Talk:Piccolo

Contradicting information

From the Fifth Symphony article:

Trombones and piccolos

While it it commonly stated that the last movement of Beethoven's Fifth is the first time the trombone and the piccolo were used in a concert symphony, it is not true. The Swedish composer Joachim Eggert specified trombones for his Symphony in E-flat major written in 1807[26], and examples of earlier symphonies with a part for piccolo abound, including Michael Haydn's Symphony no. 19 in C major composed in August 1773.

From the piccolo article:

The first symphonic composition in which a piccolo was used was Ludwig van Beethoven's Symphony No. 5, also the first symphonic work to use a trombone.

I deleted it. Is that OK.

Casting aspersions

The joke remarks have ABSOLUTELY no place in an excyclopedic article. Please send me your thoughts, let's come to a consensus here. - AustinBrister 12:28, 30 April 2008 (MST)

evidenced by the joke circulating among musicians that defines a minor second as "two piccolos playing in unison". I'm not sure these remarks are appropriate. TheScotch 08:35, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

i deleted these remarks as they are beyond inappropriate - it reads more encyclopedic now. sorry, i don't have an account so this is probably going to have my black-listed but it was so just not appropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.50.255.145 (talk) 14:47, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

That joke was transcribed from saxophone or oboe. The standard piccolo joke is "How do you get two piccolo players to play in tune with each other? Answer: Shoot one!" lol EnglishHornDude (talk) 14:57, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Range

The range diagram should specify whether it refers to written range or concert ("sounding") range. This diagram evidently refers to concert range, but I can tell that only because I already knew the piccolo's range before I looked at the diagram. Most orchestration and band scoring texts give the piccolo's range as D to C (two octaves and a minor seventh above the low D). I can't tell to what the small-note low C refers: the piccolo does not have a foot joint as far as I know, and it's only the flute's foot joint that allows it play middle C; the flute's and the piccolo's pipes are D pipes. TheScotch 08:43, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I have seen a piccolo with a foot joint that went down to low C; they are EXTREMELY rare, though, and piccolo music is never written below D unless the composer is unexperienced and doesn't know that the range of the flute & picc aren't the same. I am also confused as to why it shows a high D as the highest note. I have seen fingerings for it, indicating that some people have managed to play it, but I have never been able to get out anything higher than C (nor known anyone who could, and I have talked to several professionals about it) and you will never see anything written above C. ChaosMaster 16:20, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't know how to edit the image or how to make a new image. TheScotch 06:39, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, I don't know why this is so hard: one image should denote the written range (which is D4 to C7) and concert pitch range (apparently D5 to C8). DKqwerty 14:28, 22 October 2007 (EST)

All right, I've fixed that. --Number Googol (talk) (my edits) 12:09, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

The claim of no literature written below "D" is a dubious one. There is at least one middle "C" in the Overture to "The Abduction from the Seraglio" by Mozart. EnglishHornDude (talk) 00:41, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

That part was originally written for the "Flauto piccolo in G". And most modern copies have corrected these errors.

Though not relevant to the article itself per WP:NOR, I'm curious how you propose any modern piccolo player play a note written below D4. DKqwerty (talk) 01:45, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Two points: (1) The piccolo is written down to low C in Verdi's Requiem, and Mahler's Symphony No. 1. (2) It is fairly easy to obtain a low C# on an ordinary piccolo without a C foot, simply by rolling the embouchure inward (the sound is relatively weak, of course). With the right sort of preparation (and given a "clear run" of notes in the immediate vicinity), an emergency low C can be obtained by inserting a short tube of paper in the end of the instrument (the same way bassoonists obtain the low A called for in Nielsen's Wind Quintet). Of course, it is also possible to search for an antique piccolo with a low C foot.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:19, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Clarity

Re: "A typical flute section may include only one or two piccolos.... It would help if the article distinguished "sections" in band and orchestra. Orchestra scores typically have woodwinds either in two's or in three's. Woodwinds in two's typically exclude piccolo, English horn, and bass clarinet, whereas woodwinds in three's tend to have two flutes and one piccolo or three flutes with one piccolo double. It's rare to have two piccolos in an orchestra score. TheScotch 08:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I've changed the article to read, "Triple-woodwind orchestral works typically include two flutes and one piccolo or three flutes with a piccolo double." TheScotch 07:40, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Ear Plugs

Re: [from the article] "It is increasingly difficult to sustain notes in the third octave – these notes can damage the eardrums. Those who play the piccolo use ear-plugs to stifle the sound."

