Talk:Perfectionism (psychology)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Against the categorization as a sickness

(translated from the discussion page of the german wikipedia)

Perfectionism is not just a sickness, but also the motivation behind a good part of (societally affirmed) outstanding achievements. This, admittedly, is not a scientifically founded opinion, but based on (un)common sense (which would be worse lol). I tried researching the topic on the internet. Even though authors frequently distance themselves from the allegedly predominant positive view, it seems there are no advocates of that position to be found anywhere. Even in the newer psychological articles, which make a point of not showing perfectionism as a sheer burden, are focusing on showing situations in which the condition does *not* have horrible consequences. Nobody tries to investigate what positive results can come from this personality variable. For me, this is mainly due to personal "happiness" being the indisputed judge of all things in psychology. "Addiction is bad, thus addicted people must be unhappy" (we just have to look hard enough), "Perfectionists are unhappy, thus perfectionism has to be bad"

In the english Wikipedia (at least until recently) the article on Wittgenstein commented, that he had excelled *despite* his perfectionism. I think this to be bogus, he could only have achieved what he did *because* of his perfectionism. Someone who has the goal of maintaining an activity percieved to be rewarding, will or can not question it unless an external (usually social) unignorable event causes him to do so. As such, perfectionists can think and act beyond the normal process of cultural evolution, by being to themselves better enemies than their peers could ever be. - by putting and having to put less products on the market of ideas, because they anticipate the process of selection on a long term basis. Good art is marked by "staying good", by being created for "eternity". Such creative endeavors are not continously motivated by society (on the contrary). The motivation has to come from within the artist.

I do not doubt that perfectionism has its negative aspects and can cause people to run into dead-ends. At the same time, I find it more than likely that there are ways out of these dilemmas that do not work along the lines of giving up the personal sense of aesthetics. As long as the diagnosis is investigated only as something to be avoided and overcome, however, these ways will not be found and documented in a findable manner. -Ados 20:00, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Perfectionism versus Pursuit of Excellence

"Perfectionism is not a good thing. It is often misperceived as a good thing, and it has been described as a good thing, but it is not. What is good is pursuit of excellence, which is something quite different." - James Delisle

I have noticed that most of the examples given here of positive perfectionism are actually pursuit of excellence. A packet I have here about perfectionism which unfortunately does not quote (most of) its sources shows situations of pursuit of excellence versus perfectionism:

Pursuit of excellence:

1. Doing the research necessary for a term paper, working hard on it, turning it in on time, and feeling good about what you have learned.

2. Studying for a test, taking it with confidence, and feeling good about your score of 96%.

3. Choosing to work on group projects because you enjoy learning from the varied experiences and approaches of different people.

4. Accepting an award with pride even though the engraver misspelled your name. (You know it can be fixed later).

5. Reading the story you wrote for the school paper and noticing that the editor improved the copy.

6. Going out with people who are interesting, likable, and fun to be with.

7. Being willing to try new things, take risks, and learn from your experiences and your mistakes.

8. Deciding to baby-sit to earn some extra money, taking a baby-sitting class through the local park district

9. Keeping your room cleaner and neater, making your bed more often, and putting your clothes away.

10. Taking tennis lessons and playing two or three times a week to have fun and joining a competitive league to challenge yourself.

Perfectionism: (numbers correlate with above)

1. Doing three drafts, staying up two nights in a row, and handing in your paper late because you had to get it right (and still feeling bad about your paper).

2. Cramming at the last minute, taking the test with sweaty palms, and feeling bad about your 96 because your friend got a 98.

3. Always working alone because no-one can do as good a job as you-and you're not about to let anyone else slide by on your A.

4. Accepting the reward resentfully because those idiots didn't get your name right.

5. Throwing a fit because the editor tampered with your work.

6. Refusing to go out with people who aren't stellar atheletes, smart, and popular.

7. Avoiding new experiences because you are terrified of making mistakes, especially in public.

8. Deciding to organize and run a baby-sitting service for all of the families from the local elementary school.

9. Not being able to leave the room until the bed and room are just so.

10. Taking lessons as often as you can, practicing every day, and not feeling satisfied until you can beat every other player in your league.

I hope the above makes the differences between perfectionism and pursuit of excellence clear. I am also adding another thing from this packet - dimensions of perfectionism, which does quote its sources.

