Talk:Popular Orthodox Rally

Macedonia (Future Perfect at Sunrise)

I would really appreciate it if you could direct me to where Wikipedia explains that it has the option to rename countries. In my understanding only "article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize". That's why even unrecognized countries use their unrecognized name in article names, but in other articles linking to that the official status is used. Furthermore, Wikipedia redirects FYROM link to the "Republic of Macedonia" page, a clear sign that it doesn't recognize only one name.

I'm not editing it yet because i don't want to get in an editing war, especially with an admin. If you can direct me to where Wikipedia says there is a "standard name" for FYROM, or where it says that unrecognized names should be used inside articles and recognized names shouldn't, i would be more than happy to comply. Constantinos7 (talk) 17:31, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Reply to the anonymous editor (IP address 87.203.120.219, among others) in regards to recent edits

Since there's not enough space to answer the anonymous user's points in the edit summary, I will do so here in order to facilitate debate and consensus.

Anonymous writes: "it is generally agreed" is infered from one article? And in any case, this section is about the particular incident, not apologetics about the general nature of the party's character

There are no apologetics here, only an aim to balance the article in question from ideological biases, which seem to run rampant. The fact of the matter is that no serious Greek political analyst has ever characterized Popular Rally as "fascist" or "nazi". The only place I've ever heard such accusations emanate from are from the anarchist quarter (i.e., the same quarter that, among other things, also characterizes Marxist magazines such as Resalto as "Christiano-fascist"). If you happen to disagree with this fact then simply find credible sources that demonstrate your view rather than deleting sourced statements by political analysts that attest to this fact.

As for the section itself, I don't believe it constitutes a controversy given that: a) there is no conclusive evidence that the individual who gave the Roman salute was even a member/sympathizer of the party and b) this incident is singular. If Karatzaferis had given the Roman salute or if a vibrant fascist culture existed within the party then, yes, a controversy would definitely exist. However, given that none of this exists, this minor incident is not only trivial but irrelevant, especially when one considers that it was officially denounced by the party and, since then, has never come up again anywhere. That said, I personally don't care if the section remains or is removed. However, if it does remain, then we are obligated to balance it in order to maintain a neutral point of view.

Anonymous writes: "yes", "but", "however", "nonetheless". Both viewpoints are sufficiently presented in this version of the section and there is no need for pov butchering

The text, in the form you left it, clearly implies (through omission of relevant information) that the the party is not only sympathetic to fascism but also protects its fascist members. You cannot write that "neither Karatzaferis nor any of the other participants in LAOS's convention 'displayed the slightest reaction' at the gesture" and omit the fact that there were 2,500+ people in attendance. The very article that is used to source this information makes it a point to mention this very important fact, so why are you hesitant to include it?

Anonymous writes: completely reverting deluge of pov edits. the Kathimerini article analyst, for example, specifically parallelizes LAOS with Lepen, in contrast to your assertions

As I wrote in the edit summary: "Re-read the source: nowhere does it state 'homosexuals, Jews and immigrants continue to be denounced as "black sheep" throughout LA.OS's campaigns'". Here follows the relevant excerpt from the article:

“Judging from statements by (LAOS leader) Giorgos Karatzaferis, any lingering doubts can be removed. In the 2004 elections, alongside the ‘usual’ black sheep (such as Jews, Communists, homosexuals) Karatzaferis, like his French mentor, added immigrants. I think the fact that part of Greek society is openly following him — and their numbers are growing, not counting the silent minority who agree with him but still vote for major parties — allows us to speak of a ‘Greek-French axis.’”

