Talk:Political career of John C. Breckinridge/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Ealdgyth (talk · contribs) 15:03, 8 April 2013 (UTC) I'll be reviewing this article shortly. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:03, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   Lots of spots where the prose needs work.

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

• General:
  • Duplicate links - do you have the script to check for those? You've got a few ...
    • Fixed. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
• IMages: File:John C. Breckinridge statue Lexington KY.jpg I'm unclear on the status of photographs of statues in the US - do we need to know the copyright status of the statue as well as the actual photograph?
  • Probably. I'll have to look it up, but I'm pretty sure the statue was first publicly displayed in the late 19th century. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
  • OK, sourced the date (1887) and took my best shot at making sure the licensing was right. Please double check that. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 19:22, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
• Lead:
  • "...in over twenty years." I believe it should be "in over 20 years." per the MOS.
    • Done. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
  • run-in links "he was one of three candidates opposing Republican Abraham Lincoln." perhaps try "he was one of three candidates opposing Abraham Lincoln, a Republican."
    • How about "the Republican candidate, Abraham Lincoln", as I have it now? Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
  • I think "southern states" rather than "Southern States".
    • Actually, per the comments from Wehwalt, I think I tried to go with "Southern states", where "Southern" is capitalized because it refers to the South as a region. Changed. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
  • "After the firing on Fort Sumter, he opposed allocating resources..." awkward, can we reword?
    • Better now? Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
  • "he fled behind Confederate battle lines and joined" odd phrasing for modern writing - suggest "he fled to the south and joined..."
    • Really? I didn't really think it was all that odd. Plus, "fled south" isn't really accurate. He fled east, then back west, and ended up only a little south (relatively speaking) from where he started. Bowling Green is more west by southwest of Lexington. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
      • Then perhaps "he fled to the Confederacy and joined"? Ealdgyth - Talk 23:34, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
        • I suppose that will work, since the details are in the article body. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:43, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
  • "he encouraged Davis to effect a national surrender" very Victorian phrasing - suggest "he encouraged Davis to surrender"
    • I guess using "effect" as a verb is a little antiquated, but it's not accurate to say he encouraged Davis to surrender. He wanted the Confederacy to surrender, but Davis personally planned to flee for his life unless he got a guarantee of amnesty, I think. Davis was potentially facing capital punishment for treason. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
      • Try another verb besides "effect"? Ealdgyth - Talk 23:34, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
        • Done. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:43, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
• Formative years ... (oh, look .. its Cabell again! So nice to meet old friends...)

I forgot that you did the GA review for Cabell, too. The Breckinridges are an interesting lot. If I ever finish John C., I may do some work on his nephew, William Campbell Preston Breckinridge, next. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

• • Shouldn't we have a "Main article" link here - to Breckenridge's main article? I think Template:Details may work...
    • Having never done a biographical sub-article before, I wasn't sure where I should link the main article, but this works as well as any. Done. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
  • "John Breckinridge believed the federal government..." which John Breckenridge?
    • I've tried to consistently use "John Breckinridge" for the elder (I've never seen a middle name or initial for him) and "John C. Breckinridge" for the younger. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
  • "As a state representative, he introduced the Kentucky Resolutions of 1798 and 1799, denouncing the Alien and Sedition Acts and asserting that states could nullify them and other federal..." you've switched tenses here .. pick on and stick with it.
    • Done. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
  • "His brother-in-law wrote that, upon ..." which brother-in-law?
    • I assume you mean Bullock's or Breckinridge's. Clarified. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
• Early influences:
  • Suggest a tie to a section of his main article here...
    • Via a seealso template? Would that be considered overlinking, since we just linked the entire main article above? Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
      • I'd tie to a specific section of the main article. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:34, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
        • Done. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:43, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
• Later views:
  • "he lost to Constitutional Unionist John Bell, who owned" ... link run on here .. suggest "he lost to the Constitutional Unionist candidate John Bell, who owned..."
    • Done. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
  • "Bell and Illinois' Stephen Douglas exceeded"... run on again ... suggest just dropping "Illinois'"
    • Changed to "Illinois Senator Stephen Douglas". Since the details of the nominations and election are later in the article, it gives some sense of who the candidate was. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
  • "was the most extreme to which the South would agree" most extreme what?
