Talk:Phillip Adams (American football)

Heavy clean-up may be required

This article just got done being thrashed by a bunch of IP vandals, I will be going through and attempting to verify everything to the best of my ability. Sincerely, Deauthorized. (talk) 14:39, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Starting draft for the shooting

See Draft:2021 Rock Hill shooting — Berrely • ^Talk∕_Contribs 14:58, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Strongly urge to back off wording

The current reports (asserting Adams was the shooter and committed suicide) that I see all are based on the word of "one person close to the investigation", which is nowhere close to appropriate for us to use for BLP. A lot of care is needed here. --Masem (t) 15:55, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Keep in mind that even with the latest reports that say "The York County Coroner's Office confirmed Phillip Adams was found dead from a self-inflicted gunshot wound inside his father's home after a standoff with police.", we still need to be careful asserting he may have killed the other five, as the police have not identified the suspect yet. (His father's word is not sufficient to make that claim in a BLP). --Masem (t) 16:38, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

I agree and this should be put to rest at 2:30pm today when the police dept does its first public press briefing.--P37307 (talk) 16:41, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Now we're good to include it per the Sherriff's Dept statement. [1]. --Masem (t) 18:47, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Great, I'll add some info to the articles. — Berrely • ^Talk∕_Contribs 18:49, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

BLP/BRDP Edit

I have added "following a standoff with police." to the end of the last sentence in the lead section of this article, as this source in the article states that he committed suicide following a standoff with police. Sincerely, Deauthorized. (talk) 16:45, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Page move

Why was this moved to this new title? Other articles follow the convention of just "American football". This shouldn've at least gone through RM. — Berrely • ^Talk∕_Contribs 17:13, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Agreed, should have been at least some kind of community consensus. Sincerely, Deauthorized. (talk) 17:45, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

I moved this page back to "American football". Natg 19 (talk) 17:58, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 April 2021

I think you should include in his death section how he murdered 5 and possibly 6 people prior to the “stand off” where after an 8 hour manhunt his body was discovered at a nearby house to the murder scene. Include the names of the victims: Dr. Robert Lesslie, 70, his wife Barbara Lesslie, 69, 2 of their grandchildren Adah Leslie, 9 and Noah Leslie, 5. The 5th victim James Lewis, 38 was fatally shot outside the home. He did work there. A 6th victim, unidentified, was seriously wounded by gun shot and is in critical condition.

Source: https://nypost.com/2021/04/08/five-dead-including-two-kids-in-south-carolina-mass-shooting/ 2601:192:101:8580:74A9:37CF:BA6D:8610 (talk) 17:31, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

 Not done Per WP:BLPCRIME, we need an official police statement to say either he did it or he is the suspect in it. We know the police have a press conference planned in an hour and likely will confirm one of those states then, but right now, if you read through the sources, there is no official statement from police that Adams is the shooter or suspect to be, only second-hand information. (Very likely he was, and this information can be added once that is confirmed). --Masem (t) 17:38, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

And because someone questioned this on my talk page: WP:BDP 100% applies here - we consider the recently deceased as living persons under all BLP policy aspects for a period of several months. --Masem (t) 18:27, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Now that the Sherriff's department has confirmed he was the shooter, we can mention the crime, but the details are better at the shooting's page. I do note that we do not normally list victims names unless they were notable or other reasons for that. They would definitely be inappropriate on this page unless one or more of the victims were already notable. --Masem (t) 18:50, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Yeah I felt so as well, I'll remove the victim names. The doctor may be notable, but I doubt it. — Berrely • ^Talk∕_Contribs 18:53, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

To add to article

To add to this article: did he suffer from chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE)? 173.88.246.138 (talk) 20:19, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Per BLP/BRD, until that is confirmed by coroner reports/police investigation, its inappropriate to add speculation on the cause. Though we can carefully include what his father has said about his state of being in the period before that I've seen reported. --Masem (t) 22:51, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Mass murderer

He's a mass murderer, not a murderer. 24.24.187.216 (talk) 00:51, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

This article is already in the "American mass murderers" category. Sincerely, Deauthorized. (talk) 06:10, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

It should also be stated in the lead's first sentence. It's of great relevance to his life & death & should therefore be included there. Not mentioning it until the lead's second paragraph is insufficient weight. He'd be alive if he hadn't chosen to shoot several people. Jim Michael (talk) 18:02, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

