Talk:Peter Marino

Education and career section

Copied from my talk page and slightly reformatted for readability:

Hi Grayfell, I went back over the Education and Career section and made changes to remove any promotional language. Could you possibly look this over and tell me if it is objective enough? Then also, what is the best way to go about reinstating the corrected sections to the article? Do I make a new edit entirely or can I make changes when "undo"ing your reverts? Thanks.

Marino earned a degree from Cornell University’s College of Architecture, Art and Planning. http://www.surfacemag.com/peter-marino/ Marino began his architectural career working for Skidmore, Owings & Merrill, George Nelson, and I.M. Pei / Cossutta + Ponte. https://www.businessoffashion.com/community/people/peter-marino

In 1978, Andy Warhol hired him to do a renovation project for his townhouse on the Upper East Side of Manhattan http://www.surfacemag.com/peter-marino/ and then the new Factory at 860 Broadway. http://wwd.com/fashion-news/fashion-scoops/peter-marino-book-signing-dior-store-london-10442622/ That led to commissions from Yves Saint Laurent and Pierre Berge, Gianni and Marella Agnelli, and Giorgio Armani. http://www.architecturaldigest.com/story/architect-peter-marino-article

In 1985 http://wwd.com/eye/people/peter-marino-fashion-s-go-to-guy-3561494/, Marino was hired by Barneys New York to design the new women’s store concept http://www.surfacemag.com/peter-marino/ and 17 freestanding Barneys stores worldwide between 1986 and 1991. http://www.architecturaldigest.com/story/peter-marino-creating-and-collecting-art-article It was while planning Barneys that Marino met many of the fashion designers whom he would eventually design shops for, including Calvin Klein, Donna Karan, Giorgio Armani, Ermenegildo Zegna, Fendi, Chanel, Dior, Louis Vuitton, and Loewe. http://fashion.telegraph.co.uk/news-features/TMG10077044/Peter-Marino-the-flagship-fashion-man.html

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Emikey-34 (talk • contribs) 16:57, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

This is an improvement, but there are still some issues with sourcing and name-dropping.

• Details provide covert promotion. Not everything belongs in an article, and longer isn't necessarily better. Having wealthy or famous clients doesn't necessarily translate to encyclopedic significance. In other words, just mentioning these details isn't enough; the article should make it clear why they are worth mentioning.
• Interviews are not typically treated as impartial for obvious reasons, and to simplify, it would be a good idea to only use them for strictly non-controversial statements that belong in all biographies (education, birth-dates, that sort of thing) or for attributed content ("Marino has said...").
• The Architectural Digest article contains a lot of usable info, but it shouldn't be leaned-on too heavily for passing mentions, or to imply fame or significance. Warhol's role in his early career is well established by that article, but the rest is shaky. This needs context, not just names and wikilinks, and the (gushing) AD profile is thin on that kind of context. What does the profile actually say about the Agnellis? It says he did an apartment for them, and that he was influenced by her. Same with Berge. Not everything that's verifiable belongs in an article, and I would like to see more context to prevent insular trivia from dominating a WP:BLP.
• I don't believe the businessoffashion.com profile is a reliable source. It's not an article published with a named author and the presumption of editorial oversight, it looks like the kind of thing provided by publicists and republished without commentary. It's not academic, and nothing that transparently puffy can be described as journalism. Anything worth using from that source should be found elsewhere anyway.
• The WWD sources are bad for establishing significance. "Revamped" is vague, and if that's the only source mentioning The Factory, ax it. Penske Media Corporation is not automatically unreliable, but it's very heavy on PR.

My suggestions would be this. Figure out what's vitally important and stick to that. Barneys New York seems like a candidate for significance, as it's mentioned by many sources as being significant to his career, not just someone who's famous he's worked with.

Please do not be discouraged, but I do feel I should notify of one additional detail: If you or any other editor is being compensated for editing this article (by Marino or anyone else) you absolutely must disclose that fact, per Wikipedia:Paid-contribution disclosure. A paid-editor situation doesn't meant that you cannot edit, but it comes with limitations that need to be understood. Disclosure is not optional, and failure to do so will almost certainly lead to being banned from editing. It will also attract a lot of very skeptical scrutiny to this and every other article you've edited. If you are not being compensated, but know or work with Marino (or are Marino), please read about having a conflict of interest: Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. If this doesn't apply to you, my apologies, I do not wish to dampen your enthusiasm for the topic. Conflict-of-interest editing on Wikipedia may explain why this is such a significant problem. Thanks. Grayfell (talk) 00:29, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

@Grayfell: Thanks for getting back to me. I see what you mean now about the significance of details and how naming designers he has worked with could come across as promotional, even if that was not the intention. I'd also like to note that I am not being compensated by Marino and do not know him. I am a fan of his work and am interested in architecture and fashion (so this is probably why certain things seem more significant to me personally than the average wikipedia reader and I will keep this in mind). I changed some of the citations per your advice and removed mentions of fashion designers. Can you please tell me if this is okay to be posted?

