Talk:Posthuman

Deletion of promotional material about the Journal of Posthuman Studies

I have deleted this text from the first paragraph, but suspect it will reappear, so would like to have other documented opinions on whether or not it is OK on a page like this.

In 2017, Penn State University Press in cooperation with Stefan Lorenz Sorgner and James Hughes (sociologist) established the "Journal of Posthuman Studies"[3] in which all aspects of the concept "posthuman" can be analysed.[4]

It does not make sense in an introduction of a field, and reads as promotional - especially since it was added by the user [Pjktsa] who has made very few edits in the Wikipedia, and almost all their edits have been promoting Stefan Lorenz Sorgner, one of the co-editors of this journal. A similar promotion of the journal was added by Pjktsa [in this revision] in 2017 and promptly undone. Pjktsa has also added an almost identical promotion of the journal to the entry on Posthumanist. I [undid that as well]. (Lijil (talk) 10:06, 7 November 2019 (UTC))

What is a Posthuman

Uh, not sure why someone reverted this section back to: "The difference between the posthuman and other hypothetical sophisticated non-humans is that a posthuman was once a human, either in its lifetime or in the lifetimes of some or all of its direct ancestors. As such, a prerequisite for a posthuman is a transhuman, the point at which the human being begins surpassing his or her own limitations, but is still recognizable as a human person or similar.[6] In this sense, the transition between human and posthuman may be viewed as a continuum rather than an all-or-nothing event."

The very same Bostrom paper from which a quote in the preceding paragraph comes clearly states that, by definition, a posthuman need not have been related to a human. The quote is, from the Transhumanist FAQ: "Posthumans could be completely synthetic artificial intelligences, or they could be enhanced uploads."

Look, if you're going to keep the previous quote from Bostrom, then you have to put this one in too. After all, they are from the same paper. Please revert back to my modified version, which accurately states that, by agreed-upon definition, posthumans can be nonhuman entities.67.159.64.106 (talk) 19:06, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

About the See also / Related pages section

According to a Wikipedia rule of thumb: 1) if something is in See also, try to incorporate it into the main body of the article 2) if something is in the main body, it should not be in See also and therefore 3) good articles have no See also sections. --Loremaster 17:54, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Do you have a link for this rule? 125.236.161.132 (talk) 23:45, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

No, I don't have a link. It is something that a few Wikipedia administrators have told me. That's why it's called a “rule of thumb”. --Loremaster (talk) 00:20, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure the "no see also sections" thing you've heard is correct. There is an official guideline on such sections, and there are several featured articles with "See also" sections. --Explodicle (talk) 12:59, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

"See also" are a list, lists are worse then text. Wiki is not paper, we should have room to discuss all related issues, and "See also", which rarely discuss the linked items, give little indication why they are relevant. --Loremaster (talk) 17:53, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

You are right, elaboration is preferable. However, this does not mean an article cannot still be good. --Explodicle (talk) 19:44, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I never argued the opposite. --Loremaster (talk) 03:10, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

What were you arguing when you said "good articles have no See also sections"? --Explodicle (talk) 17:12, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

If you prohibit "see also", then you may find that wikipedia presents similar information in several articles. It then becomes more and more difficult to keep those articles describing similar information consistent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.225.89.251 (talk) 05:40, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

What Posthuman Isn't

"Posthuman" does not denote just anything that happens to come after the human era, nor does it have anything to do with the "posthumous". In particular, it does not imply that there are no humans anymore. A posthumanist, on the other hand, is simply someone who advocates posthumanism.