Now this is what the text, in the way you left it, reads:

"However, political analysts note that despite proclamations to the opposite, homosexuals, Jews and immigrants continue to be denounced as "black sheep" throughout LA.OS's campaigns"

The source does not lay any basis for the personal views you are inserting into the article. Nowhere in that article does it say that homosexuals, Jews, or immigrants "continue to be denounced as 'black sheep' throughout LA.OS's campaigns". On the contrary, it states that they run as candidates in the party. The use of the term "black sheep" is the author's and not Popular Rally's. Further, if you look at other statements Karatzaferis has made (which I have provided in this very talk page), you'll see that he's voiced sentiments like "I don't like for people [homosexuals] to hide. When someone remains in the shadows it becomes demonized, when it comes into the light it becomes cushioned". If you have credible information demonstrating that "homosexuals, Jews and immigrants continue to be denounced as 'black sheep' throughout LA.OS's campaigns", then by all means use it in the article. But don't misconstrue sources because it's what you personally believe.

All of that said, I must bring up the fact that when you reverted my edit here, you reverted all aspects of it (including sourced information on a totally different subject) and not just what you mentioned in your edit summary. I ask that, in the future, you be more careful in what information you revert, taking care not to delete information that has nothing to do with your objections. Critias 14:28, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Far-Right or simply Populist?

First of all, I don't know of a single political party in the world that describes itself as "far-Right". I do, however, know of many groups with an ideological bias that characterize a superabundance of political parties as "far-Right" in order to discredit them by making them appear less mainstream and of an extremist character.

Secondly, Popular Rally is not a Rightist party, let alone one that belongs to the "far-Right". Although, originally Popular Orthodox Rally was indeed a Rightist party who's membership was initially composed primarily of nationalists, it was never extremist even at that time. And, as the following series of excerpts and statements will show, not only was it never extremist but its political orientation steadily gravitated to the Left and finally became so convoluted that it can only be viewed as a Popularist party.

An interview published in the 27 October 2002 issue of the newspaper Eleftheros Typos titled "I am not far-Right" interviewed Georgios Karatzaferis, the leader of the party. At one point the interviewer said: "Your references towards foreigners, to nationalism, etc. illustrate the ideological characteristics of the Far-Right". Karatzferis' response was: "[...] I stated that we are bursting at the seams with migrants and that they should not live at the expense of our Greek citizens. I spoke of patriotism. If certain individuals poison the word by associating it with nationalism, it's not my fault. I represent the pre-dictatorship Right. I represent the ERE, the Popular Party".

Excerpts from a news article (even if the very article labels the party as being "far-Right") dated 2004 also provides evidence of Karatzaferis' rejection of the "far-Right": "[...] Karatzaferis dismissed any link with right-wing extremism. [...] 'LAOS is not a party of the extreme right, it's a profoundly democratic party,' he told a news conference Sunday. 'Resuscitating extremism is far from my nature. I'm an altruist,' he said Monday in an interview with private radio station Flash. The extreme-right-label was an 'insult' to him, he added".[1]

Two of Popular Orthodox Rally's official publications -- one of them (i.e "G. Karatzaferis, the untamed will: Faith, Struggles, Victory") a record of the leader's views as expressed in his television channel Tele-Asty and the other a small ideological booklet with the political proposals of the party -- reveal the self-described character of the party. On pages 75 and 76 of the first book, the following statements are made: "LA.O.S passionately believes in democracy", "it is a liberal party", "it is not imbued with racist hang-ups", and "it is not a dogmatic, anti-Semitic, or anti-American party". Similar views are reflected on pages 13 and 14 of the booklet which, aside from characterizing Popular Orthodox Rally as liberal also maintains that it has a modernizing intent. On page 16 the booklet speaks of "A polity that will be characterized by Popular Liberalism". On page 72 of the first book, Karatzaferis is recorded as stating that "from the right we kept patriotism and from the left popular demands". Page 146 reads, "Today we must recognize that left-wing ideology battles for truth and wins comparably with right-wing ideology" while page 168 reads, "In the political party LA.O.S we believe in a right-wing creed and a left-wing solidarity". Page 145 states the following: "Migrants have been in Greece for a number of years. Some of them have married, some have had children, [so] we can't turn them away and as the years pass they find roots here and acquire rights".[2]