Marino earned a degree from Cornell University’s College of Architecture, Art and Planning. http://www.surfacemag.com/peter-marino/ Marino began his architectural career working for Skidmore, Owings & Merrill, George Nelson, and I.M. Pei. http://www.architecturaldigest.com/story/architect-peter-marino-article In 1978, Andy Warhol hired him to do a renovation project for his townhouse on the Upper East Side of Manhattan. http://www.surfacemag.com/peter-marino/ In 1985 http://nymag.com/thecut/2014/12/peter-marino-doesnt-shop-at-department-stores.html, Marino was hired by Barneys New York to design the new women’s store concept http://www.surfacemag.com/peter-marino/ and 17 freestanding Barneys stores worldwide between 1986 and 1991. http://www.architecturaldigest.com/story/peter-marino-creating-and-collecting-art-article It was while planning Barneys that Marino met many of the fashion designers whom he would eventually design shops for. http://fashion.telegraph.co.uk/news-features/TMG10077044/Peter-Marino-the-flagship-fashion-man.html

I am also curious about the Architectural Digest article because it is already referenced in the wikipedia article where it says, "Andy Warhol was his mentor and early patron." Looking at the context of that statement, it doesn't seem to have come from anywhere, not even from Peter himself, and I haven't seen Warhol named as a mentor of Marino elsewhere either. Warhol simply hired him for some work early in Marino's career. Would that be grounds for removal of that statement? I think my sentence, "In 1978, Andy Warhol hired him..." sums up their relationship more clearly. Thank you for your help! Emikey-34 (talk) 23:31, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

Hello, sorry for the delay in replying. These are good changes, and I've updated the section with this info, altered to include some necessary formatting adjustments.

I'm reluctant to give too many specific details about the Barneys thing based only on interviews. Recollections like this should be supported by secondary sources to prevent self-aggrandizement from bleeding in, plus it was a long time ago. The NYMag source was just a churnalism rehash of a Vogue interview, which is what I used. The Vogue article did not actually mention 1985, so neither did I. It's a minor detail, but without a more reliable source, it's better to just leave it out. It's exactly the kind of thing that leads to WP:CITOGENESIS.

I agree that "early mentor" was probably a bit much, and rephrasing that was a good choice.

There's a lot of room for expansion here. Marino is a noteworthy and important architect/designer, but his connections to fashion and celebrity are making sourcing difficult, as there's too much noise from gossipy sources that don't meet WP:RS or WP:BLP guidelines. A recent lawsuit is an example, although that has also received some slightly more legitimate coverage.[1][2] The large number of interviews he's given are also, paradoxically, making it harder to find reliable information about him. Interviews tend to be what people want to present to the world without regard for what's encyclopedically relevant, and are poor for determining importance. Reliable sources about Marino which don't rely so heavily on WP:PRIMARY interviews with him would make this a lot easier. Grayfell (talk) 02:09, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

@Grayfell: Hi Grayfell, thank you very much for fixing the education section. I really appreciate your help with everything. Here is the award section. Can you let me know if this is okay and confirm that this isn't promotional: Marino was awarded the Chevalier de l’Ordre des Arts et des Lettres (link to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordre_des_Arts_et_des_Lettres) from the French Ministry of Culture in recognition of his significant contributions to the arts in France. http://www.vogue.co.uk/article/fashion-architect-peter-marino-honoured

Yes, the Ordre des Arts et des Lettres should definitely be included, and that's a suitable source. I would strongly prefer that it be included in the 'career' section, rather than a separate awards section, at least for now.

Incidentally, template:reply to only works when you remember to sign your comments. Thanks. Grayfell (talk) 23:54, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

@Grayfell: Sorry, I am still learning the ins and outs of wikipedia formatting. In regards to the "Selected projects" section that I initially added, what would be the best way to go about fixing that? I found individual sources for each significant project, but would that still be considered a directory if it is a list? Peter Marino's work with fashion designers and otherwise has of course been very important to his career and these are very prominent designer shops located in the most popular shopping districts in the world. I don't want it to come off as name dropping, so how do you suggest going about this? I also wanted to add some of his art exhibitions, so that would sort of be in the same realm of being a list format. Thanks again! Emikey-34 (talk) 23:40, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

This gets a bit... guideline-heavy. Sorry, I don't know any way around it.

Since he's prolific enough that listing every project is clearly out of the question, there needs to be some stricter criteria for inclusion. The most common approach is to limit such lists to entries which already have their own Wikipedia articles, or which have clear-cut claims to meeting notability guidelines. General notability is explained at WP:GNG, while architectural notability in particular is part of WP:GEOFEAT.