This sentence keeps being removed by Karl Bunker I have and will continue readding it because I think it is useful information to counter the confusion many people have regarding the terms 'posthuman', 'poshumanist' and 'posthumanism'. --Loremaster 16:47, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about that. The second time I remove it, it was because we were editing at the same time, and the easiest way to resolve the conflict was to stomp on your edit, and frankly, I was hoping you wouldn't notice. However, I don't think there's much merit in keeping two of these three clarifications. Anyone who isn't clear that "posthumous" is a different word from "posthuman" simply doesn't know how to read, and this isn't supposed to be a reading instruction manual. And the fact that "posthuman" in this context doesn't refer to "what comes after humans are extinct" is completely obvious from the article. OTOH, I do think there should be a note that clarifies that "posthumanism" doesn't relate to "posthuman" as it's used in this article.

So I propose that the following be removed:

"Posthuman" does not denote just anything that happens to come after the human era, nor does it have anything to do with the "posthumous". In particular, it does not imply that there are no humans anymore.

and the sentence that comes after that be changed to:

"Posthuman" should not be confused with "posthumanism," which is a European philosophical extension of humanism.

My apologies again for stomping on your edit. KarlBunker 17:15, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Although I disagree with your argument since many Wikipedia often provide instructional manual-like information to both help and inform readers, I will rephrase the first sentence rather then removing it. --Loremaster 17:29, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to rewrite a sentence, which is currently:

It is a common error for social commentators to use "posthuman" to denote just anything that happens to come after the human era or imply that there will be no humans anymore.

I think saying that this is a "common error" is questionable, since it's perfectly valid to use "post-human" to refer to a future where humans are extinct, and leaving out the hyphen doesn't necessarily constitute an error. Furthermore, "just anything that happens to come after the human era or imply that there will be no humans anymore" is awkward and unclear writing.

I agree. This wasn't my writing. I was simply working with the content already on this page. However, I deleted the line The term "post-human" would be more correct for this because I don't think this distinction is tenable or accurate. --Loremaster 21:05, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

'"Posthuman" should not be confused with "posthumanism," which is a European philosophical extension of humanism.'

On Posthumanism

Posthumanism should better not be characterised as an "extension" of humanism. Posthumanism is explicitly antihumanist. Moreover, in Europe the philosophical (postmodernist) posthumanism paved the way for the engineer's posthumanism of the Moravecs, Minskys etc.: Posthumanist philosophers and authors belonged to the first people in Europe who made references to Moravec etc. and included texts by the posthumanist engineers in their publications. One central common feature of both posthumanisms is the idea that machines (including machine intelligences) will become ever more important "actors", and that for this reason the centrality of the human being (as in classical humanism) is an old-fashioned idea. I think it would be better to delete the sentence or to extend the article. (I'm afraid my English is not good enough for doing this myself.)

I think it would be more useful to have place your comments on the Talk:Posthumanism page. --Loremaster 13:49, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it would also be useful to incorporate this distinction into the lede of this article and the article on posthumanism, to distinguish them explicitly. The use of the word "posthumanism" in the opening paragraph is confusing. Richardson mcphillips (talk) 15:45, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Non-Local Memory!

The memory (stored data) ISN'T local, but NON-LOCAL. That is simply a fact ! How can any real futurist think that the brain is some 'hard drive' (?), when it is a sort of 'antenna' (plus 'processor' of information, but stored elsewhere)... so that depiction of brain as a 'STORAGE' on this picture is simply erroneous and even ridiculous)... Refer to work of Rupert Sheldrake, and the theory of morphic fields. Even in Vedas, 5000 yrs ago, were mentioned 'Akashic Records' (actually morphic fields of an individuals' past) as something non-local (to brain), being a sort of cosmic 'library'. Also, many other scientists are aware of the NON-LOCAL nature of memories, eg. Nikola Tesla, who gave the AC electricity to the world(and opened the doors to 'modern age') knew a whole century ago, that brain is just a sort of antenna to somewhere else where these data are actually stored. Plus, if there was any physical traces of data IN the brain, it would have been already detected with some nano-hi-tech equipment, but of course weren't since data are simply NOT IN THE BRAIN. greetings

What does rant have to do with the article on posthuman? Please see the new message at the top of this page. --Loremaster 23:16, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