No, just because he did the crime and is a mass murderer by definition, that doesn't necessarily make a key facet to start off an article with. Per both BLP and NPOV, we are to write neutrally and in an impartial tone that reflects sources, and the sources around Adams' death are not making it out as a premediated attack but due to his mental conditions from his football career. Thus, while we can't ignore that he killed people and then shot himself, its not appropriate as sources stand now to call him a "mass murderer" with equivalent weight as as football player. --Masem (t) 18:21, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Even though it's what he's best-known for? Most readers of this article hadn't heard of him prior to the mass shooting he committed. He has received media coverage since the shooting which massively exceeded that which he previously received. In a conversation about him, it would certainly be seconds before the mass shooting would be mentioned. There's no chance that the conversation would continue for several minutes talking about his football career, before it's very briefly mentionedu that he killed 6 people & himself. However mentally ill he may have been, he chose to go to a house & kill a family. Jim Michael (talk) 10:00, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Agree. Just look at the pageview statistics; it's unlike anything I've seen before. The way it's structured right now seems very WP:SURPRISEing; "journeyman football player, here's the teams he played for, and oh yeah he killed himself and also six other people." AllegedlyHuman (talk) 10:05, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Exactly, the large majority of people who know of him now hadn't heard of him until the last few days. Imagine having a conversation like that with someone. Talking about all the teams he played for, then briefly dropping into the conversation that he went to a house where he shot 6 people dead! Harvey Weinstein had a much longer, much more important career, yet no-one seems to want to remove from the first sentence of that article's lead the fact that he's a sex offender. It doesn't list his films first. The only disputes about that lead is whether or not sex offender should be replaced with rapist & whether or not it should precede former film producer.

There are many WP bios of sportspeople who have committed serious crimes. In some cases it's in the lead's first sentence, but in others - including Carlos Monzón & Jovan Belcher - it's not mentioned until late in the lead. In some - including Billy Papke, Jim Tyrer and Travis Henry - it's not in the lead at all. In the cases of Adams, Monzón & Belcher there's insufficient weight given to their crimes & in the cases of Papke, Tyrer & Henry even more so. Jim Michael (talk) 11:53, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

For BLP, there is no requirement that the lede sentence include why they are notable, but are required to be impartial and neutrally worded. The lede as a whole must address why a person is a notable, of course. Calling people out for criminal acts alongside their objective careers is something that has to be handled case-by-case. The case here is that no RS is flat out calling him a murderer. He did the shootings and killed himself, and on the books, that makes him a murderer/criminal/etc. (and there's no question of his responsibility either) but the RSes are simply not using that language given that the prevailing theory is that his health from his football career caused him to do this, and thus a victim of circumstance. If RSes are not routinely calling him a murderer, then we should not be doing that either as a key term. Now, that could change if the killings were truly motived, but at the present time, it would be widely inappropriate to add that. --Masem (t) 13:17, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Many RS clearly state that he killed the victims & himself. Many describe the killings as murders or as murder-suicide. The mental illness angle is an unproved suggestion & not all RS state it as fact or even as likely; some don't even mention it. Even if it's eventually proved, it doesn't change the fact that he chose to take a loaded gun to a house, where he shot 6 people dead. Whatever his motive, it doesn't make it less relevant to his life or death & hence to a balanced summary of him. In a year's time & in a decade's time, he'll be most remembered for shooting people. Jim Michael (talk) 15:03, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

We don't know that yet (per WP:CRYSTAL, that's why it is undue to add that at this point. If months from now, he's described more in RSes as the person that killed these people rather than as the football player or a person that struggled from a mental problem, then it likely will be appropriate to add that that early in the article. But right now? We shouldn't be doing that as that's a problem with WP:RECENTISM. Obviously, that he died after killing people can't be ignored and thus its important to spell out in full in the lede, but to call this out as the second major factor in the article after a football player is too much right now. --Masem (t) 15:41, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm baffled by your description of PA as a victim who struggled. Jim Michael (talk) 09:53, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Is "killer" or "mass killer" then sufficient for you? Per WP:PLA, we need to pepper it in lightly. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 15:37, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

