Talk:Pinball/Archive 1

Billiard Japonais (photo)

The photo of "Billiard Japonais, Southern Germany/Alsace 1750/70. It already has a spring mechanism to propell the ball. 100 years prior to later patents (see below)" is facinating. While trying to trace the origin of pachinko, I thought that the common origin would be bagatelle, but it seems that bagatelle (small thing, a trifle) originating in France perhaps, may have been predated by "Billard Japonais," which may suggest an origin back in Japan (assuming "Japonais" refers to the orgin)! The Bagatelle entry mentions 1777 as the earliest dated bagatelle game in France. Is this photo the earliest know Bagatelle game and why is it called Billard Japonais? Who posted the photo? What does the "see below" refer to?--Timtak (talk) 23:00, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I posted the photo and I shot it myself a few weks ago in the Deutsche Historische Museum (German Historical Museum) in Berlin. I am no expert about pinball machines, but I was struck by the similarities of this piece with todays pinball machines. Even the raised back, which of course was not intended as a display, but is only the result of the fact, that the billiard japonais part is underneath a regular, but smaller billiard version, that needed to be lifted to play the billiard japonais. Also included was a "cannon game" that was in a detachable separate box. there you had several cannons where with a spring mechanism you had to shoot a ball into several goals. I took the name "billiard japonais" from the description plate at the museum. If it revers to an actual japanese origin, I do not know. But everything oriental was very en vougue at the time, so it could also be just a "marketing" name. Wether it is the earliest known version, how should I know? The claim wasn't made in any way at the museum. The see below refers to the patent mentioned in the article, which also struck me strange, since this later patended feature was clearly visible in this version here. If you want to make any claims about a japanese origin, you need to make further research. The picture of this exhibit and the naming in itself would, in my opinion, not support such a claim by itself. --Wuselig (talk) 08:32, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you very much indeed for your speedy response. I was just about to post to your user page. I will try and contact the museum to ask them about origins. In any event it is very interesting. Thank you for submitting the photograph to. Accoring to the article, which mentions the earliest know version in 1777, this does appear to be the earliest known version. --Timtak (talk) 12:09, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Backglass

A recent edit added "For older games, the backglass image is painted in layers on the reverse side of a piece of glass." Isn't this process referred to as silkscreen? I found the quote "Pinball backglasses and playing field art are made by the silk-screen printing process, also called stencil printing." at http://science.enotes.com/how-products-encyclopedia/pinball.--Lhammer610 19:40, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, silk screening (aka. screen process printing) is how most of the artwork is applied to modern pinball cabinets and playfields. It used to be used for the backglasses too, but this is not used very often any more, and instead the artwork is printed on a "translight", a translucent plastic sheet held against the glass with plastic strips. The advantage of this, aside from lower cost and greater durability (the ink often cracks and peels off after a few years when printed directly onto glass), is that if the glass is damaged it is just an ordinary sheet of clear tempered glass and can be replaced easily. ~Matticus ^T_C 10:04, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Pinball simulation

I would like to propose that computer pinball simulation does not belong on the Pinball page. This page should be devoted to the machines, not video games. Computer simulation of any subject is not part of the subject itself. Computer simulation to an actual Pinball Machine is as relevant as a computer simulation of World War II is to the history of World War II.

I would suggest that computer simulation of pinball machines be moved to a section or subsection of computers and/or video games. Comments? --Lhammer610 18:26, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

It's not really a major-enough section to warrant its own page. It's more of a "in the world of pinball, there are some simulators." SpikeJones 21:05, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

As a pinball person, I see video games, even pinball emulators as not being relevant to pinball machines themselves (again, the analogy of computer emulation of WW II vs. the real thing). Pinball emulators are video games that are based on pinball machines. If they do not warrant its own page, then it should be, in my opinion, part of video or computer games. If emulators had their own page, it would allow expansion to include a pretty full list of the excellent emulators that have been developed over the years. (My favorite was the Eight Ball Deluxe emulator.) Anyone else?--Lhammer610 21:20, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

the WP pinball simulation section was never intended to represent anything more than notable simulators. For a while, if you check the history, you'll see that people were posting every single simulator/video game ever made. What's displayed now is simply those that actually are notable. To break it out would say that posting every pinball vid ever made is welcome again, and that's not what WP is about.SpikeJones 01:56, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

My point here is not that pinball simulations do not deserve a mention, nor am I arguing the scope of what should be displayed (I personally would not know how to determine what is "notable"). I think what is there is fine, but it is in the wrong place. A simulation is: "an imitation of some real thing, state of affairs, or process" - according to Wikipedia. Since it is not the "real thing" it does not belong under pinball. PC and video game simulations are video games. As such, they should be located under computer and/or video games.--Lhammer610 21:53, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Agreed that pinball sims is not actual pinball, but pinball sims wouldn't exist at all if pinball didn't come first (you see, they are related). With Visual Pinball, for example, that's often the only way to play certain tables for most people anyway (a way to ensure pinball history stays available, if you will). I do not feel that the sims warrant their own article, as the sims are fairly tightly linked to actual pins, as opposed to being a video game in and of themselves. SpikeJones 02:58, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this point and I don't know how conflicts such as this are solved in Wiki.

I know of no other Wiki sites where simulations are included under a topic. I checked Battle of Waterloo and WWII.

