conservancy to find more sources. Montanabw^(talk) 22:05, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

You're welcome ;) I think it's the World watch list for domestic animal diversity [4] - the cover looks very similar. Akerbeltz (talk) 22:28, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Brilliant, thank you very much, that is seriously useful. It is indeed that, the 3rd edition of it; "Part 2" starts at about page 54. The ftp download link is this.

On the word 'jaca', which is the only non-diminutive word for a small horse that I have heard in a European language, I am wondering if it is not cognate with English 'jack', as in jackass, Mammoth Jack and indeed jackrabbit. So is 'zaldikoa' a diminutive of 'zaldia'?
Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 08:53, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Your're welcome! Yes, zaldi is a horse, ko is one of the many diminuitive forms that you get in Basque.

And thank you for cheering me up - your question about jaca made me look it up in the DDLLE [5] - believe it or not but it's derived from Hackney!! Akerbeltz (talk) 10:32, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Oh, nice! so cognate with 'hack' rather than 'jack'. Now if I had the OED I could look up jack...
Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 10:52, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

The OED says that when referring to animals, jack is derived from the name Jack to denote the male of the species, so jackass originally is just a he-ass. Akerbeltz (talk) 10:59, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for that, another theory punctured. Still on names, are you by any chance able to tell me if the names Breton Sardanés and Breto Cerda, as seen for example here (and presumably Spanish & Catalan versions of the same thing?), refer to the Hispano-Breton, or to that horse in that part of Catalonia only, or to a variant or subspecies, or indeed to a totally different animal? Or is that outside your field of expertise and/or interest? The Breto Cerda is on that FAO list, but there's no description. It would be most useful to know.
Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 16:39, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

I LOVE the OED...I don't love the cost of access! =:-O FYI, for those who care, we have hack (horse), Hackney horse and Hackney pony, none of which is probably relevant here. I wonder why Google language (other than it being a poor mechanical translator) gave the translation "nag?" That said, there are some contexts where "hack" is sometimes used in a perjorative sense to denote an animal of average-to-poor quality, but I have not been able to source that when I was working on the article, hence it got tossed as unverifiable... Montanabw^(talk) 19:19, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

I have a printed OED with just the etymological bits :) The word hack > haque >haca > jaca is bound to have undergone semantic (i.e. meaning) change over the centuries and passing through that many countries. English deer and german tier "animal" share the same root but not the same meaning anymore. Akerbeltz (talk) 22:07, 7 April 2011 (UTC)