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The Lyrics

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Maybe they are completely nonsensical...just a thought...Colin4C 11:30, 20 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I was taught that the poem referred to organized crime in London, the Eagle (pub) being a meeting place, anyone feel like doing some digging on that? Empty Hat

My father (who was an authentic cockney - born within the sound of Bow Bells and all that) always taught me that "Weasel" was cockney slang for a wedding ring...although he never came up with a convincing rhyming slang for it (not that I can recall at least). So "Pop goes the weasel" would mean "Pawning the wedding ring" - which would be a much more logical thing to pawn than a coat or something with functional value - and in those days might well have been the most valuable thing a poor family owned. The use of "pop" to mean "pawn" is still in use in some parts of the UK where a pawn shop is sometimes called a "popping shop". SteveBaker 01:47, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well not all cockney slang was rhyming slang, just as not all rhyming slang is cockney. I've never heard of 'weasel' for a wedding ring, but you may find a similar-sounding term in Irish, Yiddish, Romani, Shelta, Hindi/Urdu, Thieves cant, or one of the many, many other languages that have donated words to English usage. pablohablo. 21:13, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This gets the most common version of the lyrics wrong. It isn't "Up and down the King's Road/ In and out The Eagle," but rather "Up and down The City Road/ In and out The Eagle" (The Eagle still stands on The City Road in north London). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:6C5E:700E:300:D5F6:AB1C:46A2:1575 (talk) 21:23, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Origin

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User:89.241.68.248 inserted this in the intro after the statement that the tune originated in the 17th century: Gazpacho

[This may be innacurate. My understanding is that the tune is a version of a tune recorded in Gow's Repository, which was printed in 4 volumes 1799-1820, and that this tune is in turn similar to certain jigs traceable back to the 17th Century- source: www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-pop1.htm As I understand, there is no printed citation for the nursery rhyme itself previous to the mid 19th century. While it may well have existed in oral form for many years before this, there is, as I understand, currently no evidence of this. Source: www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/pop-goes-the-weasel Note added by Keith Macpherson]

Thanks for suggesting these sources. I was able to work this into the article.Rublamb (talk) 20:19, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]


Footnote 6 in the Origin section of the main article is not correct. Miller and Beacham's Pop Goes the Weasel was published in 1856 - NOT 1850. You can read the copyright notice on the bottom of page 2 of the sheet music, as preserved on the Lester S. Levy sheet music collection, maintained online by Johns Hopkins University.