Pinball (video game) simulations have moved way beyond real pinball. There are now great computer video games that are not based on real pinball machines and, in a few cases, seem to violate the laws of physics. They are great games. Video / PC / games, that is.

Where do you want to go from here? BTW, I bet if you were to put this question to .rec.games.pinball, that you would be hard pressed to find a person who believes that a computer simulation is the real thing.--Lhammer610 17:35, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

When you have a chance, please check out the way the Game page is formatted. That has a reference and a short intro to Computer and Video Games. I think that would be a great way to tighten up this whole Pinball page.--Lhammer610 17:39, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

A world war does not have much in common with a game played by pressing two buttons, so that isn't a very good thing to use for precedent. I don't however see any reason why computerized pinball shouldn't have it's own article if you want to make one. Online poker has a separate article for example. Computer chess has it's own article, etc. Wizardkiss 01:45, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

formatting

while the WP home page may use "more..." for things, it's more because the front page has a selection of different articles where the "more" tag is appropriate vs putting the full text of the article. In WP article pages, I do not believe that the standard WP style supports the use of "more" as a way to link to other pages. Anyone have confirmation, as this isn't specifically mentioned in the WP:HOW link section. (Of course, the usage of the FURTHER, SEE, and MAIN tags are also hard to find as well, but may be related to this discussion)SpikeJones 04:57, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Hello Spike. I moved this discussion to the top of this page. I hope you don't mind. There are so many discussions on this page that new ones at the bottom get lost.

I have no strong preferences about linking the articles. If you don't like the "more" at the bottom, then by all means remove it. I was just copying the style used on the Wiki front page.

I have made no secret of my distaste for the main pinball page. That is why I broke out the Repair page to a separate one. If you have a chance to look at it (your editing would be appreciated), you will see that it is already too long to combine with the main pinball page. Thanks for your input.--Lhammer610 01:54, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Problem taken care of. Pinball repair was considered to be a "how to" page and was deleted from Wiki. Thanks for your help and comments.--Lhammer610 17:56, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Weird Format

Good article. Got some weird formatting things though - Wikipedia has style guidelines Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style which no doubt tell you not to put links labelled "Click Here To Visit Some Page" - the main article tags, or a see also list, or inclusion as a link within the text itself is better. You don't have to read the style guide, just mimic the style of a featured article.

According to Wikipedia, "This page is 58 kilobytes long. It may be appropriate to split this article into smaller, more specific articles. See Wikipedia:Article size." Also seeWikipedia:Summary style.--Lhammer610 02:57, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but that's a guideline rather than a requirement. Depending on the content of the page, it can be better to keep it all together. In some cases, only one section needs to be broken out as opposed to breaking out the entire page.SpikeJones 03:54, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is a guideline and in this case, I sure think it would help. This general page on pinball just rambles on, it is not cohesive nor easy to follow. In my opinion, it could be helped by reorganizing it and focusing it.

I still like the idea of a central pinball page where one could then easily navigate to the area that interests the person. Just look at the home Wiki page as a good example of what could have been done. They start articles and then actually have a link "more" at the end of the paragraph. In the Pinball page, we have History, Computer simulation, Pinball in popular culture, Features of a game, Pinball layout, Playing techniques, Features, and References, all complete and in their entirety on one page - it is too much to navigate. Pinball in popular culture is a nice curiosity, but hardly belongs on the main pinball page. How about information on purchasing a pinball machine? It is not even here.

Another way to think about it is what would a person be looking for who references this page? Is it here? If so, is it easy to find?

It would be nice to have a pinball resource on Wiki that would be informative and easy to read, with lots of pictures. That should push the page up to, oh, about 1 MB. Pity the poor people who still have dial up service.

But we may just have to agree to disagree. Besides, I have neither the energy nor will to follow up on what I started and was undone.

I will concentrate on the repair page which will be a very long time to get to any reasonable condition. Pinball is my hobby. Heck, it is a near obsession.

BTW, the link to the glossary of terms, which, thank goodness, is broken out and not included here should be updated. It has been moved to Transwiki: Glossary of terms. I could not figure out how to update it without reverting to a direct http link. If anyone knows how to update it, please do so. --Lhammer610 05:12, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Other stuff

Definitely needs a section on the history of pinball - e.g. who invented it?

This needs a complete section overhaul to begin with; there's good stuff but it's not organized. Some of it is pointless minutiae — "When a machine says "SHOOT AGAIN" on the scoreboard, it means that you have an extra ball to shoot" — while other things are just woefully underrepresented: Bally is mentioned twice in the entire article! And there are no mentions at all of notable tables that pioneered the features that are commonplace now. Humpty Dumpty (1947) introduced flippers as we know them today — pretty goshdarn important, I'd say. It's safe to say that not all of the hundreds of tables out there will get separate articles, but the most notable ones should at least be mentioned here. (Note that Humpty Dumpty is mentioned, quite uncomfortably, on the Humpty Dumpty page — I think we can give it its own page even if its not expandable, no?)