Seems like the former is about the seeking of challenges, the other is about seeking of results. You succeed at the challenge for trying, a perfectionist however would avoid anything that he isn't awesome at. On the plus side, this encourages innovation and specialization. On the negative side, it can lead to complete self-blockade.

A problem imho with your examples is that the goals are kindof superficial, they're mostly about what other people expect you to do. It doesn't really matter whether you have 96% or 100% on a test, or if your friends are awesome or just great athletes. It matters though, if you spend your time doing standard empircal research and literature surveys, or if you're looking for that final theory that would make it all worthwhile. -Ados 15:09, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

It's true that personal goals are often determined by what seems desirable to you personally, but if your interest lies in the perception that you fit a standard then you will focus on standards and not on what is personally desirable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.9.45.237 (talk) 19:46, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

The problem may be one of definition. Some sources distinguish between normal/adaptive perfectionism and neurotic/maladaptive perfectionism. Others see perfectionism as by definition neurotic/maladaptive, and what others describe as adaptive perfectionism they define as something else such as “striving for excellence”. Unless there is evidence of consensus, I think the article needs to reflect both definitions.

Also, even in its maladaptive form perfectionism may have some benefits. Was Michelangelo a perfectionist? Contemporary sources describe him as exceptionally driven and not altogether a pleasant character. Perhaps he would have been a lot happier if he had just given the pope what he wanted and finished that bloody ceiling in half the time. But then would we have those marvelous frescos on the Sistine Chapel?

I’m not altogether happy with the Causes section (even though I wrote it – does that make me a perfectionist?) If perfectionism is a personality trait, it would be highly unlikely if it were not partly genetic. Theories about conditional love by parents and ev psych explanations seem very speculative. I think its ok to mention theories as long as it is clear they are theories. But some evidence would be nice…. Fionah 13:24, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

In my not-so-humble opinion, the main reason why there's a resistance to acknowledging the double-sidedness of perfectionism (and also ADHD) as a character trait, is because people involved in the subject belong to one of the following groups:

1) People involved in the education of the gifted. They're mostly in it for the satisfaction of (co-)narcissism, anything turning gifted children / academic excellence into something closer to normal human experience would be stealing their magic.

2) Teachers/parents/therapists of troublesome kids. They've got enough problems, and want simple/certain solutions to feel in control. Situations where something could be both an illness or a gift are confusing - it's gotta be either-or. Also, having exposed children to therapy and medication against something that was potentially beneficial would give them a major blues.

-Ados 15:44, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

---

Hi Fionah, I think your editing over the last month have made it so that this article can graduate from it's stub status. --P-Chan 09:53, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

"Perfectionism may be a legacy of our evolutionary past. Hominids who were motivated for prolonged, incremental improvement (perfectionism) could create better tools and this would provide significant survival advantages.^[1]"

Removed

Removed:

"Perfectionism may be a legacy of our evolutionary past. Hominids who were motivated for prolonged, incremental improvement (perfectionism) could create better tools and this would provide significant survival advantages.^[2]"

While in some sense this is surely true, it is overly simplistic, and is not a [i]cause[/i] of perfectionism. It does not explain why or how this tendancy emerged, or was caused, but says only that once it was present, it remained becuase it was in some sense useful and contributed to survival.

Removed:

Perfectionists may be workaholics who cannot relax; people who reproach themselves for days after the smallest error, such as a word out of place; the person so intent on finding the perfect mate that they never settle down; the procrastinator; the finicky person; and so on. Perfectionists tend to be exceptionally sensitive to criticism. Perfectionists often exhibit some or all of the following personality traits: emotional guardedness; a need for control; fear of making mistakes or errors; thrift; need to be above criticism; tendency to be stubborn or confrontational; and so on. Most of these traits are used as criteria to diagnose Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder (OCPD).

As this was lacking citations and it seemed redundant considering the other material in this section. lovearobot 19:12, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

disordered ramble

By: Prof Kevin. Was born to be handsome guy. The problem with perfectionism is that some people feel their sense of satifaction with life will be fulfilled when "it's all done"...The house is all cleaned, the children are getting straight A's, the grocery shopping is done, the career is going well, the errands are all done...but the problem is that the house is all cleaned only until the next week. The children are getting A's only until the next report card, the errends are done for today, but tomorrow there are more errands, more laundry, more goals to meet. So therefore, there is never real, actual satisfaction. Everything is being done to "reach" happiness. Happiness never acually materializes. If it could be "all done" then we could relax and enjoy. But that time never comes because it's never "all done"! Where is happiness with the full laundry hamper, the cluttered house, the full in=box, the empty pantry? Is this a normal societal view or is this a view that has been warped by societal "expectations"?