While not a hard rule by any means, prose is preferred for articles (per WP:USEPROSE, which coincidentally uses architecture as the example). If reliable, independent sources establish a project as being significant to Marino, then it should be possible to use prose to explain why it's significant. This is better for context, which is in turn better for neutrality.

If neither of those apply, then it's hard to see why a project should be mentioned at all, but it would depend on what sources are saying. Some passing mentions might be helpful for context, but it's hard to know what to include and what to exclude without making a judgment call.

For exhibitions, a listing of major exhibitions can be included, and there's a precedent for it on Wikipedia, but restraint is called for. As an example, Henry Moore is a featured article of length which only includes a single paragraph on it. Andy Warhol includes no such section at all. Avoid mere event listings or brief blurbs as sources for this. If there are no substantial sources about an exhibition or show, it's probably not 'major' by Wikipedia's standards and doesn't belong, but if there are a large number of lesser sources it could be reassessed.

I hope that's helpful. Grayfell (talk) 00:37, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

Notable projects

I wanted to add some notable projects and am also looking for images to include. I rewrote the article in my sandbox [[3]] and want to make sure everyone thinks it's objective and appropriate before making such a big change. I also updated a dead link. What does everyone think? Pinging @Grayfell: also, who has shown interest in the past. Emikey-34 (talk) 20:13, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Hello. Some thoughts:

What does "trademark minimalism" mean in this context? Is it Marino's or Armani's trademark? This is just one passing line which should not be over-emphasized. The same paragraph mentions exploding a tweed pattern into 3D, which really doesn't seem very minimalist.

The bit about the Ginza Chanel boutique needs better sources to go into such lavish detail. It only has one brief, relatively obscure source, while there are three sources for the condo in the next paragraph, which is 1/3rd the length. It is possible to reuse other sources within an article. See WP:NAMEDREFS for how to do that.

Speaking of which, is The Selvedge Yard a reliable source? I don't think so, it looks like it's a blog, and it only mentions Marino briefly, and the condo in passing.

The sources for the Shinsegae store are very weak. One is a listing that appears to be provided by the architect's firm (I'm pretty sure that's how ArchDaily works), and the other appears to be a brief press release. Nobody is denying that he did the work, but it's not clear why it belongs in the article.

The LA blurb has the recurring problem of being on the promotional side. Any subjective assessment of an artistic work should not be presented in Wikipedia's voice. Who is saying it was "designed to create an indoor/outdoor feeling"? Adam Tschorn? If so, attribute it to him and briefly explain who he is if it's not obvious. Then we have to assess why his opinion regarding this one store is important to the entire biography. It might be, but it's not always clear.

The NYT "Palace Maker" article is a lengthy profile that describes his personality, his relationships, his work-style, his personal fashion choices, but if the only thing that it's being used for is one or two significant projects which are barely mentioned, it's a sign that something is off. Something to think about. Grayfell (talk) 23:21, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback - I have some more time to look at this after putting out several work fires. I clarified the NY Times statement comparing Marino's use of minimalism with Armani's signature style. I added a few more sources, including a Vogue interview which shows why the Korean Boon the Shop project was significant for him. I also extracted some more info from the Palace Maker article, as you wisely suggested. It discusses his private projects, which are for privacy reasons not normally covered by the press. I deleted the Selvedge Yard source. It didn't really add anything although it does seem reliable. These projects I selected are the ones most interesting from an architectural perspective, but I'd like to add more down the road. I'm also looking for photos that can be used to improve the article. Words alone don't quite do the work justice, but at least interested readers can read the original sources. Thanks again for your help and critical eye. Emikey-34 (talk) 22:34, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Categories to keep/remove?

I just added this article to the 20th century american architects category, but then saw that the category american architects was already there. Is there a rule of thumb to keep the categories from getting too unwieldly - ie the more specific the better, and remove the less specific ones?Timtempleton (talk) 01:46, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Yup, exactly. See WP:DIFFUSE, and also Wikipedia:Overcategorization. Not all categories work this way, but many do, and this is one of them. Grayfell (talk) 04:30, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks!Timtempleton (talk) 07:17, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Photos of notable projects?

I noticed there are no photos of Marino's projects in the article. I think having them would improve the article, since it's hard to describe them in words and not be too promotional. I searched in Commons but can't find anything. I also emailed the contact addresses on his website but have not heard back. Is there a way to ask other editors if they can photograph the buildings and upload them? Anyone familiar with how this might be done on the Commons? Timtempleton (talk) 18:04, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

I found some images of these projects on their website and elsewhere and reached out to the photographers directly to see if they would let me put them on Wikipedia. If they agree I will try to add them, and if I get stuck I'll let you know. Emikey-34 (talk) 19:17, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

Clothing

To add to article: mention of his trademark black leather clothing. 173.88.241.33 (talk) 23:46, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

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