We don't just need a section on the history of pinball — we need a history of pinball article! :-) But that can come after the overhaul... For an encyclopedia reportedly written by nerds and Pokémon enthusiasts :-) the article also notably fails to mention the recent trend of virtual pinball machines, using ROM emulators to get as authentic a simulation as possible of vintage machines most enthusiasts won't have access to (see http://www.vpforums.com). As for references (and note that some of the links are already quite good): there are several excellent books on pinball, most notably Pinball by Gary Flower and Bill Kurtz (which I've read, but don't have access to ATM) and The Complete Pinball Book by Marco Rossignoli (which I've never read, but heard good things about).
Britannica has a laughable 334 words to expend on pinball. We can do a whole lot better than that. With decent effort, this could easily be bumped to the high score list: Wikipedia:Featured articles! In fact, I'm so sure about this that I'm going to put this on Wikipedia:Pages needing attention right now to get more eyeballs. JRM 14:28, 2005 Jan 25 (UTC)

I'd like to get started soon on writing a history of pinball page, and maybe we can incorporate the material from there into here once it's finished. It looks like someone has tried to start already, but they're somewhat wrong. I'm wary of tearing this whole page up at once and doing a major rewrite. What do you think? Lkoziarz 04:32, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

This page isn't comprehensive enough to start creating sub-articles, IMO. I'd say go ahead and attack the "history" section within this existing article. When it is in good shape, we can decide whether to spin it off into a seperate article. Jgm 12:25, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Got it! Will do! Lkoziarz 21:07, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Done! Please be gentle on me! Lkoziarz 01:59, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Very nice, Lk. I like it! MinkStaccato 10/5/5

This is getting better every day. I think we should consider nominating it for featured article soon. The history has been expanded upon extremely well. (Props, Lkoziarz!) MinkStaccato 11/29/5

Yeah, it's looking nice. I'd really like to have some images in the history section before that point, though. I just haven't had much time to research the fair-use stuff on some images I have in mind. Lkoziarz 15:53, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

---

I've deleted (again) links to lists of owners of a particular machine. Too specific and does not add anything to an article about pinball. If there were articles on the specific machines (and why not) these links could go there. Jgm 21:31, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

question on PC Pinball

Do we really need to list *every* pinball game/platform that's been released? I could see making a separate list of notable games, but not as presented in the article. Where's the mention of PINBALL for the Atari 2600? DEVIL'S CRUSH or TIME CRUSH for the TG16? Those pinball flipper button peripherals for computer keyboards? Microsoft's rendition of all those Gottlieb games in MSFT'S PINBALL ARCADE? The new PS2 pinball collection? (I could go on...) I propose either deleting the following sentence, or expanding it to include other pinball sims that have *also* gained a following:

• The Pinball simulation should really mention Digital Illusion's Pinball Dreams. An extremely successful pinball game for Amiga, at least in Europe. --Jooon

• A few commercial 'pinsims' for the PC have gained a following, most notably the Pro-Pinball series of simulations, which includes Pro-Pinball: The Web (1995), Pro-Pinball: Timeshock! (1998), Pro-Pinball: Big Race U.S.A. (1998), and Pro-Pinball: Fantastic Journey (1999).

• I agree with the first comment about it getting too diluted. The section on PINBALL SIMULATIONS has turned into a marketing/advertising list of various "favorite" pinball simulators and programs. There are a few good sentences in there, but as we don't list all the pins that were ever manufactured here, we should stick with highlighting the groundbreaker sims and their significance/contributions only. SpikeJones 04:22, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Pinball firsts

I distinctly remember that 'The Addams Family' pinball machine was hyped around the fact it was the first pinball machine to have 'AI flippers'. I'd add this to the list, but... firstly, I have no idea if this was true (maybe other tables had similar things beforehand?), secondly I have no idea what year it was released, and thirdly, I have no idea if it worked properly. All I really remember, was that the pinball machine could control the flippers by itself if you activated a feature, and that occasionally when you lost a ball, the flippers would flip to the famous Addams Family *click click* tune. All in all, could anyone clarify the existance/dates of this? My memory is extremely vague... --CherryMay 22:26, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

'The Addams Family' (1991) was the earliest machine from Williams to use electronically-controlled flippers (Williams named their system "Fliptronics") - previously the flippers were wired through the cabinet switches (and thus required high-voltage tungsten contact switches), but Fliptronics moved the heavy switching work to transistors on a separate PCB, meaning low voltage switches could be used on the cabinet buttons and EOS (end of stroke) switches (which made for more reliable operation - the contacts didn't wear out so quickly). Yes, the flippers did click in time to the famous theme music at the end of a ball (about one in ten, in fact). There was also a small flipper below the exit to a ramp, which could be both player-controlled, and under the right circumstances would flip automatically to kick the ball into another hole (the "Thing Flips" feature). It used an optical sensor to detect the passage of the ball, and usually needs a bit of patient adjustment to get it to work reliably all the time! I may be wrong, but I believe Williams experimented with electronic flippers on the late runs of other games, but TAF was the first to use them right from the get-go.