Just a comment on the perfectionism debate. People who suffer from -unhealthy- perfectionism are rarely aware of the destructive side of the trait. They usually feel it's a positive trait, and one of their core self worth building mechanisms. Any suggestion there is a need for change feels like a very personal attack. Something similiar is seen with anorexia nervosa (also an obsessive compulsive disorder). The wiki article on anorexia has a link to perfectionism. Looking up "pro-ana" gives some good insights.

Also, people who are healthy perfectionists (for lack of a better term) might feel offended to learn that there is a mental illness out there with the same name they use for their positive trait! (Has "perfectionism" suffered a kind of clinomorphism, if I understand the term properly?)

I suppose perfectionism needs to be broken even more clearly into two definitions for the same overused word. Maybe headings 2, Positive aspects and 3, Negative aspects, could be altered. Something like "Perfectionism the mental illness" might work? Much like "Anorexia Nervosa the mental illness" not much positive stuff there. Other obsessive compulsive illnesses could be used as a comparisson.

Heading 3, "Perfectionism in normal day to day usage" wouldn't be so touchy, it's about healthy, motivated people who can choose to work hard (but aren't workaholics!) and achieve high standards when they feel like it. Healthy people are capable of relaxing and feeling good, unhealthy perfectionists can't wind down or feel good about things, that's why phychologists and phychiatrists get involved.  :) --Yvan Roy 23:37, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

As overwhelming as that sounds, that's not perfectionism; that's just life. Everyone has responsibilities, and nobody wants to do them. But when you can't get your homework done, for example, because you keep throwing it away because you don't like the way your handwriting looks, that's when it becomes a neurotic problem. Basically, perfectionism is where you can't get anything done because you can never finish one task to your satisfaction. Perfectionists get so lost in the details that they never get to the big picture.

Cut from intro:

is defined as a meticulous pursuit to reach excellence.

More like an unrealistic idea of "excellence" or "perfection." Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go comb every single solitary hair in place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.251.82.150 (talk) 22:11, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

This definition makes it sound like a good thing. All the sources I've seen say it's not. I'd say the burden, therefore, is on advocates of perfectionism to find a source praising it. 21:04, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

I feel it's the burden of those who write against perfectionism to find a source that supports it, before they keep on writing against the predominant mindset of positive perfectionism. It makes it seem like they write against something they don't understand. -Ados 20:00, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Is it me, or does the article kind of make it sound like the thing that teenagers would do in their Livejournals? Surely the problem can be more serious than what the article describes? Escapeartist 21:14, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Is innaction due to the fear of not performing good enough perfectionism or somthing else?

When someone doesn't even start doing somthing, or stops before finishing and doesn't resume, for the fear they will not manage to get to a good enough result, is that perfectionism or is it somthing else? --TiagoTiago (talk) 03:33, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Is it still perfectionism if the person acknowledges perfection is impossible, but still strives to get as close as possible to it?

Is it still perfectionism if the person acknowledges perfection is impossible, but still feels compelled to get as close as possible to it? --TiagoTiago (talk) 03:36, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

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Student edit timeline, Spring 2012

As a senior capstone project, students are working improve the content of selected articles. More details are on the course page. Student first edits are due April 20, then we'll spend a week reviewing. Final project is due by May 14, 2012. Thanks for your encouragement and support. Greta Munger (talk) 15:18, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm the student that has chosen to improve the quality of this article. For the first draft due on April 20th, I have been focusing on rewriting the Definition and Measurement sections. I am debating deleting the Narcissism section, as none of the literature I have reviewed thus far references this in conjunction with perfectionism. Any opinions on this are encouraged. Additionally, I intend to edit the opening paragraph and add a section describing what other psychological problems are related to perfectionism (depression, anxiety, etc.). SarDavis (talk) 18:03, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Peer Reviews

Your opening statements are good, but I think you should include a subject in the first sentence, like, "Perfectionism is a personality disposition characterized by an individual striving for flawlessness . . . " There is also an extra "of" in the third paragraph of your definition section. I think it may be helpful to make key terms stand out by making them bold, like the three aspects of self presentation. It would just make your key points stand out and guide the reader toward what is important.

