Talk:Popular Civic List

Article's name

I thank Nick.mon for creating this article, but I am not convinced by the article's name. Civica is a shortname for lista civica, that is to say "civic list" or "citizens' list". I would personally move the article to Popular Civic List, consistently with Daisy Civic List (Civica Margherita), alas the Trentino regional party that inspired Democracy is Freedom – The Daisy in 2000 and a the Civica Popolare. @Nick.mon and Autospark: what do you think? --Checco (talk) 14:07, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Agree with that – additionally, Popular Civic List makes more sense in English than just Popular Civic.--Autospark (talk) 18:00, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Yes I totallye agree, in fact the name "Popular Civic" has frankly few sense... -- Nick.mon (talk) 00:37, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

"was" vs "became"

@Checco: this sentence is wrong: "In September 2019 Lorenzin joined the PD, while Toccafondi was a founding member of Renzi's Italia Viva party." This sentence in English means that in September, Toccafondi was a founding member of IV (as in, he was in September but he could not be in other moments). Being a founding member is a one-time event, you can't say that in September he was a founding member, because he is a founding member also in October, November etc. I think you are overlooking the English meaning of the past tense of the verb "to be". The right way to say it is: in September he became a founding member, or he joined the founding members, or if you want to use "to be" you have to say that in September he agreed (or decided) to be a founding member. The action of being a founding member cannot be said in the past in this case, because Toccafondi is still a founding member of IV, and the sentence begins with "In September". Asking also English native speaker Autospark for comments. --Ritchie92 (talk) 09:10, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

I like to improve my English, thus thanks for opening this thread.

The sentence "In September 2019 Lorenzin joined the PD, while Toccafondi was a founding member of Renzi's Italia Viva party" is correct. Indeed, in September, precisely in September, Toccafondi was a founding member of that party. I understand that he will continue to be a founding member forever, but, still, that sentence is OK.

I prefer "was" over "became": the latter sounds awkward to me. --Checco (talk) 10:24, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

I'm sorry but it looks like you don't get the sense of the sentence. I would appreciate if you would trust me on this, but I will be happy to ask for third opinions. Saying "In September, Toccafondi was a founding member" sounds like he's not anymore, like it was something in the past that does not affect the present anymore. You say here in September, precisely in September, Toccafondi was a founding member of that party, that's another wrong sentence, because as you say it, it sounds like in September he was a founding member, and in October not! Because being a founding member is not episodic, it's a state of being, continuous in time. You can say "Toccafondi has been a founding member, before [doing something else]", if something changed, but that's another story. That's why the correct sentence in English, in this case, is "In September, Toccafondi became (decided to become / to be / to join as) a founding member". I also don't want to discuss forever about grammar, so if we can rephrase the sentence to mean the same thing and avoid that expression I'm fine. --Ritchie92 (talk) 19:04, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

English is different from other languages, thus, when we write in English, we should try to think in English. It is not true, in my view, that "In September 2019 Toccafondi was a founding member" sounds like he is not anymore. Moreover, does it really matter? Now he is a member, more than a founding member. To correct myself, also in Venetian and Italian (the other two languages I know of), it would be the same. In Italian, it would be correct to say Nel settembre 2019 Toccafondi è stato un fondatore di IV. The fact that Toccafondi was a founding member in September 2019 (that Toccafondi sia stato un fondatore di IV nel settembre 2019) does not contradict the fact that Toccafondi may still be a member of the party today. Moreover, we rarely say of Prodi, Veltroni or Zingaretti that they are founding members of the PD, but more often that they were founding members of the PD (Prodi, Veltroni e Zingaretti sono stati memberi fondatori del PD; otherwise, Prodi, Veltroni e Zingaretti sono membri fondatori del PD is correct, but a little bit awkward). This said, a native speaker like User:Autospark, who is also well acquainted with Italian politics and translations from Italian to English, would certainly help. --Checco (talk) 06:16, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Oh no, the sentence Nel settembre 2019 Toccafondi è stato un fondatore di IV is also weird in Italian, especially for the presence of Nel settembre in the sentence! I would say ha partecipato nella fondazione di... or ha fondato..., but Nel settembre 2019 è stato un fondatore is also wrong because it sounds like that short period of his life has ended, and he is not a founder anymore, as of October or November. As a matter of fact this sounds weird also in English (adding to the fact that you don't usually easily translate "è stato" with "was" because English does not have that specific tense), so I would have really appreciated if you listened to me, but whatever. I will try to rephrase it in another way. --Ritchie92 (talk) 07:27, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Believe me, it is not like that.

"Toccafondi was a founding member" is best, but I will rephrase it too. --Checco (talk) 12:24, 25 September 2019 (UTC)