The unsigned info above is all true, to my knowledge. The "AI flippers" claim probably refers to the "Thing Flips" feature -- when this feature was activated the side flipper operated by itself and "learned" the proper timing for the shot. Of course this feature (as well as the finger snapping flippers) was enabled by the fliptronics design since it meant that flippers could be activated without a button press. Jgm 8 July 2005 12:58 (UTC)

Yes, it learns the proper shot timing because the hole it is shooting for has targets on either side, so it can tell if it's shooting too early or late. -CMW Feb-2007

• I'd vote for leaving the "AI" flippers out of any list of pinball milestones. To me, a significant milestone is one that changes pinball from that point on out...and AI flippers weren't implemented in any following machine, at least to my knowledge. Again, I'd argue that it doesn't really rate as a milestone. Gmaletic 19 July 2005

• I agree. Williams/Bally never promoted Thing Flips as anything more than a gimmick in The Addams Family. Almost every game had some special trick or gimmick that made the machine unique, and the promotional literature would find what was unique about that game and hype it. One can argue that computer control of flippers is a minor achievement in pinball design (all WMS machines afterward used Fliptronic boards in their games, and eventually the circuity was incorporated into the WPC-II architecture), but I think that's stretching things. And for the record, the "AI Flippers" technique made a reappearance as "Phantom Flips" in Monster Bash. Lkoziarz 04:35, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

• I would agree as well. The fliptronic is cool, but did not become anything like a pinball standard item after MB. (Although, by that measure, Baby Pac-Man and a few others could be dropped... But I like those, so I'll be quiet now.) Also, I linked up the firsts to the ipdb a few weeks back. MinkStaccato 10/5/5

Note that Fliptronics refers to the board controlling the flippers, not the particular features such as AI control and snapping the flippers in tune to the music, which was a feature of the software controlling the game. -CMW Feb-2007

---

Just found this: Game Room Magazine that says that "For example, he credits Mirco's Spirit of 76 as the first solid state pinball but it's now known that Bally's Flicker (see GameRoom June 1999 cover story) was indeed the world's first pinball machine to be successfully computerized, albeit a prototype." Can anyone confirm? SpikeJones 15:19, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

• That is correct. Bally had Dave Nutting Associates design the first prototypes of Bally's solid-state system. See [1] But pinball historians and collectors always look to the first commercially available instance of a technology and not prototypes when marking down a "first". Lkoziarz 00:27, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

The bigger problem I've run into when managing these "firsts" for ipdb.org is that there can be much disagreement over what consitutes a first. A very common example of this is when a complex game is designed with a new feature but before it can go to production, a simpler game is designed *and* produced that has the same or similar feature. So, which is first: the designed game or the manufactured game. This incites much argumentative email. Another example is minor variations on similar features. And another example is obscure or little known games that implemented the feature many years ago, such as in a purely mechanical or electro-mechanical design, and much later solid state designs which "re-created" the same feature and are well known. In summary: be careful about adding firsts to this list and research them carefully. -CMW Feb-2007

• What was the first pinball machine to have a digital score display instead of the mechanical score reel? Maybe this could be added to the article.

Playball (Gottlieb, 1971) also had no plunger, you launch the ball by pressing the right flipper button. I own this game, so I'm sure this is correct. Rfguy 17:45, 30 April 2007 (UTC)Rfguy

"Microprocessor" vs. "Soild State"?

This page makes a disctintion between Spirit of '76 being the first "microprocessor game", while Williams Electronics is credited as the first "solid-state game."

First of all, what's the distinction between these two categorizations? Secondly, Firepower seems -extremely- late in the game to be considered the first solid-state...most pinball books acknowledge dozens long before Firepower. (Though most books acknowledge Spirit of '76 as the first solid state, Bally did many, many solid-state games before Williams did Firepower (not even their first solid-state, which was "Hot Tip," I believe.)) What's special about Firepower?

• The way I understand it, "solid state" refers to the mechanics of the game (such as flippers and other switches) and is the upgrade path of "electro-mechanical". Solid state switches have no moving parts. "Microprocessor" is the brains behind the game that handles lights, scoring, matrix board, etc. A microprocessor can control games with either electro-mechanical OR solid state parts. [2] and [3] and [4] should be enough to answer this fully. Do we need to explain this in the article itself? SpikeJones 20:19, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

• • To clarify the above, "solid state" refers to how the pinball is controlled - ie: by the use of microprocessors instead of stepper units and relays. This does not refer to the mechanics of the game. Switches are still mechanical devices, although they now use micro switches (which do have moving mechanical parts inside) instead of leaf or blade switches. And the solenoid assemblies are also still mechanical, but are controlled by the microprocessor using transistors to energise the coils. The comment "A microprocessor can control games with either electro-mechanical OR solid state parts" is incorrect - The microprocessor (and related electronics) replaces the stepper units and relays that control EM pinballs, but the rest of the solid state pinball machine is essentially the same as an Electro-Mechanical pinball machine. PinballFixer 14:17, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

• That's a distinction I'd never heard before, but I think it's a reasonable one to make if people believe it to be a useful and signifcant way to categorize machines. The thing that seems strange to me, however, is the designation of Williams 1980 machine "Firepower" as the first solid state machine. Williams own advertisements promote 1977's "Hot Tip" as a solid-state machine ( http://ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=3163&depth=-1&picno=4586&zoom=1 ) (Or is Williams mis-representing the machine under the microprocessor/solid-state distinction we've discussed?) And Williams was hardly the first...Bally's "Fireball" was even earlier. Is that what the author was thinking of, rather than "Firepower?" Here is a list of solid-state pins according to IPDB: http://ipdb.org/search.pl?gtype=SS&yr=1970-1980&searchtype=advanced . Gmaletic 19 July 2005