    • I intended this to refer back to "proposal", but that kind of gets lost with the dashes, so I added it again here. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
• Early political career:
  • "running for Scott County clerk of after" clerk of what?
    • There is an actual office called "county clerk", but I can't add "county" again here because of redundancy. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
  • "Initially supportive of Zachary Taylor for the presidency, he endorsed the Democratic ticket of Lewis Cass and William O. Butler after Taylor became a Whig." can we have a few dates in here to help anchor things chronologically?
    • Done. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
• Kentucky House of Representatives:
  • need a cite on "impairing [slavery protections] in any form" quotation
    • It belongs to one of the two footnotes at the end of that sentence, although without either source in front of me, I can't say which. Typically, I try to keep all cites at the end of a sentence. Does this require breaking that convention to keep the footnote adjacent to the quote? Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
      • Yeah, you do need it here because it's a reasonably long way away from the cite. Quotes need cites within a word or two of them ending, whether or not that's the end of the sentence. It's the one big thing about citations for GA - Ealdgyth - Talk 23:34, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
        • Done. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:43, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
  • "Speaker" .. linkage?
    • It's just a redirect to "Kentucky House of Representatives". Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
  • "Davis wrote that his most important work during the session was bank reform." this jars with the previous sentence... can we get a bit better linkage/transition?
    • The unfortunate thing is, although Davis makes the assertion, he gives no context or details, so this seems to stick out no matter where I put it. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
      • Blargh. Does nothing else tie into the previous bits? Ealdgyth - Talk 23:34, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
        • About the committees and his floor leadership? Not really, except his work on the Federal Relations Committee wrt the Compromise of 1850, but moving this up breaks the section's chronology. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:43, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
  • linkage for any of these - (minus the river which is linked) "geologic survey, making the Kentucky River more navigable, chartering a turnpike, incorporating a steamboat company, and funding the Kentucky Lunatic Asylum"?
    • Are you looking for links to the specific survey, turnpike, steamboat company, and asylum? None of those articles exist, and the source isn't even specific about which turnpike or which steamboat company. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
      • Actually, I was thinking the generic items - not all folks know what a turnpike is anymore... and I'd think the lunatic asylum would merit an article... (you could always try to convince Malleus to flesh it out...) Ealdgyth - Talk 23:34, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
        • Linked "turnpike" and learned that the Kentucky Lunatic Asylum eventually became known as Eastern State Hospital, so I've linked that. Are asylums an interest of Malleus'? I'm only vaguely familiar with his work, although I generally have a favorable impression. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:43, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
  • "The committee's Whig majority favored one calling the compromise a ..." one what?
    • A resolution. Several competing ones were on the table, as noted in the previous sentence. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
• First term:
  • "no Democrat made the race." Very odd phrasing - suggest rewording.
    • Better now? Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
  • "Despite this, after Boyd's election, he assigned Breckinridge.." it's slightly unclear who "he" is referring to here.
    • Really? The only alternative interpretation would be that Breckinridge assigned himself to a lightly-regarded committee, which doesn't make much sense. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
      • It was to me on my only slightly sinus pill impaired reading... .Ealdgyth - Talk 23:34, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
        • Better now? Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:43, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
  • "Like Young America, Breckinridge favored westward expansion and free trade.." Did you mean "Like Young Americans, Breckinridge favored westward expansion and free trade"?
    • Well, I was really referring to the movement itself, which was known as "Young America". I'm not sure if "Young Americans" was used as a moniker for the movement's adherents or not. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
      • It really reads oddly as it is. I suggest figuring out if "Young American" would apply as it jars badly as written. The reader is expecting an adjectival bit and gets a noun. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:34, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
        • Found at least one credible reference to adherents as "Young Americans". Changed. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 19:22, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
  • "..aspirant William Butler against charges by Florida's Edward Carrington Cabell, a Young American and distant cousin, that he secretly sympathized with the Free Soilers." tangled up here - that last "he secretly" phrase isn't quite clear who "he" means
    • Yes; fixed. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
  • "The speech made Breckinridge a target of Whigs, Young America, and Douglas supporters.." I think you mean "Young Americans" again here
    • Again, I was referring to the movement. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
      • As above. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:34, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
  • "...a Kentucky Whig who supported incumbent Millard Fillmore, attacked Breckinridge..." incumbent of what?