https://jscholarship.library.jhu.edu/handle/1774.2/16027 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Svaihingen (talk • contribs) 17:23, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Without revisiting this today, I recall that there is an error with the date on the Miller & Beacham sheet music. Your question suggest that it would be good for this to be documented in an efn--I will try to get to it at some point. However, even if my memory is faulty and the sheet music you found has the correct date of 1856, we cannot rule out numerous editions/publication dates for Miller & Beachman. Certainly, Miller & Beacham must have an earlier edition because the Jas. W. Porter sheet music illustrated in the article (from the Library of Congress) is dated 1853. Since it is generally stated that Miller & Beacham were the first, they have to predate 1853. Rublamb (talk) 21:02, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"cannot rule it out" - but do not have any support for 1850 date, or for the suggestion that they were earlier than anyone else or originated it. There is a Miller and Beacham version that is undated, and which may be earlier than 1856, but ALL of the earliest references to "Pop Goes the Weasel" first appear in 1852 and all of them in England. Even the first reference to the song in a US newspaper in the newspapers.com website is a reprint from an English publication. It is possible that "people generally state" that Miller & Beacham were first because it has been misdated on Wikipedia for many years, and people repeat what they read. It seems unlikely that it was written in the US and debuted in England and then came back. Possible, I suppose, but is there any support for the claim?
https://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/collection/041/063 Miller and Beacham undated version. Svaihingen (talk) 17:55, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
My involvement with this article was a deep copy edit, but I also did a quick check to confirm that the sources and facts matched. There are at least two sources cited in the article that say the song was first published in America. The source you dispute and the book, Pop Goes the Weasel: The Secret Meanings of Nursery Rhymes by Albert Jack which says the song was first published in America. Unfortunately, you do not yet have a secondary source that says the sheet music you are looking is was the first edition or to dispute the claim that Miller and Beacham were the first to publish the tune. And, since Wikipedia does not use original research and primary sources (the sheet music), you do not yet have what is needed to update this article. Also, I can prove that 1856 was not their first edition: there is an 1854 edition in the Library of Congress. And there is another printing at Duke University that appears to lack a date https://repository.duke.edu/dc/hasm/a2552 And, Miller and Beacham are advertising Pop Goes the Weasel sheet music on the back of this sheet music published in 1851 https://www.google.com/books/edition/How_Can_I_Leave_Thee/xdVfkYiAsbcC?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=pop%20goes%20the%20weasel Rublamb (talk) 23:06, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fyi, the copyright date of a song being sold is not the date of printing, and not reliable for dating songs advertised for sale on the back page. For example, in the one you cite, one song advertised on the back page was written in honor of the Washington Monument in 1858, so the sheet was printed at least 7 years after 1851. Other than Quinion saying it was written in 1850, without citing any source that can be checked, I have not seen any references to the song by that name prior to 1852. And none is cited in the article. I see no support for the claim in the first place, so it should be removed from the article. Svaihingen (talk) 02:57, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You make a great case for not assuming that the date on the sheet music is accurate (I was going by institutional cataloging), so clearly that is not a reliable source for Wikipedia. The problem is that you are trying to use original research (not allowed by Wikipedia) to fact check secondary sources that appear to meet Wikipedia's standards. Because there are two sources cited in the article that state Miller and Beacham were the first to publish this song, that is how the article was written. If you can find a a credible secondary source to back your position that someone else was first to publish and/or the music was first published in England, then that content can be added to this article. In the meantime, I have no problem changing from the specific date of 1850 to the generic "early 1850s", since that is the approach Albert Jack took. I can make that change. Rublamb (talk) 03:44, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with leading off with the comment about the first known publication pairing the tune with the name is that it can mislead the reader to thinking that the song originated in the US. All of the earliest references to the name, dance and references to the tune (if not published sheet music notation) all come from England - and it was referred to and versions published later in the US. Early references to published versions of the song can be found in the British Newspaper archive as early as January 1853, weeks after it was famously danced at a party attended by Queen Victoria. The article as it stands now also refers to 1853 sheet music published in England. There is no indication that the Baltimore printing was earlier. Even if it were the earliest example showing the name and tune, given that it was already popular in England, it seems a stretch to suggest it was originated in the US. Svaihingen (talk) 20:22, 18 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As well, music from operas The Rose of Castile, La Traviata and Il Trovatore are also listed on this 'How Can I Leave Thee' music sheet. The first premiered in 1857 and the latter two in 1853. Robw49 (talk) 03:49, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Displayed tune is incorrect