An English-language article published in Kathimerini in 2006 expresses some doubts as to whether one can consider the political party "far-Right" given that Communists, foreigners, and homosexuals have all been members of it since 2004: "[...] One first has to decide whether LAOS is an ultra-right party [...] 'Judging from statements by (LAOS leader) Giorgos Karatzaferis, any lingering doubts can be removed. In the 2004 elections, alongside the "usual" black sheep (such as Jews, Communists, homosexuals) Karatzaferis, like his French mentor, added immigrants.'"[3]

Indeed, Karatzaferis has openly spoken about Communist candidates who were formerly long-time members of the Communist Party of Greece running as candidates. For instance, some statements published in the newspaper I Lisi in 2005 include: "[...] we have an exceptional official that comes from a serious artistic background and politically from KKE [Communist Party of Greece]". Likewise, Karatzaferis has been been interviewed by homosexual magazines, has met with homosexual organizations, and openly voiced his party's support through a party press release, dated 4 April 2005, in which the following is stated: "[...] Mr. Karatzaferis stated that homophobia must be fought and a resolution found for issues concerning them based on the freedom of the individual [...]".[4]

The fact that all major Greek nationalist newspapers have long criticized Karatzaferis for his views and/or actions and the party he represents is also quite suggestive in dispelling the myth of a "far-Right" nature. (Even Helenic Lines -- the very party newspaper of Hellenic Front, the Rightist political party that would later merge with Popular Orthodox Rally -- would denounce Karatzaferis on a regular basis.)

Although it is true that Karatzaferis once voiced strongly nationalist views before the creation of Popular Orthodox Rally, and that the political party had a moderately nationalist character of a Rightist nature in its first one or two years of existence, its ideological foundations dramatically shifted to an entirely different direction after that time in order to appeal to a Leftist audience. As a result, the party's membership and support is made up of radically diverse groups that span the Left-Right political spectrum. Therefore -- and along with the leader's own statements denouncing the "far-Right" as well as characterizing his party as everything from a "pre-dictatorship Right" to a merger of Left and Right to a "Popular Liberalism" -- there is no basis whatsoever to brand the political party as "far-Right". There is, however, ample support to describe it as Populist. Critias 04:55, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Karatzaferis is a master in making conflicting statements, depending on the audience and what he perceives the latter as wanting to hear, but that does not change the fact that his preoccupation with certain subjects places him squarely within chauvinist circles, be that left-oriented or right.

For example, you mentioned that he claims to be against homophobia, didn't you? He's probably as "opposed" to homophobia as Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson are -- paying lip service to the principle of tolerance, while at the same time indulging in the most hateful homophobic proclamations. Do the statements below strike you as tolerant of homosexuals?

• • Claiming that there is an international conspiracy by the forces of globalization to turn straight people into gays, so that they may become "more obedient to the system" (!)

• • Saying that a third of the congressmen in this country are "passive homosexuals with Albanian lovers" (!)

Nice insertion of xenophobia into the extremist mix with the latter comment, eh?

How about tolerance towards Jews, then?

He has been recorded calling Jews "enemies of the nation", "God-murderers" (θεοκτόνους), "propagators of the Auschwitz myth". He did not shy from suggesting in parliament that Jews orchestrated the 11th September attacks against the WTC. And he has stated that "Hitler was a mere college-boy compared to these Jews".

And yet, all these do not inhibit him from hypocritically condemning antisemitism and homophobia, when in front of an audience he deems hostile to these extremisms. Such is the nature of the political chameleon. And of course, the same goes to his stance on a host of different matters.

I suppose an argument might be convincingly made that he represents an amalgamation of not only far-right, but far-left extremisms as well. To this effect, I will refer you to his statement that "except for matters of foreign policy, the party he finds himself in most agreement with is the Communist Party of Greece" (that is, the party consisting of unrepentant Stalinists), the fact he is a died-in-the-wool statist, and his constant demonization of capitalism and especially globalization. If I were to be accurate, the best description of his party would be "National Socialist". 212.251.121.243 13:52, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