The only thing really relevant is that the whole subject is based on something essentially ERRONEOUS (and not if the message is properly signed or not). Saying the memory is something local and 'material' is simply a falsification of the facts! That is the only thing that matters, the FACTS. And memory is NON-LOCAL. It is not a 'ranting', but presenting the facts... 64.187.60.69 20:57, 12 July 2006 (UTC) Greetings

Putting aside the fact that your views regarding memory are pseudo-scientific and not widely held by members of the scientific community or the public at large, where exactly in the Posthuman article does it state that memory is something local and material? --Loremaster 21:04, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Look at the Primo_Posthuman picture, and you'll see the brain depicted as Data memory STORAGE (!?) system! Absolutely wrong and even ridiculous... Data are NOT stored in the brain. Brain is a 'processor' and an 'antenna', but NOT a 'storage'. Of course the greedy capitalistic demons will try to maintain that erroneous idea of brain-as-a-storage, since the idea of sharing (the experience-memories) is so alien to them. Not only personal memory-experience is non-local (stored in some 'fields'/'hyperplanes'/'records_in_UNIVERSAL_database') but all the cosmic experience (including personal). And not only mental, but all the organic experience as well. Genes are only 'keys' to unlock some information from this (non-local) database (fields/hyperplanes), ie. non-locally stored. Genes are NOT information themselves. 64.187.60.69 00:30, 13 July 2006 (UTC) greetings

Please read the Pseudoscience article. --Loremaster 13:58, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

The thing is that this view of 'memories-IN-the-brain' is what is pseudo! Science DIDN'T find any physical traces of memories IN the brain and will never find them, so how can a view that is based on memories being STORED IN the brain be non-pseudo, and something that doesn't contradict the reality (since reality is that they are NOT found IN the brain) be 'pseudo'... 64.187.60.69 17:36, 13 July 2006 (UTC) greetings

This talk page is not the place to debate the merits or flaws of your views on memory. Please stop it or you will be reported to an administrator. --Loremaster 18:48, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I know it's months later but I couldn't help commenting... even if the pseudo scientific view that memories are stored out side the brain somewhere was correct... which it clearly is not... then the poster would still be missing the point ... the picture shows an arrow pointing out additional nanotech storage, like a hard drive in the head, not the natural storage that any human would have. Kiffer.geo 23:41, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Good point. --Loremaster 11:45, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

References

Why don't the references in the Posthuman article produce footnotes on the page?

Sorry, still kind of new at this. --BartlebyScrivener 17:36, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I've taken care of it. --Loremaster 17:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! BartlebyScrivener 22:27, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Critical Posthuman Conceptions

Loremaster, I encountered you on the posthumanism page and again on here. I just want to point out that "posthuman", as thought of by "posthumanists" like N. Katherine Hayles, is not exactly like what is described in this article and is directly opposed to humanist practices of life, which as I understand are still relied on by transhumanists (at least to some degree). I would propose some sort of separation, but I can't add content right at this moment, so I'm just throwing the idea out there for now. Hopefully, I'll be able to write something more substantive soon, but I wanted to engage in the discussion and see if this is perhaps the right place for this distinction to be made. I think it is, as there is no posthuman (critical) entry. --AdamFJohnson 00:48, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Adam, I am aware of the fact that the concept of "posthuman" for thinkers like N. Katherine Hayles is not similar to the one discussed in this article. No one has suggested that it is. Therefore, I think it might best that you contribute to the Posthuman (critical theory) article when you find the time. --Loremaster 06:19, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Posthuman still mammal or at least based on DNA?