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As I know the tune (since I was a child) and indeed even as it was whistled by Riker in the episode of ST-TNG quoted in the article, the third note from the end as shown in the sheet music should be an F not a D. That is to say the last three notes descend in order. Searching various midi files on the internet which unfortunately I may not link to as they do not seem to be in the public domain, this seems to be borne out by how everyone else who knows the tune expects it to sound too. In other words, the sheet music is wrong. A public domain midi or ogg version of the song would be useful is someone has the resources to create and/or host. Aethandor (talk) 09:42, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As I was reviewing sources, I found that this original version of the music was a variance of an old song. Also that it changed over time. I don't read music, but is it possible the sheet music shown (which is historic) is just a variant. Or is it completely out of tune with those different notes. Rublamb (talk) 20:22, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In fact as I look more closely at the tune, the fourth note (D) should be an F, the the twelth note (D) should be an F, the fourth note on the second line (D) should be an F, plus the third note fro the end as previously mentioned. The tune portrayed by the music notation shown is therefore very incorrect. I move that the sheet music should therefore be removed, and replaced as soon as possible with an example that is correct in one of many forms (sheet music, ogg, midi, wav) Aethandor (talk) 09:55, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't read music, so I can't vouch for the exact pitch of the notes, but I can sing along with it if I know the tune, and it looks like the staff is missing a note. There should be a note, a step or two below middle C, between the eighth and ninth notes shown (by count, I mean, not "eighth note"). And in fact there's a little gap there where that note should be. Basically, it's missing a "the": "All a-round the co-obb-ler's bench [the] mon-key chased the wea-sel." Unless they are intending the little dot on note # 8 to mean that "bench" and "the" are sung together, but I don't think that's correct. "The" should drop a note or two down, to an "A" or whatever. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 11:21, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I know what you mean. I have created a new image file with a slightly different version of the tune, incorporating the first change I suggested here but not the later ones and have used it to replace the original image. I suspect that the tune varies slightly depending upon the person singing it and which verse is being sung. I have created a couple of midi files sounding the melody in the original listed form plus the two versions I have suggested, and if I can find a location to store them online and link to them I'm place them in the public domain and link to them here so it can be possible to hear the tune being played.Aethandor (talk) 14:08, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You're still missing that A or whatever, between notes 8 and 9. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 17:26, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I know what you mean now, it's actually a 'C' but I left it out because it's an extra note which is sung to make the syllables of the lyrics fit the tune for that verse, but it doesn't apply for every verse. If you have a listen to the midi file which I've linked to, does it sound correct to you ? The midi file plays the tune as shown in the image file of the sheet music.
By way of comparison, the tune as it would sound if one were to play the music as written in the previous image would sound as http://hansolo.f-sw.com/midi_pd/popgoesweasel_written.mid. Aethandor (talk) 20:16, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image:Pop Goes the Weasel melody.PNG is sourced but has no fair-use rationale for Pop Goes the Weasel. Hyacinth (talk) 23:37, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I remember a different melody for the verse which starts "Up and down the City Road." It's a higher melody starting on the C above middle C, and is missing from both the displayed tune and the sound clip. Difrankel (talk) 18:16, 7 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mulberry bush

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Presumably the versions in which the cobbler's bench is replaced by the mulberry bush are due to cross-contamination with Here We Go Round the Mulberry Bush? —Hieronymus Illinensis (talk) 22:44, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think that is probably correct. I will have a look for a reliable source so that it can go into the article.--SabreBD (talk) 23:18, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This has probably been covered by Iona and Peter Opie, and I'll try to dig out my copy of "Lore and Language of Schoolchildren" tomorrow. Rodhullandemu 23:22, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The (UK) 2nd verse I knew as a child was

Round and round the Mulberry Bush,
In and out the Eagle,
That's the way the money goes,
Pop! goes the weasel.

And I was told it related to 2 pubs near Fleet Street and the profligacy of the local journalists. A nice story for which I know no referents, sadly, although it might fit better with the 'City Road' verse.

Sorry, more amusement value than actual use. ;) --94.212.2.245 (talk) 09:34, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The connection to "Here we go round" was in the article, but unsourced. I didn not find a valid reference online, so removed it pending a source.Rublamb (talk) 05:45, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Irish version

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I just added the version I learned as a child in Ireland:

I went into a tailor's shop;
I picked up a needle;
the tailor came out
and gave me a clout.
Pop! goes the weasel.

Sorry I have no citation to support it, so someone may delete it, but at least it is interesting because the scene is set in the tailor's shop, complete with needle and weasel. Another thing: I was taught a version where the first four notes were the same. I notice that in the here, the first two notes are the same, and the following two notes are above them. Interesting. --71.208.51.129 (talk) 19:53, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nancy Dawson

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The tune to Nancy Dawson, from the mid 1700's, is often quoted as being the tune leading to Pop Goes the Weasel. Of course, no music is original so who knows where that was ripped off from.