    • Incumbent president. Clarified. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Not sure what "but Breckinridge showed that Douglas endorsed the Democratic Review a month after it printed its first anti-Butler article" has to do with anything, I'm missing context, I suspect.
    • Richardson was trying to put distance between Douglas and Sanders' anti-Butler articles in the Democratic Review, but Breckinridge showed that Douglas actually endorsed the Democratic Review after its first article denouncing Butler. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
      • Can we get this into the article? Ealdgyth - Talk 23:34, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
        • Tried to clarify. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 19:22, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
  • "because the sculptor proposed depicting Washington in a toga." didn't this statue get funded anyway? Would be a great explanatory footnote ...
    • You know, I'm not actually sure. Davis – the only source I presently have in front of me – says he was opposed to "any more" sculptures depicting Washington in a toga, so apparently, there were several such sculptures, and without knowing the proposed sculptor, it would be difficult to say whether the specific one he opposed was actually completed. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
      • I know there is at least one such sculpture ... I've seen it. (It's pretty horrid, honestly - very ... odd and jarring!) Ealdgyth - Talk 23:34, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
        • I would imagine so, but without knowing if this is the one referenced, is it problematic to leave this open-ended? Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 19:22, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
  • "when the legislature rose in April"... huh?
    • I assumed this was common usage. It means they adjourned their session. Reworded. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
  • "increasing a subsidy to Collins Line for carrying" I think it should be "increasing a subsidy to the Collins Line for carrying" to make it clear it's not a person.
    • Seems like the sources were consistently omitting "the", but our wiki-article says "the" was commonly included, so I've added it here. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
  • "Finally, he showed Cornelius Vanderbilt's statement promising to build a fleet of mail ships at his expense and carry the mail for $4 million less than Collins" ... awkward - suggest "Finally, he mentioned Cornelius Vanderbilt's statement promising to build a fleet of mail ships at his expense and carry the mail for $4 million less than Collins."
    • If I read your comment correctly, I think the confusion comes from the fact that I hadn't explicitly mentioned that it was a written statement. I've rectified that. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
• Second term:
  • "to recruit Douglas to his cause" --- Breckenridges or Pierce's cause?
    • They were kind of one in the same at that point, but I've clarified. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
• Election:
  • "included contributions from Collins Line" ... need a "the" before "collins" again
    • Done. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
• Service:
  • "Southerners thwarted his previous attempts" need a "had" before "thwarted"
    • Done. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
  • "To his uncle Robert, he wrote that he..." "his" and "he" are unclear here as the last person mentioned was Pierce.
    • Good catch. Fixed. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Need a cite on the quote "had more to do than any man here, in putting [the Act] in its present shape"
    • It's the same one that is used for the sentence as a whole. Is it necessary to repeat it twice in the same sentence? Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
      • IF the quote is more than a word or so removed from the cite, yes. Quotes need cites ON them, not at the end of the sentence. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:34, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
        • Done. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 19:22, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
• Retirement:
  • "nativist" - linkage?
    • Good suggestion. Done. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
  • "December, U.S. Minister to Spain Pierre Soulé resigned" back to back linkage - need to try to separate them.
    • Done. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
  • "Pierce told Breckinridge of his nomination to fill the vacancy just before the Senate's January" does this mean that Pierce nominated Breckenridge? Its unclear..
    • Yes. Clarified. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
• US Vice President:
  • "and his enemy, Linn Boyd" ... but I thought Breckenridge had supported Boyd before?
    • Not really. He deferred to him in the Speaker's race, and after he got snubbed (twice) by Boyd on committee assignments, the sources say they became factional enemies, although any conflict between them other than electoral contests go unmentioned. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
      • I guess my point is that the reader doesn't know why Boyd's an enemy - there isn't any development of why this is so. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:34, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
        • Yeah, as a reader of both Heck and Davis' biographies, I'm not either. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 19:22, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
• Election:
  • Really don't need to attribute "Heck wrote that the election was between Buchanan and Republican... " to Heck - it's a pretty common belief as I recall from my various US history classes.
    • I always try to cite observations like this in case there is competing scholarship on the subject. If you're sure there isn't on this point, I'll remove it. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
      • Trust me, I learned this in Jr. High U.S. History - if I can learn it there, it's common scholarship! Ealdgyth - Talk 23:34, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
        • OK, done. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 19:22, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
• Service:
  • inflation for "pensions to $50 per month"...