What I miss in the article is a clarification whether the term "posthuman" as applied to a being still requires that the being is a biological one, meaning either still being a mammal or at least still having DNA encoding of the design of its body as its basis. Could someone knowledgable please add detail on that? --Dan Polansky 15:11, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

A posthuman does not even have to be a physical entity. It can be a process hosted by a computer. It follows from that [1] and [2]. --Dan Polansky 15:38, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Relevance of the smoothness of the transition

I do not see the significance of the statement that posthuman was once a human, or at least one of his ancestors was. Imagine I have a triangle that I smoothly morph into a square. Would the resulting square qualify as a "post-triangle" only because it was created through a smooth transition? Or in a similar vein, is a human actually a post-ape, post-mouse, post-frog, post-dolphin or even post-amoeba or post-bacteria? --Dan Polansky 15:45, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

"Post" means both "after" but also has connotations toward "re-writing,""re-thinking,""re-tooling," etc. At least for Posthuman (critical theory) the transitional nature of the posthuman is what is important. Your point is interesting in this context.--AdamFJohnson 19:54, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

HG Wells form of future human evolution

Just a note that this might be a good add into the article: Human species 'may split in two'

It's a theory put out by a London School of Economics scholar so it's a legitimate postulate as to human evolution. -- Permafrost 05:18, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I am wary of giving undue weight to the science-fictional speculation of only one scholar. However, I wouldn't be opposed to the inclusion of several different points of view. --Loremaster 13:02, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Moved page

I have moved the page to Posthuman, since this is by far the most common use of the word. --Explodicle (talk) 17:27, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

In future, please use the "move" button rather than cutting and pasting the article contents - moving the page you did removes the article history. See WP:MOVE. I have fixed this one. Neıl ☎ 10:33, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I tried that first, but it didn't work, I guess because there was already an article by that title. If I ever run into the problem again, I'll let you know. --Explodicle (talk) 13:35, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Primo

This image was originally part of this article, but was later removed, I think. The image itself has been released into the public domain and it pretty well describes what Posthuman is all about. But after I added it, there's an "uncertain" status blurb. I think it should be kept since the license now makes it a free image. Anyone object? 67.189.129.67 (talk) 23:10, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't have an objection to this image being used but its status must be resolved otherwise it will have to be removed. --Loremaster (talk) 23:26, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Of course, but the image page has a public domain tag. I thought this meant the author has released the image into the public domain and it can be used. Is the image page incorrect? Is the image not in the public domain? 67.189.129.67 (talk) 23:58, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Radical improvement

I'm currently working to radically improve the Posthuman article by merging it with content from the Posthumanism article's Posthuman section. --Loremaster (talk) 02:23, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

rem Pinker quote

I removed it because, tho replacing neurons with silicon-based computation is one kind of technology that could lead to a posthuman, this example explicitly leaves cognition/behavior unchanged. This is not posthuman; or if you think a substrate change is enough, that case needs to be made. As it stood, the quote contradicted the preceding sentence which spoke of "surpassing [...] limitations". Pinker is making points about identity and the computational basis of the self in humans, not trans/post-humanity. "alyosha" (talk) 15:57, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I support your removal of the quote. --Loremaster (talk) 18:33, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Posthuman as the nature of human

Well, this article certainly lacks some aesthetical viewpoints like Mario Perniola's "Sex Appeal Of The Inorganic", a very deep thinking on the subject. And some communication theorists like Marshall McLuhan and Derrick de Kerckhove.

And it would be very nice to have a section to show how the posthuman is being treated by the fiction in general, from Blade Runner to Ghost In The Shell, all of David Cronenberg's films, Philip K. Dick, William Gibson and cyberpunk, etc. 201.85.51.226 (talk) 20:52, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

If you have found reliable sources that explicitly mention how the posthuman is treated in these works, I encourage you to create a unser account and expand this article. However, be careful not to engage in original research. --Loremaster (talk) 22:18, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Types of PostHuman

This article is concerned with the definition of PostHuman... ...But should it also mention types of PostHuman ??

For example, it touches on uploaded human consciousness, but how about the fact that an uploaded human consciousness is not much different from an artificial intelligence - so if there's little difference, is there a difference at all ??