• • According to [5], "1975 - The first solid-state, or electronic pinball machine, "Spirit of 76", was first introduced by Micro. It marks the beginning of the switch from electromechanical (EM) machines to solid-state, or electronics-based pinball machines. " Here, the text combines says 'solid state' when earlier on the same page, a flyer for the machine clearly--WideArc 03:37, 8 August 2005 (UTC) reads 'microprocessor'. I think the author of this particular information is combining terms. A different site ([6])has similar info, calling Spirit the first game to move away from relays into solidstate. But to directly answer your question about Hot Tip: [7] says that Hot Tip was "one of Williams first solid state games", as opposed to "the first solid state pinball of all". But why beat around the bush? Let's go straight to the FAQ: "What are Solid State games? Basically, anything that came out after EMs died out. The first solid state game came out around 1976. The most obvious changes in these new machines were the use of 7-segment displays for score, and more electronical-sounding noises (computer-generated beeps and boops)." Of course, they say that FREEDOM is the first generally available SS game, but that came out after Spirit did.SpikeJones 15:17, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

• • • Uncle Willy was trying to be detailed when talking about Hot Tip. A portion of the run of Hot Tip was done in standard electromechanical, and a portion was done in solid-state. Williams didn't make a game exclusively in solid-state until a short while later. Lkoziarz 04:04, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

• • Just found this [8] which specifically says Firepower is the first solid state multiball game (previous multiballs used some sort of EM mechanism, whereas Firepower could monitor multiball settings for multiple players and release/lock balls as necessary). Can anyone find secondary confirming evidence and clarify the list? SpikeJones 16:47, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

• • • Yes, you can pretty much confirm it here: [9] Firepower was the game that coined the word "Multiball", Williams trademarked it as well for this game. Nobody considers Firepower to be the first solid-state game, by a long shot. Lkoziarz 04:04, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

• • The book "Pinball The Lure of the Silver Ball" by Gary Flower & Bill Kurtz, 1988, pg.83 "Firepower was the first digital pinball to feature multiball play..." --WideArc 03:37, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Win by Tilt

Anonymous added this text: Win by tilt techniques were developed by the Gothic Wizards of Jersey City State College. Students from the physics and mathematics departments had noticed a relation between the system match number and the last digit of the machines score. Upon black box analysis, they determined that tilting the machine based upon the last number showing in the match display gave the new last digit match number. Thus just tilting the machine at the correct last digit display gave a free game via the match. Is this a standard playing style, or something that should be rewritten to indicate that this only applied to EM machines, was more prevelant than at just one location, or at least rewrite the final sentence, which is awkward at best? SpikeJones 01:22, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

It sounds like a group of players found a specific fluke in one machine and took advantage of it. Every EM from every manufacturer worked differently, and while it's possible that this really happened, games since the 1980s haven't worked this way and can't be taken advantage of in the same manner. Lkoziarz 13:09, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

that's what I thought. I debated yanking the entire paragraph since it sounded extremely singularly-machine/location specific as opposed to something common across all pins (EM or not). What's your thought?SpikeJones 15:32, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

I wouldn't yank it, maybe reword it to just note that sometimes there are flukes in EM games that people can take advantage of, this being one of them. Lkoziarz 00:12, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Actually, this sounds to me like it might be more recent in origin than EMs. Stern's Terminator 3 (1999) had a programming bug in earlier software ROM revisions that caused the Match feature to always generate "00" as the match number after the game had been in service for some time. If players became aware of this, they could win as many free games as they wanted by waiting until the score ended in "00" on the last ball and then intentionally tilting the machine. Stern released a service bulletin on this issue, which was fixed in software revision 3.01. Firebug 00:06, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Magnets

Some pinball machines have magnets under the table, possibly electromagnets, usually roughly in the middle. I believe this is to make the game harder and prevent the player staying on indefinitely, but I don't have much info. Nothing in the article about this yet. 81.101.129.15 00:04, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

No game has ever had a permanent magnet under the table. If it did, eventually you would see a slow-moving ball freeze in place over the center of the magnet and never come home. There are, however, games that used computer-controlled elctromagnets as you describe. They were used to either provide some randomness in the direction of the ball (as in The Addams Family or Ripley's Believe it or Not!), change the direction of the ball, or hold the ball in place temporarily (as in Black Knight or World Cup Soccer '94) They're not needed to "keep the player from staying on indefinitely", that'll happen to even the best of players given enough time. This can certainly be added as a feature sometimes found in games (but not in every game). Lkoziarz 02:51, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. Electromagnets have been featured in a number of games for various purposes and features. Aside from ones hidden under the playfield to deflect or temporarily halt the ball, some machines have them above the playfield, often as an element of the machine's "toys" to move the ball around - eg. the "dataglove" on Johnny Mnemonic, or the ball-grabbing T-Rex on Jurassic Park. It's hard to decide where to fit it into the article, though - the playfield targets section seems about the best place to go (since it lists elements common in pinball, but not necessarily present on every machine), but magnets are not necessarily scoring elements or explicit targets as the other items in the list are. Perhaps that section could be reworded from "Common scoring targets include..." to "Common playfield elements include...", or the section could be split into scoring targets and non-scoring elements (although "playfield toys" can be either, depending on the game).--Matticus78 23:37, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

A good place for this might possibly be the beginning of a "pinball myths" section!

