User talk:TimONeill
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Hello, TimONeill, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:
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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{helpme}} before the question. Again, welcome! Herostratus (talk) 05:01, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
Re this edit, what is your objection? Does the ref (page 148 of Freely's book) not support the text, or is Freely's book not a reliable source, or what? Herostratus (talk) 05:01, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
- The objection is based on the fact that the claim that Chrysostum was somehow responsible for leading a "mob" that destroyed a (supposedly rebuilt) Temple of Artemis is a long-standing pseudo historical myth. I've yet to track down who first invented it, but it seems to be based solely on a reference by Proclus of Constantinople, who praises Chrysostum, saying “In Ephesus, he despoiled the art of Midas.” Exactly how that can be interpreted as "he led a mob to burn down the Temple of Artemis after it had been rebuilt following its destruction by the Goths" I have no idea.
- To my knowledge there is no evidence the Temple was ever built after the Gothic sack. But there is certainly no primary source that links Chrysostum to the Temple in any way. The reference to Freely's book cites a page that simply repeats the myth, with no supporting source material or citation of primary sources (check via Google Books if you don't believe me). So we have an iteration of the claim on Wiki being backed up another iteration of the same claim in a popular travel guide. That's not exactly scholarly. If someone can find a source from the period that supports this claim I'd be happy for it to be reinstated with some proper substantiation in the footnote. But no-one has ever been able to show me a source to support it. Wiki shouldn't be peddling myths backed up by lazy research in a travel book.TimONeill (talk) 02:26, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
- OK. Fair enough, and thank you for replying. It appears that Freely's book cited as source for the passage (The Western Shores of Turkey: Discovering the Aegean and Mediterranean Coasts) is a travel book rather than a scholarly work, therefore not a good source for matters of historical fact, so I have restored your edit, and forgive me for doubting you, but we have to check these things out. Herostratus (talk) 04:49, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for your latest reversion of text, and your (second or third?) explanatory note at Talk:Temple of Artemis. Unfortunately, Freely's not the sole source for the assertion. Many others (some of whom really should know better) repeat it. Haploidavey (talk) 12:04, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- OK. Fair enough, and thank you for replying. It appears that Freely's book cited as source for the passage (The Western Shores of Turkey: Discovering the Aegean and Mediterranean Coasts) is a travel book rather than a scholarly work, therefore not a good source for matters of historical fact, so I have restored your edit, and forgive me for doubting you, but we have to check these things out. Herostratus (talk) 04:49, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
There much more than just Freely's Guide book. You can read here about the primary sources which shows openly sometimes the guilt of John Chrysostom:
By the beginning of the fifth century AD, however, the Temple of Artemis surely was destroyed. In about AD 402, Prudentius writes that "the huntress maid resigned Ephesus to thee [Christ]" (Against Symmachus, II.495). Another Christian poet, Paulinus of Nola, says much the same thing a few years later, in January AD 405: "Diana, too, has fled from Ephesus, for John has thrust her out" (Poem XIX.95). Paulinus is referring to John the Apostle, but there was another of the same name who also was charged with the destruction of the Artemision: John Chrysostom, Archbishop of Constantinople from AD 397 to 403, who was given the epithet "golden mouthed" for his rhetorical ability. Ironically, it had been learned from his pagan teacher Libanius, who wrote an poignant plea to Theodosius for the preservation of the ancient temples then being destroyed. Even though the emperor has "not ordered the temples to be shut up, nor forbidden any to frequent them: nor have you driven from the temples or the altars, fire or frankincense, or other honours of incense," monks run to them, "bringing with them wood, and stones, and iron, and when they have not these, hands and feet....the roofs are uncovered, walls are pulled down, images are carried off, and altars are overturned: the priests all the while must be silent upon pain of death. When they have destroyed one temple they run to another, and a third, and trophies are erected upon trophies: which are all contrary to law. This is the practice in cities, but especially in the countries" (Oration XXX, Pro Templis).
Cyril of Alexandria accuses John Chrysostom of having destroyed the Artemision in an encomium on the Virgin, where he refers to him as "the destroyer of the demons and overthrower of the temple of Diana" (Homily XI, from Patrologia Graeca, LXXVII, col. 1031). Although this homily is considered to be spurious, Proclus of Constantinople, Archbishop of Constantinople who died in AD 446, in lauding the achievements of John, does comment that "In Ephesus, he despoiled the art of Midas" (Oration XX.3, from Patrologia Graeca, LXV, col. 832). He also encouraged the depredation of other temples.
"On receiving information that Phœnicia was still suffering from the madness of the demons' rites, John got together certain monks who were fired with divine zeal, armed them with imperial edicts and dispatched them against the idols' shrines. The money which was required to pay the craftsmen and their assistants who were engaged in the work of destruction was not taken by John from imperial resources, but he persuaded certain wealthy and faithful women to make liberal contributions, pointing out to them how great would be the blessing their generosity would win" (Theodoret, Ecclesiastical History, V.29).
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/greece/paganism/artemis.html
--Andy4675 (talk) 05:20, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
- Those references are too vague to justify the claim that any Temple of Artemis was destroyed. They are references to Christianity supplanting the cult of the goddess in the city. The only clear reference to Chrysostom being "overthrower of the temple of Diana" is (i) as your own web source admits "spurious" and (ii) speaking figuratively. No source actually describes him destorying this temple.TimONeill (talk) 03:27, 17 May 2018 (UTC)