As I stated in Talk:List_of_political_parties_in_Greece, "It is also worth mentioning that Karatzaferis' rhetoric today (which is oftentimes very Liberal) is radically different than the rhetoric that made him such a controversial figure". While in New Democracy, Karatazaferis attempted to cultivate a following among nationalists (a politically neglected group) by voicing views that would appeal to them. He was successful in that. Following the time he left (or was expelled) from New Democracy, Karatzaferis continued this charade in order to gain support for his new political party, Popular Orthodoxy Rally, which was formed in 2000. But, as I thoroughly demonstrated above, this rhetoric was short-lived indeed as he began to (almost immediately) pander to the Left after he had gained that initial support for his party from nationalists. Since 2002, Karatzaferis has generally continued to cater to the Left and focused his attention on neglected groups while still trying to portray a semblance of (non-existent) "patriotism" and "Orthodox Christian piety".

Regarding homosexuality, this is one of the aforementioned politically neglected groups that Karatzaferis has focused his attention on and Popular Rally is not only tolerant of homosexuality but also seems to be the most accepting of it among all the political parties in Greece. In response to an interviewer of a gay magazine who alleged that there were "many reactions" against Karatzaferis when he began his pro-homosexual campaign, Karatzaferis responsed by saying, "That's not true. The only one to really disagree was Mr. Droulias, who came from KKE [Communist Party of Greece]. In the previous elections, we even had a gay candidate, regardless if he didn't come out and announce it. We have homosexual workers at our [television] channel, and they do a very good job. I don't like for people to hide. When someone remains in the shadows it becomes demonized, when it comes into the light it becomes cushioned". Speaking of Communists, it's also worth mentioning that the remarks made in Parliament by Karatzaferis regarding the terrorist attacks against the United States being a Jewish conspiracy were also supported by Georgios Hourmouziadis, a Communist member of Parliament. So citing this doesn't prove that Karatzaferis was (or is) part of the far-Right. Unless, of course, you also believe that KKE is part of the far-Right?

To put it simply, Karatzaferis is not a Rightist or a Leftist and this is something that needs to be understood. He is simply a Populist that will appeal to any group in order to gain enough votes to put him into Parliament. All of the stataments you cited above were made while Karatzaferis was in his "nationalist phase". Try to find a single statement remotely like that made after 2002. You won't because none exist. Karatzaferis, somewhere down the road, realized that appealing to the nationalist minority of Greece alone wasn't going to put him in Parliament (let alone in office) and he consequently decided to pander to a wide range of other groups that, all together, might place Popular Rally into the Parliament. By doing so, he effectively alienated his initial nationalist core and the party no longer is made up primarily of Rightist nationalists but rather by individuals who run the entire Left-Right political spectrum.

How you came to the conclusion that the best description of Popular Rally is "National Socialist" is beyond me. Critias 17:58, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Ever heard of the expression "Wolf in sheep's clothing?" No, that was not a fascist sallute in the LAOS meeting, that was an angry raised anarchocommunist fist. Heh. Η Πηγάδα να είναι καλά, και από φασίστες.... Project2501a 18:47, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Το τελευταίο τμήμα του παραπάνω σχολίου είναι αποκαλυπτικό για όσους νομίζουν ότι οι ακροαριστεροί υπολείπονται σε μισαλλοδοξία και δολοφονικό μένος από τους εθνικοσοσιαλιστές και τους φασίστες.

Δύο όψεις του ίδιου νομίσματος είστε, καημένοι.. 212.251.121.243 13:52, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

An individual who attended one of Popular Rally's gatherings did indeed give the Roman salute to Karatzaferis. However that was by an individual who opposed the political party and was attempting to protest it and Karatzaferis. That he gave a salute associated with Fascism and/or National Socialism was to demonstrate that Karatzaferis was a Fascist/National Socialist and nothing more. To any rational and objective person, this should be quite obvious. Especially considering that this act was harshly denounced in the party's press releases. If you can prove that the individual who gave the salute was a member of Popular Rally, please do so. Otherwise, this is all a moot point.