Is there a source for this? I could only find it on blogs? Rublamb (talk) 21:44, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

MikePCAP

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I have collected a lot of information about and studied these lyrics for well over 5 years now. The following is 3/4 pure results of my research, and 1/4 logical deduction and fully open to input and comment, Please:

One relatively recent form of the lyrics (believed to be from the 1850's) go as follows:

Half a pound of tuppenny rice, Half a pound of treacle. Mix it up and make it nice, Pop! goes the weasel.

A penny for a spool of thread, A penny for a needle­ That's the way the money goes, Pop! goes the weasel.

Up and down the City Road, In and out the Eagle, That's the way the money goes, Pop! goes the weasel.

One common explanation of the meaning invokes the use of cockney slang claiming that "pop goes the weasel" refers to "pawning one's coat ("weasel" -> "weasel and stoat" -> nowadays means "coat"))"

However, I believe the meaning is somewhat different, yet still cockney slang. "Pop", in this case probably simply means "pop" (as in "oops, it's all gone... shot, blown". Rather than "COAT", however, I believe that one meaning for the cockney slang for "weasel" in older days (sorry no specific reference available as yet - still searching) referred to a denomination of money (as a great many cockney slang, especially those referring to animals, did then and still do to this day) and actually refers to the, now obsolete, currency the "GROAT". By the way "monkey" used in other verses of the song is coincidentally current cockney slang for a 500 pound note (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_slang) ... coincidence? The original English "groat" was a silver coin worth roughly 4 pence originally (and various other values later as it was depreciated). I am, among other things an avid collector of old coinage.

If you add up the values mentioned in the first two versus of this commonly published version of the song you come out with a total of 4 pennies which amazingly enough, equals 1 groat for the first two verses. In the era of tupenny rice (meaning rice selling for 2 pennies per pound, or 1 penny per 1/2 pound) 1/2 lb of treacle (a sugary syrup) also generally sold for a penny, as I researched. Note (importantly): the lyrics do NOT say, "that's the way the money goes" after the FIRST verse, only after the second. Therefore these two versus were meant to go together (versus the third verse, which DOES say "that's the way the money goes" and explained further below)

The groat was originally created in the 1300's as a silver coin worth 4 pennies. It was abandoned in the mid-1600's. However... it was newly reissued in 1835 and used as late as 1890 (according to Brewer's 1870 Dictionary of Phrase and Fable - late 1800s revised edition - "the modern groat was introduced in 1835, and withdrawn in 1887" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewer%27s_Dictionary_of_Phrase_and_Fable).

Cockney slang is generally believed to have originated in the 1840's shortly before the reported origin of the above referenced version of the song. The groat at that time had just recently been revived in 1835, thus logically being still quite popular in the current vernacular. It all logically fits! In this context, the coat-pawning, based on today's contemporary slang is arguably logically more of a reach than this explanation.

The additional "Eagle" verse (if truly used at the same time) seems to fit quite nicely as referring to spending ones money as well, in a different way. If you look at the words again closely, with respect to the the above information it all fits perfectly as a commentary that you can either spend your money responsibly "eating modestly and maintaining ones clothing appearance" or "blowing ones earnings solely at the Eagle" (and starving as a shoddy bum). Either way it's all gone.

Based purely on my own personal reading of the various verse origins data, I would strongly suggest that the Eagle verse was an independent satirical, parody stage performance version with modified lyrics of the then popular tune, much like a modern day "Weird Al" spoof. These were quite common then as well.

I can provide more citations concerning prices, dates, etc. Or they may be left as an exercise for the page manager and reader.

Cheers! 

 Mike M.