    • What's the template for this? I always forget. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
      • I think Template:Inflation? Ealdgyth - Talk 23:34, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
        • Done. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 19:22, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
  • "fourth defeated Johnson's Homestead Bill" which Johnson? Do we have a link for the bill?
    • Both Johnson and the bill are first mentioned and linked in the fourth paragraph under "First term". The bill kept getting defeated and Johnson kept re-introducing it. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
  • "more commodious one" ... very Victorian phrasing, suggest rewording.
    • Guess I was just feeling Victorian when I wrote this article! :) Changed to "spacious". Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
• Nomination:
  • "Breckinridge, but he wrote to Beck" ... who is meant by "he" here?
    • Breckinridge. Fixed. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
  • "On June 23, Massachusetts' George B. Loring nominated..." was this at the "National Democratic Convention"? It's unclear.
    • Yes. Clarified. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
• Election:
  • Again, no need to attribute to a specific historican "Harrison characterized the race as "Lincoln against Douglas in the north; Breckinridge against Bell in the south"." .. this is pretty common historical consensus as I understand it.
    • Same comment as above. If we're pretty sure there is no competing scholarship, I'll drop it. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
      • Yep, learned this in Jr High too! Ealdgyth - Talk 23:34, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
        • Done. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 19:22, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
• U. S. Senate:
  • Can we get a better heading here? It implies that it covers his entire Senate career but that's not the case
    • Yes, really it does, unless you count his service as vice president as part of his Senate career. He was elected in December 1859, but his predecessor's term did not expire until 1861. His term as vice president expired the same day his term as a senator began – March 4, 1861. He served until either his resignation in his October 8 letter or his expulsion on December 2, whichever you regard as valid. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
  • "reminded the solons that Congress had not approved" - solons??? huh?
    • Another old-style term that I see a lot in the sources. Keeps me from having to repeat "legislators" so often. Do you think it's too problematic to leave? Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
      • I doubt anyone but me would understand the reference quite honestly. You're falling into the same problem I have - you read so much of a particular type of source that you start adopting the phrasing of them... academic phrasing isn't always the best choice for a general readership encyclopedia. Reword it - no one is going to get the phrase (which traces, by the way, to the ancient Athenian lawgiver Solon... very typical that a Victorian writer would use it but well out of common usage nowadays.) Ealdgyth - Talk 23:34, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
        • Changed. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 19:22, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
• Confederate Secretary of War:
  • why list all the offices held by the confederates, but omit the military title for Sherman?
    • Lack of confidence in my understanding of military rank. Often, I see "General" but then I understand that can be "brigadier general", "major general", "lieutenant general", or full-fledged "general". Didn't know off-hand which Sherman was, and the source didn't say, so I left it out. All that said, I now see that Sherman's is an FA, and it has the dates of his promotions given, so I can accurately determine that his rank at the time was "major general". Added. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Again a lack of rank for "forces under Andrew K. Campbell"...
    • Same issue. The article on Campbell has a "citation needed" tag on his promotion to lieutenant colonel. If correct, I suppose that would have been his rank at the time. I'll assume good faith and add that. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

I've put the article on hold for seven days to allow folks to address the issues I've brought up. Feel free to contact me on my talk page, or here with any concerns, and let me know one of those places when the issues have been addressed. If I may suggest that you strike out, check mark, or otherwise mark the items I've detailed, that will make it possible for me to see what's been addressed, and you can keep track of what's been done and what still needs to be worked on. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:10, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

I struck the items where I'm pretty sure I address the concern satisfactorily. I left some others pending your feedback. If they are to your satisfaction, go ahead and strike them if you want. A few will almost certainly merit some further discussion. Thanks for the quick and thorough review. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Struck some more and have a few replies on a few more. Suggest, as usual, getting someone else to copyedit for FAC as I'm only sorta good at it. I can pick apart the context with the best of them though! Ealdgyth - Talk 23:34, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Okay, basically those changes look good. Just waiting on the statue/photograph issue for GA... Ealdgyth - Talk 13:59, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Addressed that and the other comments I didn't get to before. Hope it's all kosher now. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 19:22, 12 April 2013 (UTC)