• • T-Rex does not use an electro-magnet, there is a saucer that the ball can land in infront of T-Rex, and depending on the stage of the game, the saucer will either kick the ball out, or T-Rex will come down and "eat" the ball. This is done via two motor's under the playfield to move T-Rex left and right, and up and down. Then a solenoid energises when T-Rex is down to "eat" the ball. Once T-Rex moves back to the upright position, the ball drops through T-Rex (using gravity), to the underside of the playfield. PinballFixer 23:11, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

History query

The order of the history sections seems odd to me; the article talks about the invention of pinball in the 19th century, then jumps to the post-World War II era, then the post-war era, then digresses to a discussion of pinball and gambling, then goes back to the Depression era. I would {{justfixit}}, but I don't actually know anything about the history of pinball and I'm worried that I might accidentally introduce an error. Anyway, I hope that someone more knowledgeable than I am could rationalize the structure of that part of the article. Thanks. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 22:39, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Petacos

In Spain, flippers and by extensions pinball machines are also known as petacos, after a particular manufacturer Petaco. Interestingly DRAE gives for petaco a Palencia meaning of a cue in some kind of game in the family of shuffleboard and petanque.

main index navigation

since the Pinball pages have all been separated, can someone add an infobox/navigation box thingie to all the pages so they are interlinked? It will look better than saying "click here for..." or "return to..." at various parts of each page, plus make navigation between pages easier so you don't have to return to the main pinball page to continue reading.SpikeJones 13:35, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Hey Spike. I was the one who separated the pages. That took a lot longer than I expected. I also included new headings in some of the new pages. It is still a work in progress and I agree that navigation is needed. I am used to doing my editing directly in HTML using Dreamweaver and am still on the learning curve for Wikipedia. Hopefully, I can get to it soon. Thanks for the pointers on the captilization, by the way. Lhammer610 00:18, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Some additional pointers, then. Never use the phrase "click here". Do not put nav links to other pages as straight text at the top and bottom of each page as you had done in some places (there are other, better ways to do it that would also stay within WP style guidelines). Each page should be able to stand on its own, with links to the other pages as support. It's quite possible that the pinball page could have been shortened simply by separating out a single section instead of separating out all the different sections. (if that was your intention) SpikeJones 03:33, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the pointers. Wikipedia seems to be set up in ways that are different from the WWW. I have created several commercial and non-profit web pages. When I took a look at the pinball page, the one thing that struck me was that it was way too long for any single web page (Wikipedia or not) and that it should be sectioned out. If I had been doing a web page, I would have done a single introduction page with "pop up" or similar navigation menus to the other pages. However, I wanted to respect the tremendous (although at times - rambling) input that others had done.

I did some research on Wikipedia on how to reduce the size of a page. First was their comment Wikipedia:Ignore all rules. That seemed to mean to me that there is room for us to improvise. In another section on reducing the size of large pages, they suggested that it be done in newspaper style, with an introductory paragraph and then a link to the appropriate page, so that is what I did. I eventually planned on using the phrase "read more..." such as used on some www news pages but have never gotten around to it (yet). The "click here" comment is a valid one, but I don't like the static, lack of dynamic roll-over buttons that I can do with Flash on other web pages. But at your suggestion, I will drop it. You said "Do not put nav links to other pages as straight text at the top and bottom of each page as you had done in some places (there are other, better ways to do it that would also stay within WP style guidelines)." Please show me what you suggest here, or feel free to change the page(s). Thanks.

My goal is to improve the page. I am a pinball hobbyist. I have purchased, restored, and repaired many pinball games. I have currently a pretty good collection, including AF and EBD (among others). I do circuit level repair and playfield restoration. Where I want to spend the majority of my time is improving on the pinball repair page (although much of that will be links to some other fantastic sites) as well as information on how to purchase and sell games.

Here are some links that show what I was thinking:

Portland Oregon newpaper

Philadelphia Inquirer

Thanks for being patient with a Wikipedia newbie. Take care Lhammer610 16:46, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

WP is not intended to look/act like other websites, so don't think in terms of what you know of WWW page creation. It's an encyclopedia, so think in terms of how reference material is organized and how articles that support each other should be connected. If this means that you create a {{Pinball Navbox}} to handle navigation between all the pinball-related pages, then so be it -- besides, then you'll only have one item to edit that would populate all-related pinball pages at once. There are many built-in WP standards to point to primary articles, such as {main|Name of Article} to point a particular section to the right space. Seriously, check out the WP style guide, or look at how other similar subjects have handled breaking out such stuff (video games, roller coasters, music, etc) SpikeJones 18:36, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Page Blanking

With the changes back to the main pinball page from the broken out pages, do the other recently created pages like Pinball Simulation need to be speedily-deleted? (and Pinball history too) SpikeJones 04:44, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Montague Redgrave

I've changed the spelling of his first name from 'Montegue' to 'Montague'. Although there are more Google results for the former spelling, I believe that most of these are Wikipedia-related, or possibly related to the original source of the misspelling. More authoritative sources, such as Cincinatti Library, which holds the original patent, use the 'Montague' spelling. Russ London 11:36, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Maintenance and repair Section

"For those wishing to maintain or repair their machine, there are many sources of information on the Internet. Regular maintenance of a pinball machine can keep it running smoothly and maintain its resale value. Many maintenance tasks are relatively simple. Maintenance includes cleaning and waxing of the playfield, cleaning switches and replacing the pinball(s) and batteries.