I thought the sections you fixed (definition and measurement) were really well written. They were clear and interesting. Nice job! Sarah E. Daniels (talk) 21:30, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

(1) "Individual" is a genteelism; similar to officialese. I changed every mention to its plain-English alternative: person, people, etc. (2) "An individual striving for greatness." The noun requires the possessive case because it precedes a gerund. So it's "an individual's striving for greatness." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fluous (talk • contribs) 03:53, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Peer Review 2

I agree with Sarah that your opening statements are well done. Your definition and measurement section are definitely easy to read and understand, and they provide a wealth of information in different aspects. I like the distinctions between different types of perfectionism and perfectionism in different realms. Quite a bit of your sentences and statements are cited which is good and shows you really did your research for the article.

I'm not sure what's going to happen to the (citation needed) sentences, but I still think you did a good job citing almost everything. The section on narcissism does seem a little strangely placed, and if you can't find research about it even after looking at what was already cited I would agree to delete it. Or if you could comment more on how perfectionism plays to an individuals personality traits in the Big Five, that would be interesting. Cjchaney402 (talk) 18:30, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Final Project Contribution

I have finalized my edits to this Wikipedia page. Since the peer reviews above, I have split the Positive and Negative Aspect sections and added significant content to each. I deleted the Narcissism section, and added a short paragraph at the end of the Personality Traits section. I reformatted the entire page by adding subheadings, internal Wikipedia links, bold words, and spaces to make it more readable. Additionally, I added 3 references since the last edit, which include:

• Brett, Bill. "Are They Too Perfect?". Boston.com. Boston Globe. Retrieved 12 May 2012.
• Rice, Kenneth G.; Leever, Brooke A.; Noggle, Chad A.; Lapsley, Daniel K. (2007). "Perfectionism and depressive symptoms in early adolescence". Psychology in the Schools 44 (2): 139–156. doi:10.1002/pits.20212.
• "The Downside of Perfectionism in Sports". Sports Psychology Today. Retrieved 12 May 2012.

The references that I had added previously are:

• Cattell, H.; Mead, A. (2008), "The Sixteen Personality Factor Questionnaire (16PF)", The SAGE Handbook of Personality Theory and Assessment 2: 135–159.
• Flett, G. L.; Hewitt, P. L. (2002). Perfectionism. Washington, DC: American Psychological Association. pp. 5-31.
• Frost, R. O.; Heimburg, R. G.; Holt, C. S.; Mattia, J. I.; Neubauer, A. A. (1993), "A comparison of two measures of perfectionism.", Personality and Individual Differences 14: 469–489.
• Hamachek, D. E. (1978), "Psychodynamics of normal and neurotic perfectionism", Psychology 15: 27–33.
• Hewitt, P. L.; Flett, G., Ediger, E. (1995). "Perfectionism traits and perfectionist self-presentation in eating disorder attitudes, characteristics, and symptoms." International Journal of Eating Disorders 18: 317-326.
• Mallinger, A.; DeWyze, J. (1992), Too Perfect: When Being in Control Gets Out of Control, New York: Fawcett Columbine.
• Rice, Kenneth G.; Ashby, Jeffrey S., Gilman, Rich (2011). "Classifying adolescent perfectionists." Psychological Assessment 23 (3): 563–577. doi:10.1037/a0022482.
• Stoeber, Joachim; Childs, Julian H. (2010). "The Assessment of Self-Oriented and Socially Prescribed Perfectionism: Subscales Make a Difference". Journal of Personality Assessment, 92 (6): 577–585. doi:10.1080/00223891.2010.513306.
• Stoeber, Joachim; Otto, Kathleen (2006). "Positive Conceptions of Perfectionism: Approaches, Evidence, Challenges". Personality and Social Psychology Review 10 (4): 295–319. doi:10.1207/s15327957pspr1004_2.

I edited some of the writing, removed unsupported generalizations, and made the prose more sophisticated. On the whole, I hope that my contributions improved this page significantly and that visitors are informed by the scholarly journals I have referenced. SarDavis (talk) 04:17, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

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Removed homicidal ideation

Removed:

Moreover, a priori labelling of perfectionism as adaptive is problematic because many people high on so-called adaptive perfectionism have a dysfunctional form of narcissism and/or homicidal ideation.

The citation does not back up this claim, and this seems very far-fetched. Drbgreen (talk) 09:46, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

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