I will also add that among nationalists (especially those who are of the Fascist or National Socialist persuasion), Karatzaferis and his party have been under a constant barrage of attacks for the last several years. Pick up an issue of Stochos, Eleftheros Kosmos, or Golden Dawn and there is almost a complete certainty that that issue will contain something very negative to say about Karatzaferis and about his political party. Karatzaferis is seen as a pseudo-nationalist and loathed by Greek Fascists and National Socialists. The idea that Greek Fascists and/or National Socialists actually support him is absurd to say the least. Critias 16:46, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Regarding that last statement made (which condoned the Communist massacre of civilians in Meligala, and of "Fascists" in general, for those who can't understand Greek) in the comment I originally responded to (i.e. the one about "a fascist sallute in the LAOS meeting"), it probably suggests that my attempt at debate with the author was in vain. However, I do hope that my rebuttal will find greater resonance among those with less murderous intentions in their hearts. Critias 19:01, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

In addition to everything written above, it is also important to note that Popular Rally is winning votes from (both moderate and radical) leftists. An article from Athens News states that the Communist Party of Greece is "even losing voters to him [Karatzaferis]".[5] Likewise, a survey from Metron Analysis (which was broadcast on Antenna a few nights ago) showed that Pan-Hellenic Socialist Movement Party (PASOK) may lose up to 3.9% of votes to Popular Rally whereas New Democracy (Karatzaferis' former party) may only lose up to 3.4%. These are more facts that go in the face of Popular Rally being a "far-right" party. Critias 17:05, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Far right. Why? Because if you knows Greek politics, they simply are. --AaThinker (talk) 21:10, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I would say, that the Popular Orthodox Rally isn't a far right party. I would order it in the word 'Right'. They aren't extremists like the 'new' party 'Golden Dawn'. They try to send immigrants away - but they don't want to use violence. The Popular Orthodox Rally isn't 'far right'.--Zois (talk) 18:55, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Popular Orthodox Rally or Popular Rally?

It is worth noting that Popular Orthodox Rally was renamed Popular Rally and that this is something that should be reflected in the article. The newspaper Stochos published an article on 1 September 2005 that was titled "Karatzaferis Removed 'Orthodox' From His Party". The article in question quoted Karatzaferis as saying that the reason for the change was because, "Many mischievous journalists call our party Laos [Λάος, with the stress on the "a"] and not Laos [Λαός, with the stress on the "o"] and so we were forced into renaming it". The newspaper Eleftheros Kosmos also notes the change in an article published 16 October 2005, titled "How LA.O.S. Became LA.SY.". It describes how, shortly after 2002, "Mr. G. Karatzaferis began, unilaterally and without worning, to change the character and the manner of the party, nastily perturbing his staff and supporters. [...] There were intense protests because [...] the archetypal designation (LA.O.S.) and the sign (cross) of the party were gone. [...] 'Coincidently' with the accession of Mr. M. Voridis, the party of Mr. G. Karatzaferis gained a double designation: a) the written Popular Orthodox Rally (LA.O.S.) and b) the verbal Popular Rally (LA.SY.) since henceforth that is how the party has been called by its leader and his associates". Alpha Ena, the newspaper associated with the party has also run images on its front cover displaying the new name (i.e. "Popular Rally") from at least 3 September 2005 (and possibly earlier, though I am not certain). Critias 06:01, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Corrections

1) Velopoulos is no longer a member of LA.O.S. 2) The name of this political party has NOT been changed!

Extreme right party? Or just a populist party?

I'm not sure that the caracterization "extreme right" is correct for Karatzaferis and LAOS. He may be affiliates with other extreme right parties in Europe, but his own ideological background isn't the background of an extreme-right politician. According to my opinion, he seems more like a populist politician and his party has certain similarities with the populist party of Portugal. I think we must distinguish between the far-right and the populist movement and I think that Karatzaferis and LAOS represent the ideological movement of populism and not of far-right.

Even Karatzaferis' career in the European Parliament reflects a populist and not a nationalist far-right politician.--Yannismarou 10:06, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I see that most people agree that LAOS isn't a nationalist party, strange that it's still in the article.

