Talk:Plague doctor

A fact from Plague doctor appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 31 October 2010 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Giovanni de Ventura, a plague doctor who may have worn a beak doctor costume (pictured), was restricted by a covenant to treat only infectious patients?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2010/October.

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Famous Plague Doctors

I've removed some information about Nostradamus that seems to have been directly quoted from the tabloid article cited. The article it's self had no sources or even cites an author. I know he was around in the time of the plague and his work as a doctor has been overstated in various places. I'm not to certain about his role in finding remedies for the plague; He may have had some and I'd like to see them but I rather not see his name followed by claims made by from an unsourced tabloid.

I have a feeling that others on this list need to be looked into a bit more as well. (Soimless (talk) 08:09, 21 March 2011 (UTC))[reply]

Reworded and reentered Nostradamus information. It is referenced. Rather the reference is true or not may be another issue, however it is properly referenced.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 12:48, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I recently watched a History Channel episode, which dealt extensively with Nostradamus' work as a plague doctor.Feran (talk) 14:13, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Excessively generalised statement

I don't dispute that the content reinstated in this edit is referenced. It does, however, introduce a huge sweeping statement into the article. Are we really saying that all plague doctors gave exactly the same advice to all of their patients? Such a proposition is absurd. Perhaps it could be changed with something like 'Plague doctors also gave spiritual advice to their patients', or something similar. NotFromUtrecht (talk) 21:55, 15 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The reference does NOT say anything about 'Plague doctors also gave spiritual advice to their patients'. Do you have a reference for this? Sounds like something made up or original research. I'm just going with the reference. Do you dispute the reference? Keep in mind, we are not necessarily going for the truth - but for referenced material. I have no idea what the exact truth is.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 22:26, 15 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia's goal is not to present the truth about each topic but to present what is thought about each topic, giving greatest weight to the most widely held opinions.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 22:47, 15 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Your statements of Are we really saying that all plague doctors gave exactly the same advice to all of their patients? and Plague doctors also gave spiritual advice to their patients produces new knowledge, which is the exact meaning of original research. It MUST be referenced material if disputed - and I dispute your statements. Any references to cover what you are saying? I don't believe I said anything about "all plague doctors" - you apparently developed new knowledge here, which is original research. Please reference your material.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 22:59, 15 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The exact wording for the lede material of The chances of survival in times of a plague epidemic were slim is "The chances of survival of a plague doctor during an epidemic were not high..." - reference: Miskimin, p. 68.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 23:14, 15 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I'll concede the point that the source does not mention spirituality. How about: 'Plague doctors also gave advice to their patients about their conduct before death'? That would seem to follow what the source says more closely, but avoids interpreting it in an excessively literal way. My main point is that the sentence as it currently stands in the article makes an excessively generalised statement by essentially reproducing a sentence from the source out of context. Suggesting that plague doctors always told their patients to think about silver and gold is ridiculous –- the sentence does not use the word 'all', but it also makes no attempt not qualify that remark. We could qualify the statement by adding the word 'some', but I think a more general rewording would be in order. I can and will cite another reliable source which makes a slightly different point about the advice that plague doctors gave to patients, showing that it covered a broader range of topics. NotFromUtrecht (talk) 08:26, 16 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have updated the article (in this edit) in accordance with my statements above. NotFromUtrecht (talk) 08:54, 16 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Those improvements and additional references look good to me. Thanks for improving the article.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 10:54, 16 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nostradamus advice

On page vii it talks of Nostradamus advice of removing infected corpses, getting fresh air, drinking clean water, drinking a juice preparation containing high amounts of Vitaman C and NOT bleeding the patient. Perhaps you can edit in those items of Nostradamus' advice in your words.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 15:20, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Is that a reliable source though? The relevant guidelines say that articles should be based on 'reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy'. The book you've linked to does not even name the author, and is published by a publisher which does not have an established reputation. However, I'll see if I can find some better biographical material on Nostradamus. NotFromUtrecht (talk) 15:32, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I went ahead and entered this material of Nostradamus' advice with references since you didn't do it. I knowtice the author Pickover has 6,000 other books - so if you doubt this author I have come across this same information from many other authors and can provide those as well.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 21:59, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

who are you 136.158.10.224 (talk) 10:12, 15 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I also added back in his advice of NOT "bleeding" the patient. If you type in NOT bleeding his patients Nostradamus into Google you get about a million sites that show this. You mentioned that you were going to find biographical information on Nostradamus, however I don't think this is necessary as the article is about "plague doctors", NOT Nostradamus.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 22:29, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed you questioned if the source I provided was reliable and that it didn't provide an author. The author seems to be Michel de Nostredame under "About the Author". And like I say the information seems to be backed up by a million sites and some 30,000 other authors. Will that work for you?--Doug Coldwell ^talk 22:58, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