I know several piccolo players, and as far as I can tell none of them wear ear plugs. Can we get some corroboration for the article's claim? TheScotch 07:33, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure those notes do not actually damage hearing, and if they do, it's very insignificant unless you're playing high C at fortississimo during entire pieces. I've removed that from the article, as the only people I've known to wear earplugs for piccolo playing are the clarinets who sit next to me, as they dislike the shrillness. ChaosMaster 02:20, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I think the earplugs part was added by someone playing the piccolo in a clique at Basler Fasnacht where you easily have 20+ piccolos in a formation. As you exercise indoors during the year, it is probably necessary to use earplugs. I play drums and if we have group exercises with our flutists I always use earplugs too ;-) --Goonies 13:12, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, ChaosMaster. TheScotch 07:01, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, i'm a high-school student and all the kids in our orchestra who play the piccolo are required to wear ear-plugs when we enter the 3rd-octave. Maybe it has something to do with age?

Or maybe it has something to do with a paranoid liability lawyer. TheScotch 20:41, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd say your orchestra director is just ignorant. When I played it in middle school, no one wore earplugs. Tell him/her that there is no reason why anyone needs to wear them, as there is no evidence that playing the piccolo damages hearing. People who have played it for years can hear just fine. ChaosMaster 00:51, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

ChaosMaster is an idiot. Not only did I wear an ear plug in my right ear while playing, so did the clarinetist sitting next to me in her left. The piccolo, when played correctly, is very loud (that's why you only need one) and the damage to your tympanic membrane is very real and very permanent. -- DKqwerty, 22 October 2007

Insulting solves nothing. Just because you wore an earplug does not mean that had you not, you would have sustained damage to your eardrum. Until someone provides proof that piccolos frequently play at decibels high enough to damage hearing, this is all just meaningless conjecture. I have never heard a piccolo play louder than other notably loud wind instruments, such as the trumpet, and I have never seen a trumpeter wear earplugs; consequently, I have also never heard of trumpet players going deaf form their own sound. The piccolo, when played correctly, is actually not as loud as it might seem; though it can have considerable volume, the reason one might hear it over a large ensemble is due more to the projection of its range than its loudness. The human ear naturally picks out higher notes, so when piccolos play extremely high, we can hear them more easily than the other instruments in a band or orchestra, similar to how a xylophone can be heard over the ensemble much more easily than a marimba, even when played at the same volume. It may seem extremely loud due to the brightness of its timbre, but its volume will never match that of a drumline, and I know many percussionists who never wore eardrums in marching band (though I know some do) who have perfectly fine hearing.

If you bring proof - measure the decibel level that a professionaly piccoloist normally plays at and find out if it's at a level that can harm one's hearing - and manners, I'll gladly listen to your argument, but for now you have achieved nothing aside from looking foolish with your childish insults and egotistical assertions ("I did it, so it must be true!"). And sign your comment properly next time (with four tildes). Chaau (talk) 13:37, 10 June 2016 (UTC)ChaosMaster (talk) 04:53, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi ChaosMaster. I was on a concert today and noticed that a piccolo player wore earplugs when she played especially loud parties. I decided to research this and found this article. I think it proves that because the source of the sound good close to the ear a hearing damage can happen. Check it out, the article give some reasonable explanations with the decibellevels. http://www.larrykrantz.com/flutesor.htm Chaau (talk) 13:37, 10 June 2016 (UTC) chaau

Its name in Italian is "flauto piccolo"

Actually italian name for piccolo is "Ottavino". Maybe this is an ancient name in italian language. If it's so, it should be satated out. --ChemicalBit 11:16, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, in modern Italian scores I have seen both "ottavino" and "flauto piccolo." --Number Googol (talk) 21:36, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Notability?

Who is Todd Goodman? If he's a notable composer, why does he have no Wikipedia article yet?

65.213.77.129 (talk) 19:02, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Vivaldi

It is known that Vivaldi wrote a Concerto for piccolo. Should we add this?? OboeCrack (talk) 13:31, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

It was not the piccolo as we know it today: It is usually now played on a soprano recorder. Ephraem 01:11, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Tuning?

Shouldn't there be a note somewhere on how hard piccolos are to tune and keep in tune and why(due to usually being made out of two or more different materials,if I remember correctly)? 4.131.206.203 (talk) 21:53, 19 May 2009 (UTC)(who is actually Doin'Huh3.5 but is too lazy to log in)

Not only is that original research without any references, it is of trivial importance to an encyclopedic entry on this instrument, especially since it varies by individual experience and musicianship (and possibly quality of the instrument). DKqwerty (talk) 22:14, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

May I suggest that articles on instruments state the fundamental frequency in Hz of the lowest and highest notes they can play? If there is variation in that range, say with different styles of the instrument, give that data too. It's a matter of scientific v. musical notationFriendly Person (talk) 03:47, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

The frequency in Hertz is dependent upon the precise tuning of the instrument. A is not always equal to 440Hz, for instance. Powers ^T 18:59, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Vivaldi

Antonio Vivaldi did, in fact, write concertos for the piccolo.