I would suggest changing the term "nationalist" to "conservative" to better reflect the political stance of LAOS. I would also suggest an addition after Hellenic Front's comment explaining that there is a nationalist presence in the party. If no one disagrees i will make the changes after some days. Constantinos7 06:22, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I am in agreement that Popular Rally is not a nationalist party but I am in disagreement about it being conservative. In what way is Popular Rally conservative? If anything, it is liberal; but even that is not an entirely correct characterization. Consider the following: the party has shown explicit support for homosexuality, foreigners and communists have both been members of the party, and the party leader has referred to himself as an "anarchist and anti-authoritarian" and "the brother of KKE [Communist Party of Greece] and cousin of PASOK [Pan-Hellenic Socialist Movement Party]". (The last statements come from the local newspaper "Mesa ton Ioanninon" and was also quoted in the newspaper "Stochos" on 16 March 2006.) These are not the sort of things a conservative political party or its leader associates itself with. That's not to say that all members of the party (or even most) support these views but it is notable that some important figures, like Karatzaferis, do. Critias 01:18, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not going to change it just to make even more POV but from the opposite side mate. LA.O.S is a eurosceptic party, like many conservative parties but unlike liberal. It advocates a strict immigration policy unlike liberals. It belongs to IND/DEM, a conservative group with no liberal parties in that supports No to a European superstate, Respect for traditional and cultural values etc. It's a big supporter of the Church, like many conservatives but no liberals.

I give you that the party isn't against homosexuality but it's Europe 2007, only a handful of extreme right wing parties are against it. I can quote you many conservative parties not rejecting homosexuality.

About his comments, if you add to the ones you mentioned the many statements he did about his relation with ND you have the entire political spectrum of Greece, making him a Liberal Conservative Nationalist Social Democratic Communist Anti-authoritarian Anarchist. You know that's not the case :P Point is, statements like that one can be used for political propaganda but they need to be proven and supported by political actions before written in an encyclopedia as facts.

Anyway, those are just my opinions, since there is disagreement i will not change it to "conservative" for now.Constantinos7 03:39, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

My point was not that Popular Rally was liberal -- as I previously said, that would not be an entirely correct characterization -- but rather that one could argue that it was closer to liberalism than to conservatism. You say that Popular Rally is eurosceptic but, as far as I know, it has never called for Greece's withdrawal from the European Union. The party is opposed to illegal immigration but, at the same time, Karatzaferis has bragged about his foreign house servants from Sri Lanka (if I'm not mistaken). As for the party's position on homosexuality, it is not one of neutrality but one of support since Karatzaferis has not only met with homosexual organizations but also explicitly voiced support for homosexual rights in official press releases and in homosexual magazines. It is also worth mentioning that Popular Rally has never self-described as "conservative" but has, on numerous occasions, self-characterized its beliefs as "liberal" (and still does as you can see in the Ideological Platform of its website[6]). But, again, it is not my intention to depict Popular Rally as liberal since it is an amalgamation of all sorts of political philosophies and ideologies. Critias 18:45, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Velopoulos

A few hours ago i removed velopoulos from the rally's members since he is no longer one--Nfostiras

Ξερω οτι Βελοπουλος παει για δημαρχος Πελλας. Με ποιο κομμα παει? Δεν ειναι ο ΛΑΟΣ ? user:panosfidis

Πάει σαν ανεξάρτητος με υποστήριξη από το ΛΑ.Ο.Σ. --Nfostiras

Ρε παιδια στα EXIT POLL εδειχναν το βελοπουλο με μωβ χρωμα που ειναι το χρωμα που εβαζαν στους υποψηφιους του καρατζαφερη και στον ιδιο τον καρατζαφερη. Τους ανεξαρτητους τους ειχαν με ασπρο. Και ξαναρωταω: ειστε ΣΙΓΟΥΡΟΙ πως δεν ειναι ο Βελοπουλος στον Καρατζαφερη?

user:panosfidis

Σύμφωνα με την σελίδα του Υπουργείου Εσωτερικών ο Βελόπουλος ήταν υποψήφιος του ΛΑΟΣ. http://194.176.113.1/2006/nomarxia.aspx?id=41 Τέλος της συζήτησης.