This subject was discussed at BLPN. Archive link: [2] Morbidthoughts (talk) 05:16, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Race

No mention of race in this article. The wikipedia article about George Floyd indicates he was black man who died at the hands of a white police officer. Why is there no mention that Adams is black and killed 4 white people? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.144.160.37 (talk) 21:44, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

At this point, no one at all has suggested a racial motive for his actions. (The current thought is pointed towards his medical history). Unless the idea that this was a racially motivated crime is discussed in depth by reliable sources, we can't include that idea per WP:FRINGE. --Masem (t) 21:59, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

NFL career stats

NFL career statistics - if he had 5 Interceptions during his career, returned for a total of 2 yards, then the total average should be 0.4, not 2.0.194.28.127.53 (talk) 02:02, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

 Done I checked the source and it looks like this was just a minor copy and paste issue that needed fixing. Thank you for bringing it to our attention.  :) --Super Goku V (talk) 02:59, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Relevant discussion

Relevant discussion at

→ Talk:Phillip Adams#Requested move 11 April 2021

AllegedlyHuman (talk) 20:37, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Summary should mention that he was a mass murderer

Summary should mention that he was a mass murderer, as it is widely reported by by the consensus of reliable sources and is notable;

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/32866344/autopsy-ex-nfl-player-phillip-adams-accused-killing-six-people-shows-unusually-severe-cte-damage

https://www.npr.org/2021/12/14/1064130612/phillip-adams-nfl-player-killed-6-people-cte

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/09/sports/football/phillip-adams-shooting-nfl-player.html

////Tuffstuffmcg TuffStuffMcG (talk) 18:35, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Lead currently has He was identified by investigators as the gunman responsible for killing six people the day before, with a link to the article on the mass shooting. Currently lead has short paragraph on his football career, and then short paragraph on the standoff/suicide and the shooting. Seems fine as is. WikiVirusC^(talk) 18:48, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

i apologize, I didn't realize that it was after the photo and details. It's just that, against the insignificant nature of his middling NFL career, it seems at least notable in the Google summary that most readers of Wikipedia stop at. Is there a term for the lead that is actually read by most users of Wikipedia? TuffStuffMcG (talk) 20:07, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

I didn't realize the second paragraph gets pushed under infobox on mobile, I see now it does shows up like that. The Google summary(snippet is the term) isn't something that we concern ourselves with here even if they pull their information from Wikipedia. We don't control what their algorithm pulls, and we don't adjust things in hope to change that. You can call his NFL career insignificant or middling, he was known for his football career long before he shot people and it will always be a part of his identity. We updated the lead to include the the shooting and his death here, what Google takes is up to them not us. WikiVirusC^(talk) 20:17, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

None of those sources use the word "murderer" nor "mass murderer". Yes, they talk about the fact that he did fatally kill six people and the himself, but because all medical sources attributed this to his mental health, none of these papers are calling this the same as a mass murdered , a term generally reserved for those that go out on their own volition and intent to kill others. We mention that he did kills these people and then himself, but without realiable sourcing using the term "murderer" we can't go there with that. --Masem (t) 18:49, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Okay, I know this discussion is really old but this is really an absurd argument to make. Several reliable sources refer to him as having committed a "mass shooting" for one, or flat out calling him a murderer:

AP - "York County Sheriff Kevin Tolson told a news conference that investigators had not yet determined a motive for Wednesday’s mass shooting."

Sports Illustrated "You don’t want to defend a murderer, a killer of children; you also don’t want your son to think his daddy was entirely bad."

Indian Express "Explained: How former NFL star Phillip Adams turned into a murderer"

Also, many mass murderers (see Charles Whitman or Jared Lee Loughner or the Aurora shooter) are considered by reliable sources to have been motivated mostly by mental illness. That doesn't make them not mass murderers. Whitman, who died in the shooting and was not charged, is described in the first sentence of the lead as "an American mass murderer". In addition, he is dead, so BLP (the lead concern when describing people as criminals) does not apply. If we can't call him a murderer we can't call any mass shooter who wasn't charged in court (for example, the Columbine killers) a murderer. I don't really object to the way the article is phrased though. Maybe it should be rearranged a little bit - I don't really know PARAKANYAA (talk) 05:01, 4 November 2023 (UTC)