If necessary I can get former Metropolitan Opera musicians, among others, to confirm this for you.

This reference should not be removed.EnglishHornDude (talk) 00:38, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

There's no need to be so dramatic. If you simply listed a few here and gave a source or two to verify, that would led credence to your claim. Otherwise, it should be removed. And for the record, it's not a "reference"; a reference is what supports your addition, not the addition itself. DKqwerty (talk) 01:28, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, transverse flute players generally were not very common in Italy in Vivaldi's day. Quantz tells a story in his Versuch about his first visit to Italy, when he asked no less a composer than Alessandro Scarlatti why he had never composed anything for the traverso. Scarlatti made disparaging remarks about the poor qualities of the instrument and its players, and Quantz was obliged to demonstrate its capabilities. Scarlatti was very impressed (according to Quantz, of course), but nevertheless did not subsequently compose anything for the instrument. Vivaldi's six published (in Amsterdam) concertos for the (transverse) flute, op. 10, are in the main arrangements from previously composed recorder concertos, and the presence of a viola part in the orchestra indicates the intervention of a north-European arranger (Vivaldi's orchestral strings usually are restricted to two violins and basso continuo). I have no doubt whatever that Metropilitan Opera musicians can confirm that there are "flautino" concertos by Vivaldi that can be played on the modern piccolo. They can also be played on the accordion or the saxophone (with suitable transposition), but this doesn't mean that Vivaldi composed them for those instruments. As DKqwerty says, what you need is a source that argues Vivaldi meant a small transverse flute, and not a small recorder. I believe that, even if you should succeed in finding one, you will discover the great majority of references will be against you.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:44, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Regardless of whether or not these concertos were originally written for the piccolo or for the recorder, they remain a very significant part of the standard solo repertoire for the instrument. There are three such concertos, two in C major and one in a minor. I find it appalling that there is such opposition to the mention of these works, whether originally written for the instrument or not. There is so little solo repertoire for piccolo before the 20th century, it seems to me that mention of these pieces should be welcomed here. Such a shame that flute players and fans seem to care more about protocol than delivering valuable information.

Whether the pieces were originally written for recorder or not, the proper action would have been to correct my statements alleging piccolo concertos by Vivaldi, NOT to delete it. I find it appalling that the two of you seem to care more about correcting ME than about presenting valuable, factual information. EnglishHornDude (talk) 14:49, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Use of term piccolo

Currently the page reads: "The first known use of the word piccolo was in 1856,[5] though the English were using the term already some fifteen years earlier.[6]"

That sentence completely contradicts itself.

154.5.169.200 (talk) 17:08, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Well spotted. Have you checked the sources to assess their relative reliability?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 06:35, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Not a "half-sized flute"

All modern flutes go down to at least a C, and often to B. The piccolo only goes down to a D, and is therefore shorter than a half-size flute would be, as well as lacking in the foot-joint, and the lowest 3 or 4 notes.

Calling the piccolo a "half-size flute" is not unlike calling a ukulele a "quarter-sized guitar". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.89.176.249 (talk) 02:25, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Health Risk

We must add this section to prevent people from irreversible injuries when using this instrument

Because high pitched sounds do more damage to hearing than low pitched sounds, the risk of hearing loss is greater with the piccolo than with a traditional flute. Added to the fact that the piccolo is much closer to the right ear than a flute would be. The sound intensity level of the piccolo can reach 112 db.

https://www.uky.edu/~deen/Philharmonic/hearing_loss.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by CutterHammer (talk • contribs) 20:03, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/wp-solutions/2015-184/pdfs/2015-184.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by CutterHammer (talk • contribs) 20:05, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not here to right great wrongs. Any instrument can cause hearing damage. But every article on instruments should not include that. Why? I Ask (talk) 23:01, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

And to even consider including it, we'd need a WP:RS that specifically makes the logical connections you are making here. Not just "piccolos can be loud" and "loud can cause hearing damage" and "piccolos are short", but the entire combination of those ideas, and ideally how piccolos are unusually problematic compared with other instruments. Wikipedia editors are not allowed to synthesize ideas to make our own conclusions or give undue weight to one idea or one instance beyond what refs specifically support. That CDC ref is a good overall ref for "band instrumentalists" but only has weak support for highlighting piccolos and no support for it being because piccolos are specifically loud or short. DMacks (talk) 23:25, 3 September 2023 (UTC)