MikePCAP (talk) 10:49, 5 February 2012 (UTC)mikepcap[reply]

Treacle is delicious??? Wulfy95113 (talk) 06:32, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

An independent reference

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OK - it's original research, but what about truth! I refer you to

http://collections.mun.ca/cdm4/print_doc.php?CISOROOT=/broadside&CISOPTR=266&DMSCALE=14.14761&DMWIDTH=600&DMHEIGHT=600&DMMODE=viewer&DMTEXT=&REC=2&DMTHUMB=1&DMROTATE=0

Which is an 1854 Broadside ballad entitled 'Down By The Dark Arches' [under the railway]. Observe verse 5 in which the narrator is assaulted by a ruffian 'with black eye and stick' who precedes the attack by announcing 'Pop goes the Weasel'. This surely indicates the phrase was understood at that time to presage violence (with a stick?) Perhaps the Weasel was the stick? and the 'Pop' was what it did to your head?

Or more generally perhaps 'an explosion of activity'? (weasels being very active creatures).

109.144.254.80 (talk) 21:51, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Weasel

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All,

My family are Londoners back to the 1840s and seem quite attentive to family traditions (i.e., they are actively interested in things like the meaning of this song). No guarantee of anything, obviously, but anyway I asked my folks what "the weasel" was. They said it is what the rent money was called in their family, stretching back as far as anyone could remember. So they presumed that was what the song was talking about. Seems to fit with the theme of money being spent as quick as you have it - some cheap rice, some treacle, waste some money down the pub, pop goes the weasel.

Cheers

Mike Knights — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.195.24.98 (talk) 17:56, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

List of early publications

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  • 1852-12-18: Jullien and Co. "Pop goes the weasel: the new dance, recently introduced with such distinguished success at the Court balls and at the balls and soirees of the nobility, is now published with the original music and a full explanation of the figures, by Mons. E. Coulon. Advertisement in The Times, 1852-12-28. Probably the same as "Original Music arranged by George Thompson" (see advertiment Banbury Guardian 1853-02-03 p. 3). This US edition explicitly claims to have Thompson's music.
  • 1852-XX-XX: Two favorite dances, "Pop goes the Weasel" and "Le Tempête" arranged for the Piano Forte by H. Rosenmüller. Henri Rosenmüller London, [1852]. British Library catalog
  • 1853-03-16: W. H. Montgomery: Pop Goes the Weasel Polka. London: D'Almaine & Co. Advertisement in the Aberdeen Journal, 1853-03-16. Also in Dundee courier 1853-02-23. British Library
  • 1853-03-04: Davidson's Musical Treasury. "Pop goes the weasel, with an accurate description of the figures, and seven other country dances". Advertisemenet in The Times, 1853-03-04. Perhaps similar to this, although it has "32 popular country dances".
  • 1853-03-30. POP GOES THE WEASEL, La Tempête, and Grand Pére, the three fashionable Dances, with accurate description of the figures. price 3d. ... published exclusively in the MUSICAL BOUQUET. Taunton Courier, 1853-03-30
  • 1853-08-24: A. Simpson: Pop Goes The Weasel and Thirty Popular Country Dances, for the Pianoforte, with descriptions of the figure. Advertised in The Dundee Courier 1853-08-24.
  • 1853-08-27: T. C. Andrews, Philadelphia. "with a description of the figures by Coulon". Advertised in Philadelphia Public Ledge, 1853-08-27. Perhaps this?
  • 1853-10-01: H. Marsh & Co., Sydney, Australia. "Will be published in a few days". Sydney Morning Herald, 1853-09-02. Advertised as available 1853-10-01.
  • 1853-09-07: Charles and William Horn, London: "Comic Song. The Words by Charles Sloman Esq. Arranged by T. Berry.". The Era (London), 1853-09-07.
  • 1853-10-09: John Symonds, Cowes: Arranged for concertina. Isle of Wight Observer, 1853-10-09
  • 1853-10-29: Pop Goes The Weasel, as performed at Mr. Hlasko's Academy, Richmond Dispatch, 1853-10-29
  • 1853-11-12: Pop Goes the Weasel Polka , Ballak??. Buffalo Commercial, 1853-11-12
  • 1853-11-14: Pop Goes the Weasel, with Variations, Blumsal. Buffalo Commercial, 1853-11-14.
  • 1853-11-14: Pop Goes the Weasel, "Celebrated English Dance". Buffalo Commercial, 1853-11-14.
  • 1853-XX-XX. Porter, Philadelphia. "With a full description of the Figures as Danced at Mr. Sheldon's Academy".
  • 1853-XX-XX: Pop goes the Weasel and La Tempête. Two favorite dances, arranged for the Piano Forte.London, [1853]. British Library catalog
  • 1853-XX-XX: New country dances, Pop goes the weasel, and ... La tempête ... arranged for the Piano Forte. Adolphe Schubert London, [1853]. British Library catalog
  • 1853-XX-XX New Country dances, Popping the question, Haste to the wedding & Pop goes the weasel. Arranged for the Piano Forte. Adolphe Schubert British Library catalog
  • 1853-XX-XX: Pop goes the weasel ... with a full description of the figures by E. Coulon, and the original music arranged by G. Thompson. George Thompson London, [1853]. British Library catalog