Αρα ο Βελοπουλος ανηκει στην παραγραφο "Party Members" user:panosfidis

Georgiades Bros

In the member's list I changed the "georgiades bros " to "leonidas georgiades" since Adonis Georgiades was already mentioned... Tbere 23:59, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

A multi-culti party after all?

It is quite bizarre to note that at least two MPs of LAOS fly in the face of the party's homophobic and crypto-fascist stereotype:

1. Vaitsis Apostolatos, a gayer-than-a-handbag-full-of-rainbows sex-therapist cum TV persona who is apparently the first openly homosexual member of the Greek parliament.
2. Dimitra Arapoglou, a deaf-mute sign language teacher, who would have certainly been a media darling had she been elected by any other party.

Both Apostolatos and Arapoglou are the type of people any true fascist would fantasize throwing of the Kaiadas cliff. So is LAOS the new Peace 'n' Love party of bleeding-hearts and artists? NOT! I can think of a few of its other MPs would certainly not allow that :) But it certainly appears that it is a highy heterogenous party whose electorate largely represents protest votes. Rastapopoulos 14:27, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Mitsos 16:22, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Some organizations call it People's Orthodox Alarm

Is it possible to add to the title section that some organizations call it People's Orthodox Alarm? Source: http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/31365/greeks_would_back_pasok_syr_alliance 87.219.85.162 (talk) 16:31, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Even when it sounds strange, 'Alarm' is the correct translation. I changed it inside the article, but I think also the page name should be changed itself. Maybe it's worth mentioning, that it is translated wrongly into 'Rally' by some media and also by google, likely due to another meaning of 'Synagermós' in ancient greek. The meaning in modern greek definitely is 'Alarm'.

195.167.65.123 (talk) 11:54, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

parliamentary blocs

The article says:

Of the ten Popular Orthodox Rally candidates who entered the parliament in 2007, two are considered to be part of the "nationalist bloc"..

This raises the obvious question of what blocs (if any) the remaining 8 are part of. Are there other identifiable ideological blocs within the party's parliamentary group? --Delirium (talk) 10:17, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Neo-fascist tendencies

Some of the most prominent members such as Vorides,Georgiades and Plevris have done pro-fascist comments.Also they have participated in neo-fascist groups-read the template citing.Finally they advocate ideas such as anti-semitism and anti-communism,and they support the well-known fascist regime of Metaxas.Many parliamentary representatives have been also admirers,even Georgios Karatzaferis of the Military Junta of 1967. Finally members such as Velopoulos,have endorsed white-nationalist and greek-nationalist occultism, such as the Myth of the Nephilim and staff like these. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.74.105.226 (talk) 14:55, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

LA.O.S. and Euroscepticism

According to the party's official positions: [7] (in Greek) (p28, Section ΣΤ 1, 1.2 Για την Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση (for the EU), my translation)

"We believe that the future of our country is connected with the European Union in an important degree and we support the admission of all European countries inside a viable Union, however we think that this is possible to happen only within a Confederation where the historical, cultural and national roots, as well as the individual national characteristics of the European people will be recognised and protected. We support a united Europe of the nations, as is seen and supported by the INDEM.

We also believe that the European Union can and should mutually form a common foreign policy for issues of major interest, however, each European country, and we as Greece, should keep the right to veto for issues that are of vital national importance to them."