Also, comics often talk about posthumans in the form of people who are the next step in Humanity by virtue of their natural ability

Also, should this article make more mention of Cyberpunk, as a stepping stone from NowHumans to FutureHumans ??

82.16.19.50 (talk) 17:08, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

You may be right but we need reliable sources that discuss the issues you've raised otherwise we would be adding original research in the article which is frowned upon. --Loremaster (talk) 20:46, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

What is this article doing in an encyclopedia

7 references? Come on, this isn't an encyclopedia article. I suggest it's quarantined on the talk page until it meets basic standards re. verifiability and not containing original research.96.44.178.202 (talk) 13:24, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

I would object to a quarantine. Let's just work on improving it where it is. --Loremaster (talk) 18:47, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

New image disputed

I've reverted User:Ewigekrieg's addition of a new image of an artist's conception of a posthuman [3]. Putting aside the fact that I don't know why anyone who desires to become posthuman would want to look like that creature, both the artist (Joana Coccarelli) and the image (Zodiac posthuman) are unnotable.

It makes far more sense to (re-)add the Primo Posthuman 3M+ image created by Natasha Vita-More, the first and most well-known transhumanist artist. (File:Trans-post-human2.jpg was deleted on 15 November 2007 for a reason that is no longer known)‎ --Loremaster (talk) 17:23, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Agree with Loremaster. Image that was added was borderline silly, IMO. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 17:43, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Posthuman god

I found this section confusing, especially the equivocation of "plane of existence" with "parallel universe" and further equivocation of "parallel universe" with "supernatural realm". At the very least some clarification is needed here.

What is an example of a scifi that claims posthumans will create/discover a supernatural realm?

I think it would be adequate just to make this section a discussion of Shermer's last law.

The aspect of creating schizophrenic, multiple personalities needs to be addressed as WIKI published the phenomenon of up-or downloading other identities.

I have had major problems with some of Wikipedia's articles about post and transhumans as the lawfulness of the experiments that enabled the inputs and feeds have hardly ever been addressed, and reading about the phenomena in WIKIPEDIA may make illegal research appear legal.

How do people know of developments that cannot and must not be known because the science to have gained this knowledge would not have been based on existing laws? If somebody puts in his or her knowledge of uploading another identity into a human, would WIKIPEDIA, please, require this person to disclose whether this knowledge stems from legal sources:

experience as a consenting research human own legal research with consenting humans and AI Other (consumption of science fiction books should not count) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.41.156.8 (talk) 15:27, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Excessive external links from main page

This was a huge pile of links that someone put in, and is the sort of list that inspired WP:ELNO. I'd suggest people pick it over and turn these into inline references as is useful to do so - David Gerard (talk) 00:26, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

The list

• Nichols, Steve (1988). "The Posthuman Manifesto (originally published 1988 UK)."
• Dixon, Dougal (1990). Man After Man: An Anthropology of the Future.
• Pepperell, Robert (1995). The Posthuman Condition: Consciousness beyond the brain.
• Rahimi, Sadeq (2000). Identities without a Reference: Towards a Theory of Posthuman Identity., M/C: A Journal of Media and Culture , Vol. 3, No. 3, June 2000.
• Nedkova, Iliyana; Byrne, Chris. (2004) Designer Bodies: Towards the Posthuman Condition, Art Research Communication.
• (in French) Babin, Dominique (2004). PH1. Manuel d'usage et d'entretien du post-humain. Flammarion. (review in The Future Fire 1).
• Bostrom, Nick.(2005) In Defence of Posthuman Dignity, Bioethics, Vol. 19, No. 3, pp. 202–214. doi:10.1111/j.1467-8519.2005.00437.x
• Nalesnik, Daniel (2005). "Posthumanity: Changing Our Species."
• (in French) Serge Venturini (2007). Éclats d’une poétique du devenir post-humain, 2000-2007, (Livre II), Éditions L'Harmattan, coll. « Poètes des cinq continents », Paris, 2007 ISBN 978-2-296-03301-6. [4]
• Elhefnawy, Nader (2007) Nikolai Fedorov and the Dawn of the Posthuman in The Future Fire.
• Seidel, Asher (2008). Inhuman Thoughts: Philosophical Explorations of Posthumanity. Review by C. L'Hôte, Ph.D. in Metapsychology, Jan 6th 2009.
• Hiller, James P. (2010). A Superluminal Transmission, Short Story.
• Ferrando, Francesca (2012). Humans, Cyborgs, Posthumans, TED (conference).
• Quaresma, Alexandre (2014). Humano-pós-humano: Bioética, conflitos e dilemas da Pós-Modernidade., Common Ground Publisher, Madrid, ISBN 9788415665076.