FYI, there seems to be many references to during Nostradamus' lifetime the Black Death (today known as the bubonic plague) wiped out over a quarter of Europe. Apparently the "Black Death" is referred to today as the "bubonic plague" and Nostradamus was a doctor treating those of the bubonic plague. So it looks like to me that the words "Black Death" and "bubonic plague" refer to the same thing. So, the "bubonic plague" during Nostradamus' lifetime we can call the Black Death - interchangable.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 23:09, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed you questioned the publisher. The publisher is Forgotten Books. They publish and reprint classical literature and old books that have long been out of print. They are partners of Amazon.com and Google Books. They have thousands of books online that you can download free. Here is their Browse list. Looks like a good publisher to me. Did you look into this before you spoke up? Here is a list of over 10,000 of their books. Or perhaps you are questioning the reliability of The Prophecies of Nostradamus By Nostradamus. Of course, you can always look this up in WorldCat and find some 200 other books worldwide that you can get free from your local library (whereever you are at, perhaps Europe?) that will verify the reliable of The Prophecies of Nostradamus By Nostradamus. Maybe you don't trust the author Michel de Nostredame? I can understand that since he did write it up in 1555. Perhaps these modern authors have a better handle on it. --Doug Coldwell ^talk 23:35, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously the main text of the Nostradamus book that you linked to at the start of this section was written by Nostradamus, but the point is that page vii is an 'About the author' section and was not written by him. I wasn't suggesting that we should include a biography of Nostradamus in this article, but that there might be some more reliable sources which describe his work as a plague doctor. Having published a large number of books is not evidence of reliablity. Google search results are not a reliable source. I can see no evidence that the publishers and authors that you mention have a 'reputation for fact-checking and accuracy'. NotFromUtrecht (talk) 16:19, 18 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So, if I am understanding this correctly, you don't think Clifford A. Pickover is a good author and Prometheus Books is an unreliable publisher?--Doug Coldwell ^talk 18:52, 18 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Pickover's reliability as an author is not proved by the fact that his name generates 6000 hits on Google Books. His work is probably a better source than the Nostradamus text that you originally cited, but ultimately I'd prefer it if that point were supported by a peer-reviewed scholarly publication. NotFromUtrecht (talk) 20:45, 18 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Amber

Is the amber in the beak supposed to be Ambergris? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.238.210.254 (talk) 13:33, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I don't think so. Sorry for late reply. 86.30.82.159 (talk) 21:12, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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In popular culture

Current version has a "in popular culture" section that references an obscure SCP article. I don't think this is notable enough to be included. Thoughts?Almogo (talk) 17:01, 11 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Autopsies

The final part of the claim that "... plague doctors were freely allowed to perform autopsies to research a cure for the plague, a practice which was generally otherwise forbidden in Medieval Europe" has been edited out as (i) this is simply not true - both autopsies and anatomical dissections were not forbidden in medieval Europe and (ii) the citation given for this (Wray, Shona Kelly (2009). Communities and Crisis: Bologna During the Black Death) does talk about autopsies being performed but does not support the claim that they were "generally otherwise forbidden in Medieval Europe". The unedited sentence perpetuates a myth about the Middle Ages that historians of medical science have been trying to correct for about a century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TimONeill (talk • contribs) 09:10, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism

This page was vandalized today. It should be reverted and possibly protected. T g7 (talk) 12:24, 3 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This page is being repeatedly and blatantly vandalized. I hope I have reverted it to an accurate past version. I looked up how to report vandals but do not understand the process well enough to proceed. FidellaC (talk) 14:57, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  What specifically is being vandalized? Knowing that might make it easier to compare old version of the article to fix the problem. LottieSegal (talk) 02:28, 12 October 2020 (UTC) user: LottieSegal[reply]

  I have changed some information about the third plague outbreak. It had removed any mention of that, said the "most recent" outbreak had a death toll of 1.5 million and happened in the 21st century. More knowledgeable people on the subject may want to give it a read through as that is literally all I did.  Ullok (talk) 15:51, 26 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Help Organizing

I reorganized this article to be simpler to read, and to work better with the Plague_doctor_costume article, but it still needs work, especially the 'negotiations' section which I left alone. I removed the summary of the plague epidemics, but perhaps it could be returned and better integrated with the topic. CharlieCandide (talk) 08:32, 9 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Plague Doctor "Costume"

Is Costume the right word? -- Occupational dress is usually called a uniform (ie. a Doctor's or Policeman's uniform) vs dress for performance, disguise or entertainment. Valgrus Thunderaxe (talk) 08:39, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comparing uniform and costume, the clothing of of plague doctors is probably better described as a costume. Your edit in the article also destroyed a valid link to Plague doctor costume, so I'm going to revert that until a wider consensus develops. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 09:20, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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This

OMG it reminds me of 11BB X 1371! 94.182.122.124 (talk) 11:13, 14 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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