For those wishing to maintain or repair their machine, there are many sources of information on the Internet." Seems more like a how to guide then an encyclopaedia entry. I think it should be edited or removed. Beetle120 13:25, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Cheating.................

Is it possible to use washers that are the size of quarters to "cheat" into getting "free" credits? My friend said that he accidently put in washers in a coinstar machine, and the machine counted it as a quarter. Of course, this might not be true, but if someone is daring to, maybe you could try putting in washers at a pinball machine? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.116.37.15 (talk) 19:08, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Pictures

I'm from Austria and I work in the German Wikipedia. I've loaded up pictures of the most important table components into Commons (category: pinball). You can use this for the article. -- Joe from Titan 07/11/29 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.33.254.93 (talk) 19:55, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Flipper

I've scanned a whole bunch of 1976 advertisements from a trade magazine, and in every one of them, what we commonly refer to as a "pinball machine" is consistently referred to as a "flipper." Not one of these ads (even the one featuring Pinball Wizard, Elton John) refers to them as pinball machines. Ad for Bally's Bow And Arrow Flipper. Conversely, there seems to be no mention in this entry about pinball machines being referred to as flippers. What gives? alainsane (talk) 05:56, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

External links

Over the past several weeks, there has been a huge deletion of external links. These have been added by many contibutors over the past few years, then were suddenly deleted. One of the explanations was that the links were "the addition of links akin to spam". I completely disagree with that statement. The links deleted are not spam (I am not really certain what a spam link is). The links are, for the most part, useful and helpful to those who want to find more about pinball than what is offered here.

After returning the links, the changes were deleted with the statement "we are an encyclopedia not a web directory" and referring me to Wikipedia:EL. A good point, and I have spent some time reading the guidelines.

The page opens with "Some external links are welcome, but Wikipedia's purpose is not to include a comprehensive list of external links related to each topic." This is clearly open to interpretation as to what represents a comprehensive list, vs. "welcome" external links.

It is impossible for this article to include a "comprehensive list" but is the current list overdone.

I believe that the current external links are overdone and should be culled. However, the editors RFerreira and Felix the Hurricane solve this problem by deleting all references in many categories. Deleting all references to repair (there are only five currently) is drastic. In looking at them, I believe the last two are somewhat misplaced or not needed. But if the editors take the time to look at the other three, I believe that they meet the requirement of Wikipedia's "Some external links are welcome".

None of these links fit the requirement of "Sites to be Avoided". Nor are they links to commercial sites nor biographies of living people.

My recommendation is that if you want to edit the links, do so carefully without resorting to wholesale deletion of useful links. Lhammer610 (talk • contribs) 02:46, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I believe that this has been addressed by Hu12 and a few other folks, but the number of links are far too excessive and still need additional work in their present state. I am not sure that you do in fact understand the guidelines and policies affecting these changes. Felix the Hurricane (talk) 21:23, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

article still locked for editing?

Resolved

Would like to add to pinball firsts section:

• First pinball to be licensed from a movie: Bally's WIZARD (citation: http://www.spiritmag.com/2008_01/features/ft4.php)

I'm sure there's more interesting items to pull from that article as well. SpikeJones (talk) 16:14, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Can someone add a protection template?

{{editprotected}}

Adding a {{pp-dispute}} (or whatnot) shouldn't be too controversial... Zetawoof_(ζ) 22:14, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

 Done. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 04:55, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

consensus?

I think that if we have all reached a consensus regarding how-to material and to move to DMOZ that this can be unprotected now. Is everyone in favor? RFerreira (talk) 20:52, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I thought we had reached consensus in the above talk item, that marvin was staying for sure. I'm not sure what LMHAMMER was proposing with his last comment.

• the pinball clubs go
• pinballHQ (as proceeds go to the Pinball Hall of Fame) might be worthwhile to keep.... or be placed on the PHoF wiki page
• IPDB stays as it is similar to IMDB links on movie-related pages
• PinballNews will probably stay (or, at the very least, be used as references for news-related items)
• PHoF should stay... or at least be linked to the PHoF page properly
• Links to Stern and Pat Lawlor stay, being the last pin manufacturer and major pin designer company left
• Simulators WILL be questioned by some. PinMAME being the one that people will be most vocal about keeping (the others can go to DMOZ)
• Online communities can go
• Other information can go

How's that for a summary? Did I miss anything? SpikeJones (talk) 21:11, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I was under the impression that the resolution for this was to migrate the links to the Open Directory (DMOZ) and then actually get to work citing the material we're currently publishing and cut back on that which cannot be reliably sourced. I hope I did not misinterpret anyone, but debating what is "worthwhile" in the face of our WP:EL guidelines puts us back in circles. RFerreira (talk) 22:02, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the DMOZ items I indicated as such (or as "go") above. The series of statements "Because of that, we could footnote every technical item in the article that is supported by info in Marvin with ref="marvin", or we can merely list it as an external link. and Okay, we're all on the same page, if this is a recognized and trusted source which meets our standard for reliable sources then I have no objection to it being cited as such I assumed meant that you recognized that we would have a gazillion citations all pointing to the same article OR we could simplify the citation needs by merely including Marvin as an external link. (I hoped the latter). I then merely went through the existing ELs that I saw back in Jan and offered my opinion based on the "reliable, recognized, trusted" sources statement as to what is, in fact, a valuable link to retain. SpikeJones (talk) 23:25, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I still am not certain where this leaves the Maintenance question. No complete article of Pinball, which is a complex electromechanical device, can ignore maintenance - it is a crucial part of the pinball story. That is not to say I am proposing a "how to" inclusion. If we are going to include external Maintenance links, then we absolutely need Marvin. I would prefer we add at least one or two other links as Marvin does not include beginner's information - it starts at soldering circuit boards. Is there going to be any mention of Maintenance in the article (without violating "How to") or just external links?