Can those views be considered Euroscepticism? Kosm1fent ^{Won't you talk to me?} 17:27, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the latest conflict in this article, I'd say its best to include neither euroscepticism nor pro-Europeanism in the infobox, since they are too ambigiuos in this context. Better just write a section about it inside the article instead. —Filippusson (t.) 18:23, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

"Their positions on Europe are eurosceptic"[8]. In addition they are a member of the Europe of Freedom and Democracy Group in the European Parliament and EFD is the most eurosceptical group there. --89.27.103.116 (talk) 21:10, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

The party's own publications and statements should not be considered reliable. This source has been published on the site of European University Institute which puts it near academic sources and gives it quite some credibility. As to the news articles, I am sorry to say that I cannot read Greek. What do they state? Anyway, we should not over-emphasize the content of some "cherry-picked" newspaper articles. For now, I agree with Bellatores to include neither of the labels, unless this debate has been settled. Kind regards --RJFF (talk) 21:22, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

And as stated, this neutral source does call them eurosceptic.[9] And I doubt EFD would even accept a party as its member if it were not eurosceptic. --89.27.103.116 (talk) 03:15, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

The LAOS leader, puts his party among the pro-european front, against the Communist Party's euroscepticism. That is well known in Greece. That is what newspapers say about. --Greek Transistor (talk) 00:32, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Surely this Papademos cabinet is a unique situation. Participating in that does not mean that the party isn't eurosceptic in general. During World War II the British Conservatives and the Labour Party cooperated in the same unity cabinet. That does mean they were not ideologically apart? --89.27.103.116 (talk) 03:15, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm afraid the sources put by Greek Transistor supporting pro-Europeanism are not reliable, as both newspapers are controled by far-left Greek parties. Despite that, they both share one alleged quote from Karatzaferis' interview, described by Greek Transistor above. Bear in mind however, Greek Transistor, that nothing is ever black or white; although a quick reading of LAOS' positions about the EU might identify it as pro-European and confirm your sources, after a more careful reading you'll see that he supports a Union where the Nation should prevail. This, according to page 160 of this book, can be classified as "soft euroscepticism", as he supports the idea of a Union with some objections. Also take a look page 57 of the same book, where he describes the Croatian equivelant of LAOS and their position on Croatia's admission to the EU; check Aleksandar Štulhofer's quote at page 58: "Exclusive nationalism and its socio-cultural, political and economic presumpions have proved, also in this study, to be an important source of Euroscepticism.", and you cannot disagree that LAOS is an extremely nationalistic party.

There sure are some dark spots still, but in no way can you call him pro-European for saying one small unclear phrase (because he didn't call himself directly pro-Europeanist, and Ευρωπαϊστής does not clearly mean pro-Europeanist in Greek).

RJFF – the party's positions are a primary source; not terribly reliable, but useful to get an idea where they stand. I agree that the EUI's document is pretty reliable, perhaps the most reliable of all, since it's a recognised institution.

In conclusion, I think "euroscepticism" is the better (if any) of the two descriptions on LAOS' foreign policy. Kosm1fent ^{Won't you talk to me?} 09:29, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your detailed and convincing clarification. --RJFF (talk) 17:10, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

"Alleged"? Do you believe that the quote is "alleged", because the newspapers are left-wing??? The newspapers, have comments on an original interview of Karatzaferis. If you speak Greek, hear this. It's the "alleged" quote from Karatzaferis' mouth! And now, tell me.. is he an euroscepticist? --Greek Transistor (talk) 00:41, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Please accept that third-party studies are considered more reliable than what the party leader himself says. Politicians can "eat boiled crow". So, neutral sources should be preferred over the party's own first-party statements. The reliable sources say "eurosceptic", so we cannot put "pro-European", just because the party leader claims to be. --RJFF (talk) 15:19, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

@ Greek Transistor: I'm not saying that he definitely is a euroscepticist, I'm merely proving that he is far from being pro-European. Also, watch the 0:44 of this video with Karatzaferis' interview after today's meeting with Papademos: [10] ("Europe is like a fireplace; too far away and you are cold, too close and you are scorched.")

Platform

In the platform of the Popular Orthodox Rally(L.A.O.S) one of the points state.

-Ban immigration from outside the European Union and deport all illegal immigrants.

Does this apply to the Greek diaspora in countries such as U.S.A, Australia, Canada and other diaspora that are not in the EU? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Soccershoes1 (talk • contribs) 04:05, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

There is virtually no immigration from those countries you mentioned. LA.O.S. most likely means immigration from the Middle East, Southeastern Asia and Africa. – Kosm1fent 04:46, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

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