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Grover cleveland (talk • contribs) 19:10, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

Removed info

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A contributor removed info from « Pop recordings » section because it was unsourced and decided it was trivial. I've moved these here to preserve the work in the hope someone will want to source the more important ones (ie by major artists or chart success) and include it again.

  • Lords of Acid parodied the song, replacing "tuppenny rice" with "heroin", in the song "Out Comes the Evil".
  • The tune is also used in the video game Five Nights at Freddy's 2 where once a music box stops playing, a version similar to the one used in jack-in-the-boxes plays before the Puppet jumpscares the player.

JeanPaulGRingault (talk) 11:25, 3 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

More pop culture content needed sources to be reinserted in the article:
  • The 1989 film, A Day at Camp, has this song sung around the campfire by The Kidsongs Kids and their counsellors, Chris, Debbie and Eddie.
  • The early 90s film, Barney in Concert, features this song.
  • It is from the "Jungle" episode of Face's Music Party.
  • In the 1996 film The Long Kiss Goodnight, the character Mitch Henessey, says, "No. I sock them in the jaw and yell, 'Pop goes the weasel'" when answering a question about defloration.
  • In the BBC comedy panel show I'm_Sorry_I_Haven't_a_Clue, comedian Tony Hawks was asked to give a response to the spoken line "half a pound of tuppenny rice, half a pound of treacle," and got a good audience response with "OK, who ordered the treacle biryani?"
  • The 2009 video game Plants vs. Zombies features a zombie carrying an explosive jack-in-the-box with the tune of "Pop Goes The Weasel."
  • In 1996 the game Perfection release a new commercial jingle, "Pop Goes Perfection", to the tune of "Pop Goes the Weasel" with the following lyrics: "Put the pieces into the slot" "make the right selection" "but be QUICK! You're racing the clock" "POW! Pop goes Perfection!" "This piece here and that piece there" "Put those pieces EVERYWHERE!" "But be quick, or beware" "POW! Pop goes Perfection!
  • In video game Five Nights at Freddy's 2, the music box will play "Pop! Goes the Weasel" when the Puppet is about to attack player after leaving the Music Box unwind.

Rublamb (talk) 19:44, 16 December 2022 (UTC) Rublamb (talk) 16:21, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Canadian variant

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I removed the following from the article because it lacks a source:

A standard modern Canadian version goes: "All around the Cottage about, the monkey chased the weasel, the monkey thought it was all a big/good joke, Pop! Goes the weasel." Rublamb (talk) 17:15, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Weasels spray

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Like a skunk, when threatened, weasels will emit a foul smelling spray. 'The monkey thought [the chase] was all in fun; Pop goes the weasel!' 184.151.37.20 (talk) 21:53, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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