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The current version of this document can be found here now. I'll change this reference accordingly. --Tathar (talk) 05:11, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Proposing merge with Transhuman

I'm proposing that Transhuman be merged into Posthuman. The former article requires the latter for context, so keeping them together in one article may be more appropriate. In the meantime, I've cross-linked the articles. --Tathar (talk) 07:24, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

• Merge, or arguably "split" between Posthuman, Transhumanism and wikt:transhuman. --dab (𒁳) 06:51, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
• Merge. Kinda fuzzy on the idea that "transhuman" is significantly different from "posthuman". Transhuman appears to be similar to the term "missing link" in classical human evolution theory. In any case, both articles are manageable in size, and the size increase that results from a merger would still be manageable in my opinion. So, "merge on". Paine Ellsworth, ed.  ^put'r there  11:47, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

To editors Tathar and ­dab: pinging nom and participant. Paine Ellsworth, ed.  ^put'r there  12:40, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

"Transhuman" is a transitory state of being between "human" and "posthuman," so it is similar to the concept of a "missing link," if you forgive that these are categories that branch out into progressively more diverse states of being rather than a single species and form. Not quite human anymore, but not so far off to be something entirely different. --Tathar (talk) 23:10, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

Surely Transhumanism is a better target for Transhuman than Posthuman. I see the argument of Dbachmann for a 3-way split, but in order to keep things simpler (and to have a better ultimate redirect), I suggest that Transhumanism (a well-developed article) should be the target. Klbrain (talk) 19:55, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

It's not. Transhuman and posthuman are more closely-related ideas. Transhumanism is also related, but more distantly, and it's possible to explain the first two without necessarily introducing the last. --Tathar (talk) 23:10, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

The two concepts are indeed closely linked. However, so are many concepts on wikipedia. Keeping the two distinct makes more sense, and referring interested parties to the separate and closely related article is more appropriate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:E000:1314:8A4B:354D:ECE8:8FD4:8B34 (talk) 20:44, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

• Keep, A small section on Transhuman should be added, but a link to the main Transhuman page should be added, which seems to be the more appropriate solution NVDELHm (talk) 10:27, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

Closing, given that the discussion is stale with no consensus and there are objections. Klbrain (talk) 20:49, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

I'd appreciate if someone could make a decision, since this discuss template is quite bothering. TheBartgry (talk) 14:45, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

To editor Klbrain: Does the objection cite any policy reasons for it? Votes that are unsubstantiated by policy or reasonable rationale are supposed to be ignored for consensus purposes per WP:NOTVOTE, and WP:OVERLAP calls for merging in cases like this. --Tathar (talk) 23:10, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

I closed the merge proposal 2 months ago; if you'd like to open a new one, feel free to. I also suggest not adding discussion in a non-chronological order, and adding discussion in the midst of a closed discussion; that makes following the line of the discussion more difficult. I'm sorry, but I also can't follow your line of objection; you write about 'votes' being ignored, but the point to a policy that points out that discussions are not about votes, but about lines of argument. Klbrain (talk) 04:13, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose They are clearly two separate topics. ~ HAL333 05:13, 19 May 2020 (UTC)