My only comment about using DMOZ as a substitute is it is badly organized grouping all external pinball links into one category. If you want to use DMOZ as a substitute, I can be in favor of that. Does DMOZ allow subcategories (Pinball Clubs, Pinball Publications, Pinball Festivals, etc.) so it can be organized in a similar fashion to the links that used to be on this page?

If Illinois Pinball Company actually starts manufacturing a machine (has been long promised but not delivered) it should be added to Stern. Lawlor is not a manufacturer, but a designer (and likely the most famous of those still active).

I love The Pinball Hall of Fame. However, it is not like the Baseball, Rock & Roll, Football etc. Hall of Fames in that it is a self anointed title. It is privately run, a great place to visit, and does donate its profits to charity. It may be the world's largest collection of pinball machines. Tim is a great guy who deserves credit for what he does. However, does his collection warrant an external link and other large collections open to the public do not?Lhammer610 (talk) 22:58, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Personally I do not thing that the Pinball Hall of Fame warrants an external link in the pinball article, however it already has an internal link because someone created a Wikipedia article for it. The merits of that article should probably be discussed on its respective discussion page, but I think it is a noteworthy museum even though the "hall of fame" designation is self-anointed as you say. I have done some serious reading across the Wikiprojects and believe that the best place for the maintenance things would be at Wikibooks, which is a "Wikimedia Foundation wiki for the creation of free content textbooks and manuals." The remaining links which are not being cited inline as references (using REF) for whatever reason can and should be ported to Open Directory. I hope I've covered all the bases. Felix the Hurricane (talk) 20:20, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with your comments about the Pinball Hall of Fame" and your comments about maintenance belonging in Wikibooks.

I think if you look at what had been in this article on Pinball, that what was there was not a "how to". I do believe that some comments about pinball maintenance are appropriate for this article as long as they are not "how to". It would be limited to designs and problems of those machines. For example, early EM games kept scoring through a series of lights on the backglass. This required the use of a spinning wheel whose electrical contacts lit up the lights. These contacts required constant cleaning as the full power required to power the lights went through these contacts, etc. Then an introduction to EM spinning scoring wheels. Introduction of microprocessors and the problems and bugs associated with them. EOS switches being replaced by the Williams designs that are normally open and have low current flow. All would reference design and maintenance problems without a "how to fix and maintain it".

Does this idea meet the requirements and limitations of this article? My concern is that this might be better served as a separate Wiki article, because of its length, rather than inclusion into this one.Lhammer610 (talk) 16:55, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I am not certain what the consensus was on the topic of maintenance. I still firmly believe that no complete article on pinball can ignore maintenance. Given that we all (seem to) agree that a "how to" is inappropriate, we can and should cover the difficulties in maintaining the different generations of pinball. Pinball maintenance was and continues to be a major issue in the health of this industry. I would be willing to tackle this article (or section), but do not want to put in the hours necessary only to have it "shot down" after posting. Should we create a "Sandbox" on this topic? Please let me know your thoughts. Thank you. Lhammer610 (talk) 16:38, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I'll jump in and say that having detailed info on maintenance will be viewed by some as not encyclopedic enough for inclusion (does WP have articles on car repair/maintenance? I do not know). I thought that there was a grudging agreement that a singular link to Marvin as an EL could be allowed for those who wanted to get more info on that particular subject -- and frankly, considering Marvin exists for this purpose, a WP article would probably be lacking in comparison -- although there was a suggestion that it would be prefered for Marvin to be used as a reference in this article rather than as an EL. I recommend looking at articles on other subjects that require maintenance (cars, computers, housing come to mind) and see how they handle the topic first before continuing here. SpikeJones (talk) 16:51, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I am not communicating well and I apologize. Not pinball maintenance. A history of pinball machines with references to their maintenance problems. Not a "how to". It would not duplicate Marvin in any way. This would be more of an engineering reference similar to what is listed in the Wankel Engine article.

At one point, we had, I thought, a consensus to list some pinball links to maintenance site(s?). There is not an external link to Marvin. I also recommend another site or two since Marvin's information is very advanced and does not include basic repair.

There were comments made on deleting external links reference using DMOZ as a replacment. Yet only a small fraction of the links originally referenced are in the Pinball DMOZ. Plus the DMOZ is poorly organized, lumping all links to pinball into one category. I support removing many of the links that were originally in this article. But the culling has gone overboard and I think many should and could be restored without violating the Wiki rules on external links.Lhammer610 (talk) 02:51, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. After all the culling of links, Jossi adds the "linkfarm" comment that the pinball article contains excessive links. I suspect he is referring to the links in the "Pinball Firsts" portion? Help here. Lhammer610 (talk) 15:11, 10 April 2008 (UTC)